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Schools closed until February? (part 3)

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    #4952
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    the kelt wrote: »
    So no resentment towards teachers on the thread?

    I'm not going to get dragged into this again, especially after the mod warning yesterday. Suffice it to say, I don't judge all teachers by the opinions of/ disagreements I have with the teachers on this thread.


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    #4953
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    Call it what you want, level 5, highest level of restrictions in the government planning scope. That's not the point though, is it.

    The point was in all this, you said that the testing (+ tracing) system as I referred to it as didn't collapse when that is a false statement.



    The media and the highest members of this government referred to it as a collapse. People were made to do their own tracing. I came to the conclusion it didn't improve because those people that were missed were just written off when a "reset" was declared, a phone line for schools was implemented apparently, but yet principals and school parents are still being let down without an efficient enough tracing system. And a great many people are not happy with the working definition of a close contact in the schools and take testing via gps or privately on their own. I'm not catstrophising, you're dismissing.


    I am sure you have checked the data and see the associated collapse in non hospital testing numbers?


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    #4954
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    HerrKuehn wrote: »
    we had remote learning before the summer did we not? That is what I mean by it was tried. I know some people would like it, but given the extra cost, the extra time required for development, the local issues like lack of broadband, the time required for training teachers, the relatively small benefit of having it etc etc, it was not deemed worthwhile I would assume. At least I have not heard anyone in government suggesting we should develop it further.

    No. We had homeschooling in which the vast majority of parents became the teachers off a list of work given to them by teachers, at best. There was no system in place by the schools (all generally speaking) or setup by the DES at that time.

    It's not that some people would like it, some people really, really need it.
    It has been deemed worthwhile apparently, and finally, because the DES issued a directive for schools to get it figured out.
    Some people are high risk, and there was also always going to be a need for students to use it when/if they become sick or need to quarantine. That's why the finally pulled the heads out and directed schools to do it.
    Also, Uni's have gone fully remote so it is possible...


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    #4955
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Boggles wrote: »
    The system was under pressure for a lot longer than 3 days and most certainly contributed to the peak we had in October which in turn leads to restrictions.

    That's not my opinion, that's what public health officials tasked with tracing was sounding the alarm over weeks before.

    You will notice testing only peaked on the same days the virus peaked and the 3 days where contact tracing fell down. The situation at the time found the limit of the system to cope, however we were lucky that this coincided with the impact of national level 3 coming in, with cases already on the decline when level 5 came in.


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    #4956
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I am sure you have checked the data and see the associated collapse in non hospital testing numbers?

    What on earth are you even talking about? :-s

    And again, what has that got to do with our discussion? I'm seeing a pattern. If you try and sidetrack, the original point you're losing on gets lost in the mud.


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    #4957
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,683 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You will notice testing only peaked on the same days the virus peaked and the 3 days where contact tracing fell down. The situation at the time found the limit of the system to cope, however we were lucky that this coincided with the impact of national level 3 coming in, with cases already on the decline when level 5 came in.

    So the public health doctors were wrong, they simply imagined they were overwhelmed for the weeks leading up to that?

    Cool. Good to know.


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    #4958
    HerrKuehn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    No. We had homeschooling in which the vast majority of parents became the teachers off a list of work given to them by teachers, at best. There was no system in place by the schools (all generally speaking) or setup by the DES at that time.

    It's not that some people would like it, some people really, really need it.
    It has been deemed worthwhile apparently, and finally, because the DES issued a directive for schools to get it figured out.
    Some people are high risk, and there was also always going to be a need for students to use it when/if they become sick or need to quarantine. That's why the finally pulled the heads out and directed schools to do it.
    Also, Uni's have gone fully remote so it is possible...

    Can you perhaps explain what you mean by remote learning? I am not being smart, do you mean streamed classes or what?


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    #4959
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You will notice testing only peaked on the same days the virus peaked and the 3 days where contact tracing fell down. The situation at the time found the limit of the system to cope, however we were lucky that this coincided with the impact of national level 3 coming in, with cases already on the decline when level 5 came in.

    Out of curiosity, what is the difference between "fell down" and "collapsed?"


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    #4960
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    What on earth are you even talking about? :-s

    And again, what has that got to do with our discussion? I'm seeing a pattern. If you try and sidetrack, the original point you're losing on gets lost in the mud.

    Well the contention is the collapse in tracing led us to level 5 which took down our case numbers. When in fact cases were already falling when level 5 came in, we had reached the peak, and the "collapse" in tracing did not result in lower testing or have any detectable knock on effects.


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    #4961
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Boggles wrote: »
    So the public health doctors were wrong, they simply imagined they were overwhelmed for the weeks leading up to that?

    Cool. Good to know.

    Busy does not mean collapsed. They were struggling, and reached a limit but we were lucky the level 3 impacts had kicked in


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    #4962
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    HerrKuehn wrote: »
    Can you perhaps explain what you mean by remote learning? I am not being smart, do you mean streamed classes or what?

    I think remote learning can look very differently, there isn't just one way to do it. You can also have a hybrid model, in which some students learn from home full time or some students learn from home part time, and some students learn in school full time.
    In general, I would say it is teacher/professional led and delivered via some kind of platform. It would also need a feedback from the student to send back completed work and to interact with their teachers and ideally other classmates.


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    #4963
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, what is the difference between "fell down" and "collapsed?"

    Fell Down- had an issue and recovered
    Collapsed - complete breakdown requiring massive remediation and resulting in long term consequences


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    #4964
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well the contention is the collapse in tracing led us to level 5 which took down our case numbers. When in fact cases were already falling when level 5 came in, we had reached the peak, and the "collapse" in tracing did not result in lower testing or have any detectable knock on effects.

    Sorry, who's contention was that?
    Of course a collapse in tracing would result in lower testing. I would say the people who got sick and suffered from this and may still even be suffering would not say that it didn't have any detectable knock on effects.


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    #4965
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,683 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Busy does not mean collapsed. They were struggling, and reached a limit but we were lucky the level 3 impacts had kicked in

    I didn't use the word collapsed.

    I'm telling you what public health doctors were saying weeks before the system became overwhelmed.

    But for some reason you know more than them.

    Or that lad that went public who waited 10 days to be contact traced in October was probably confused too?


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    #4966
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,683 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Fell Down- had an issue and recovered
    Collapsed - complete breakdown requiring massive remediation and resulting in long term consequences

    The bridge fell down.

    The bridge collapsed.

    You are not driving over the bridge in either scenario.


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    #4967
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Fell Down- had an issue and recovered
    Collapsed - complete breakdown requiring massive remediation and resulting in long term consequences

    Ha, the part in bold was true but you're the one who added "resulting in long term consequences" which is something you just made up on your own so as to not lose on this. LOL. :pac:
    That is not a measure stated or claimed by anyone else that I'm aware of. Are you?


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    #4968
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,683 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Biden says educators will be next in line for vaccinations after the vulnerable and front line health care.


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    #4969
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    Sorry, who's contention was that?
    Of course a collapse in tracing would result in lower testing. I would say the people who got sick and suffered from this and may still even be suffering would not say that it didn't have any detectable knock on effects.

    That's why I asked did you check the non hospital testing data. The reduction in testing coincided with the decline in cases, not the weekend blip.

    And again, our system has coped better than any other country in Europe and resulted in falling case numbers prior to implementation of Level 5.


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    #4970
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Boggles wrote: »
    The bridge fell down.

    The bridge collapsed.

    You are not driving over the bridge in either scenario.

    So you are saying people are not contact traced?

    I'm not claiming system is perfect but it's far from the worst in Europe and our infection rates show that. There ard a lot of countries who don't test close contacts without symptoms.


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    #4971
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Boggles wrote: »
    The bridge fell down.

    The bridge collapsed.

    You are not driving over the bridge in either scenario.

    I was thinking more of the Marathon runner who falls but gets back up to win a medal, versus the one who collapses and ends up in hospital


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    #4972
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,683 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    meeeeh wrote: »
    So you are saying people are not contact traced?

    In that particular post I was talking about a bridge being knackered.

    :confused:


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    #4973
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Deleted User wrote: »
    That's why I asked did you check the non hospital testing data. The reduction in testing coincided with the decline in cases, not the weekend blip.

    And again, our system has coped better than any other country in Europe and resulted in falling case numbers prior to implementation of Level 5.

    Ok hang on here, is this not common sense. Thousands of people fell through the contact trace and testing system, and you're saying it would not result in lower testing (than it would have if they hadn't of fallen through? obviously it would) and had no discernible knock on effect either. Explain that one.

    The last sentence of yours has nothing to do with anything and is just another pointless sidetrack.

    Edit to add, I'd actually like to look at whatever data you have showing case numbers were falling (and sufficiently?) before implementation of level 5. I can't remember stats then, or what the incidence rates were.


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    #4974
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    Ok hang on here, is this not common sense. Thousands of people fell through the contact trace and testing system, and you're saying it would not result in lower testing (than it would have if they hadn't of fallen through? obviously it would) and had no discernible knock on effect either. Explain that one.

    The contacts were still identified, they were messaged and told to isolated and to contact their GP's. And well I guess many must have, or at least broke the chain of transmission. We were testing over 100k a week at the time also, so 3,000 was a fraction of what was being processed at the time


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    #4975
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The contacts were still identified, they were messaged and told to isolated and to contact their GP's. And well I guess many must have, or at least broke the chain of transmission. We were testing over 100k a week at the time also, so 3,000 was a fraction of what was being processed at the time

    From the thousands of people told to do their own tracing?? That is and was very problematic, for obvious reasons.


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    #4976
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stateofyou wrote: »

    Edit to add, I'd actually like to look at whatever data you have showing case numbers were falling (and sufficiently?) before implementation of level 5. I can't remember stats then, or what the incidence rates were.

    Sure thing

    535657.JPG


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    #4977
    Blondini
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭Blondini


    HerrKuehn wrote: »
    Teachers don't do themselves a lot of favours with some of the stuff their unions come out with. TUI recently with the teacher fatigue comment, completely tone deaf. I would say this is where the general lack of respect for the profession comes from. I don't resent or dislike teachers, on the contrary I find their carry on very entertaining.

    One hopes that you wear your covid mask tighter than the one that accidently slips in posts like this. Hrmmpph.


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    #4978
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    From the thousands of people told to do their own tracing?? That is and was very problematic, for obvious reasons.

    Most people are responsible in spite of what some think and when told they are a contact will behave responsibly. The odds are those who wouldn't would not have their behaviour changed by a phone call


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    #4979
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Thanks Raind. Does that date of the very start of the decrease not coincide with the dates of the contact trace collapse?

    Then as we went into level 5, obviously the cases and therefore tests (and positivity rate) would begin to fall.


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    #4980
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    Thanks Raind. Does that date of the very start of the decrease not coincide with the dates of the contact trace collapse?

    Then as we went into level 5, obviously the cases and therefore tests (and positivity rate) would begin to fall.

    The cases detected in that time period were seeded 7 to 9 days earlier - just after the implementation of level 3


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    #4981
    HerrKuehn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    Blondini wrote: »
    One hopes that you wear your covid mask tighter than the one that accidently slips in posts like this. Hrmmpph.

    I am completely honest in my opinion of teachers/the teaching profession. I think there are a lot of jokers in it. It wouldn't be a profession I have huge amount of respect for (in Ireland). It is where some people who are a bit work shy go and are able to get some use out of their geography degree.


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