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Church influence down, morals changed?

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    #122
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I am pretty sure that Bush didn't say that at all. The war against Iraq wasn't pushed as a religious war at all. The vast majority of European wars have not been religious wars, even though people who fight may themselves be religious.

    Religious wars, properly described, were wars primarily about religious differences. Not even Northern Ireland can be easily described as that. Only to my mind, the 30 years war, the English civil war, and the Crusades amongst some others have definite religious only reasons.

    wiki says 7%

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war

    Capitalism, imperialism, stalinism and others have killed more people.
    Europe had 300 years of religious wars after the reformation. are you forgetting those? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion


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    #123
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    a small minority of fiends in the catholic church should not mean we completely dismiss the stability in society that a strong church provided

    im a non believer too by the way

    Except it wasn't just a small minority of fiends. They were protected by the organisation as a whole, helped by those in the church being unwilling or unable to speak out. Where protecting it's power and money was more important than the lives of the women and children in their care.
    What stability are you referring to? The only thing a strong church provided was a boot on the neck of those under it.


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    #124
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    You do not need the RC (or any religion) to impart morals.


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    #125
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    is there any anything incorrect in the posts you quoted? You have an issue with a poster stating things we already know. would you prefer if we didnt speak of such things again?
    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    I did. Just like you did ;)

    Actually, so how do I become a level 100 die hard atheist? I assume you're level 100 cause you are very good at deflecting. Like is there a group or rally I have to join?
    It's just my job takes up most of my time so I wouldnt be able to correct those 'religions people' online full-time :pac:

    that is the question i asked. you have not answered it.

    to answer YOUR question you just need to start thinking for yourself.


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    #126
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,182 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    that is the question i asked. you have not answered it.

    to answer YOUR question you just need to start thinking for yourself.

    But it was I who thought of the original question, before the question was asked, that lead to the question you asked yourself before you asked such question.





















    Am I level 100 yet? :pac:


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    #127
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    But it was I who thought of the original question, before the question was asked, that lead to the question you asked yourself before you asked such question.




















    Am I level 100 yet? :pac:
    yeah but if i said what at I would get banned.


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    #128
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    unfortunately what you describe as "political correctness" breaks down to simply "don't be a ****". People moaning because they can't be as publicly hateful as they could in the past.

    Yeah , that's the sales pitch alright


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    #129
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,182 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    yeah but if i said what at I would get banned.

    VIl9MW.gif


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    #130
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    And yet you can't quote a single post demonstrating that.

    Well let me put it this way, I get the feeling that if one were to go into the forum you moderate and post abut Islam they way you post about Christianity here, there would be forum bans before the day was out.

    By the way I think this forum as a whole should indeed moderate attacks on Islam. People fail to distinguish between radical and standard islam.


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    #131
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Europe had 300 years of religious wars after the reformation. are you forgetting those? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion

    No, they were included in the 7%. And even then the wikipedia entry I posted says you cant even say that many of these were primary religious.

    Edit:

    In fact so does your link.


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    #132
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No, they were included in the 7%. And even then the wikipedia entry I posted says you cant even say that many of these were primary religious.

    We will to agree to disagree on that. I think we can both agree that ireland is a better place without the malignant influence of the catholic church.


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    #133
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    We will to agree to disagree on that.

    We might agree to disagree but you are wrong. You can have your own opinions, but not your own facts. Religious wars weren't that common.
    I think we can both agree that ireland is a better place without the malignant influence of the catholic church.

    Yes provided the new Church of Woke doesnt become as intolerant, which I doubt. I think Ireland is a guilt and shame culture.

    My feeling is that anti Catholicism in Ireland is fairly rampant amongst people who dont particularly like the fact that we broke away from the Empire, and thus we over estimate the bad parts of our history while most European countries ignore the bad parts of theirs.

    Is it better now? The 90s and 00's were better but a new priesthood has arisen.


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    #134
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Deleted User wrote: »

    My feeling is that anti Catholicism in Ireland is fairly rampant amongst people who dont particularly like the fact that we broke away from the Empire, and thus we over estimate the bad parts of our history while most European countries ignore the bad parts of theirs.

    what sort of bollix is that? we dislike the catholic church because we want to be part of the empire? Get the **** out with that nonsense. I've read some ****e on boards but that takes the biscuit. the church history we have an issue with happened after we split from britain. You know, all the buggering of young boys, the church collusion in same, the throwing of babies into mass graves. that kind of stuff.


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    #135
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    uptherebels wrote: »
    Except it wasn't just a small minority of fiends. They were protected by the organisation as a whole, helped by those in the church being unwilling or unable to speak out. Where protecting it's power and money was more important than the lives of the women and children in their care.
    What stability are you referring to? The only thing a strong church provided was a boot on the neck of those under it.

    it educated an enormous number of people globally , those who taught did so for almost no reward materially


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    #136
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    it educated an enormous number of people globally , those who taught did so for almost no reward materially


    It (the church or the relevant order) got paid to do it. Also, can you just imagine the horrific stories that never/have yet to come to light about what went on abroad.


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    #137
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    it educated an enormous number of people globally , those who taught did so for almost no reward materially


    I'm not exactly sure I'd call it "education" - more indoctrination - but it wasn't a very pleasant experience for a lot of kids back in the day, and they were most certainly not doing it unrewarded and out of the kindness of their hearts.

    The Catholic Chruch is not exactly in a bad place, materialistically speaking.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #138
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    it educated an enormous number of people globally , those who taught did so for almost no reward materially
    Except it wasn't just education, it was education based on what they wanted to teach mixed with indoctrination. That is before we get to the abuses within religious run institutions.
    Don't these people believe their reward comes when they die?


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    #139
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    uptherebels wrote: »
    Except it wasn't just education, it was education based on what they wanted to teach mixed with indoctrination. That is before we get to the abuses within religious run institutions.
    Don't these people believe their reward comes when they die?

    By and large the Irish education system was secular in focus. People did State exams. The subjects were not religious, except for a class which wasn't in fact examined.

    No education system is devoid of some indoctrination though.


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    #140
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    By and large the Irish education system was secular in focus. People did State exams. The subjects were not religious, except for a class which wasn't in fact examined.

    No education system is devoid of some indoctrination though.

    Except 1. We were talking globally not just Ireland.
    2. Being thought by religious controlled institutions has wider issues than just religion class. Sex education, lgbt issues etc etc.
    3. You didn't mention anything of the abuses carried out.
    But hey it's all good because the students sat state exams.


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    #141
    iamstop
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 11,964 Mod ✭✭✭✭iamstop


    The sooner the notion that people need the church for moral guidance dies out the better.

    https://open.spotify.com/album/69JKwCcZGdLqX4Upj3DwP7



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    #142
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,504 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Morals, the Catholic church? You must be joking, a pyramid scheme with a history of murder, prostitution, extortion, paedophila, orgies, nepotism, fraud and just in general being a bunch of ***** to people.

    It's just an extortion racket, do what we say or else you go to hell. Don't forget to #donate. The Church is worth billions but local churches always have the hand out for more money to fix their roof. Various leaders have sold people titles, clemency, promised to get a loved out out of purgatory quickly etc.

    The history of corruption goes back centuries. The current Vatican bank closed around 10% of its accounts as they were involved in fraud. It is riddled with dodgy dealings. The longest running con trick ever.


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    #143
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,732 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    iamstop wrote: »
    The sooner the notion that people need the church for moral guidance dies out the better.

    I feel like if you removed the community and charity aspects of it, there'd be nothing worth saving about the Church in Ireland.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #144
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I feel like if you removed the community and charity aspects of it, there'd be nothing worth saving about the Church in Ireland.

    Aspects which could be done just as well if not better without them.

    To be fair though, these are my opinions on all rleigions, not just catholicism. People rely on the crutches too much.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #145
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    uptherebels wrote: »
    Except 1. We were talking globally not just Ireland.

    No we aren't. But Catholic schools tend to be fairly academic anywhere.
    2. Being thought by religious controlled institutions has wider issues than just religion class. Sex education, lgbt issues etc etc.

    Maybe, but every form of education has some indoctrination in it.
    3. You didn't mention anything of the abuses carried out.
    But hey it's all good because the students sat state exams.

    No I didn't but that wasn't the point I was replying to. I was replying to the claim that all catholic schools did in Ireland was teach religious indoctrination.


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    #146
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    don't forget the blessing for the Brits and the Normans to invade ireland came from the pope and our own church convinced us we deserved it for being sinners

    Yeh, the first is true. That said that particular Pope was English. So they have always been at it.


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    #147
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    agreed but there are aspects of a religious society which bring benefits , a society where " anything goes " will bring problems of its own and who,s to say that is the better way ? , we just assume it is because our liberal betters of today tell us it is

    received wisdom of today etc

    An absence of religion doesn't necessarily mean "anything goes". We have a legal system. You'd swear it was the fear of God that keeps people on the straight and narrow :D


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    #148
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    uptherebels wrote: »
    Except it wasn't just education, it was education based on what they wanted to teach mixed with indoctrination. That is before we get to the abuses within religious run institutions.
    Don't these people believe their reward comes when they die?

    do you think proponents of a wholly secular education system do not wish to indoctrinate ?

    your last line is just reductive


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    #149
    jaxxx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭jaxxx


    Religion did not come before moralily.. .. .. GTFO with that ludicrous concept.


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    #150
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    iamstop wrote: »
    The sooner the notion that people need the church for moral guidance dies out the better.

    so who will then provide moral guidance because vacuums are always filled ?

    perhaps Una Mullaly will appoint herself the new Mc Quaid ?


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    #151
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,732 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    so who will then provide moral guidance because vacuums are always filled ?

    perhaps Una Mullaly will appoint herself the new Mc Quaid ?

    People are not empty vessels for a would-be overlord to fill. They're capable of rational thought. The days where we needed the Church's perversion of morality are long gone.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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