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Church influence down, morals changed?

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    #92
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    timmyntc wrote: »
    Those behaviours didn't just appear with the advent of religion, of course not.
    But religion evolved as a tool to enforce those behaviours - and it's not exclusive to western religion.

    There is no such thing as "inherently human" though - human behaviour was not always rooted in cooperation. Civilization & the concept of doing no harm to others is a very recent construct in the grand scheme of things. Early man would not have survived if he didnt kill others.


    :pac:

    that is about the only part of that post that is true. religion is about control. Control by those who run the religion. Any benefits to others are incidental.


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    #93
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    Take some firefighter who's religious. He saves people because he feels God will protect him or should the worse happen he'll go off to a better place. That helps him do his job and save people. That's a good from religion.
    Well, it's not really. That's a guy who wants to be a firefighter and has his own motivations for doing so.

    It's not like without religion there would be no firefighters. So it's not a "good" from religion.

    We can point to plenty of good works done by religious groups, but that doesn't say that religion itself comes with inherent goods. There is no "good" in the world that is unique to religious or religious people.

    Religion is an emergent property of how humans learn and interact with their environment and nothing else. Religion doesn't shape humans into what it wants them to be. Humans shape religion into what they want it to be.

    The creation of organisations, in-groups, out-groups, ethics, cultural norms and rituals as well as co-operation and protectionism, are all things that humans naturally do with or without religion.


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    #94
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    that is about the only part of that post that is true. religion is about control. Control by those who run the religion. Any benefits to others are incidental.

    political correctness is about control but you have no problem with that


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    #95
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    political correctness is about control but you have no problem with that

    unfortunately what you describe as "political correctness" breaks down to simply "don't be a ****". People moaning because they can't be as publicly hateful as they could in the past.


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    #96
    timmyntc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,901 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    that is about the only part of that post that is true. religion is about control. Control by those who run the religion. Any benefits to others are incidental.

    Not all religion = organised religion.
    Organised religion is about control, but religion is not. Religion is just a set of beliefs.

    Some organised religions might be about control to exploit people/get rich (scientology anyone?) but others may well be benevolent (at first) - the problem is that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So inevitably an undemocratic org like a church will end up corrupt.

    In most if not all organised religions, over time they end up corrupt. But the idea that they are not initially set up for any benefit is just a baseless claim from yourself.


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    #97
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    timmyntc wrote: »
    Not all religion = organised religion.
    Organised religion is about control, but religion is not. Religion is just a set of beliefs.

    Some organised religions might be about control to exploit people/get rich (scientology anyone?) but others may well be benevolent (at first) - the problem is that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So inevitably an undemocratic org like a church will end up corrupt.

    In most if not all organised religions, over time they end up corrupt. But the idea that they are not initially set up for any benefit is just a baseless claim from yourself.

    considering this thread is about the catholic church it is safe to assume we are talking about organised religion.


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    #98
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,732 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    You have a raging hard on for religion. I think the international space station can see this :p
    I have read your posts in this thread, obviously including the nit picking one you quoted me on, which you chose not to reply to as I pointed out your incorrect use of "justified" - thank you very much.

    We get it. You absolutely hate religion. So please could you add something constructive to this rather than your anti-religion bile... Because the grown ups are talking.

    It's like a f*cking cult, it really is. The fact that you have to come out with victimhood sh*te like this is just weak to be honest.

    You can either make a positive case for religion in the 21st century or you can turn it into yet more anti-woke/PC, culture war scutter and you've clearly plumped for the latter option.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #99
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,182 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It's like a f*cking cult, it really is. The fact that you have to come out with victimhood sh*te like this is just weak to be honest.

    You can either make a positive case for religion in the 21st century or you can turn it into yet more anti-woke/PC, culture war scutter and you've clearly plumped for the latter option.

    See, you are not reading posts! :pac:

    Remember that first post you quoted me? well here it is again...
    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    The church got too greedy and doing horrible things became the norm for a lot of priests (alter boys and the like) so the churches popularity going down was always gonna happen when it all came out and people having enough.
    Sure didn't Martin Luther have enough centuries ago as the priests were going around all rich. Guess it's rinse and repeat.

    You are cherry picking posts and twisting things so you can post your bile :p
    see, you'd love for some user to come on here spouting the bible and saying how religion is great, right?
    Just so you could take down your pants in preparation of the reply you will give them ;)
    But since no one is doing that, you want to take anything you can use to post your bile :pac:

    I see this.


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    #100
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    I am a great fan of the ten commandments myself, they have stood the test of time pretty well. They are not a bad set of rules to follow whilst surviving the mayhem. They work out.

    I don't fancy the concept of eternal life, it sounds really really boring. Can you imagine spending for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever etc ?

    I reckon it is a fairy story made up to keep the masses in line, it may not have been a bad idea either, motivation is important. People need some sort of scope or the Devil creeps in, he is a real bitch btw.


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    #101
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,732 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    See, you are not reading posts! :pac:

    Remember that first post you quoted me? well here it is again...



    You are cherry picking posts and twisting things so you can post your bile :p
    see, you'd love for some user to come on here spouting the bible and saying how religion is great, right?
    Just so you could take down your pants in preparation of the reply you will give them ;)
    But since no one is doing that, you want to take anything you can use to post your bile :pac:

    I see this.

    You were on about some mythical firefighter and I asked about atheists in that profession and you start on with your victim spiel.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #102
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,182 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    seamus wrote: »
    Well, it's not really. That's a guy who wants to be a firefighter and has his own motivations for doing so.

    It's not like without religion there would be no firefighters. So it's not a "good" from religion.

    A fair point.
    seamus wrote: »
    We can point to plenty of good works done by religious groups, but that doesn't say that religion itself comes with inherent goods. There is no "good" in the world that is unique to religious or religious people.
    But doesn't that also mean that any good from religious groups is also self motivated - feel good about themselves.
    seamus wrote: »
    Religion is an emergent property of how humans learn and interact with their environment and nothing else. Religion doesn't shape humans into what it wants them to be. Humans shape religion into what they want it to be.

    I really agree with that line.
    Overall, that also means religions aren't necessarily bad - it's people that are bad. Not everyone of course.


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    #103
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,182 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    You were on about some mythical firefighter and I asked about atheists in that profession and you start on with your victim spiel.

    You're clutching at straws mate.
    Look, you think of am some bible thumper (or whatever) and I think you love to post your hated of religion at any chance.

    Woop-dee-doo. Now what? around the merry go round we go? or we can both accept we don't care what the other thinks...


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    #104
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,732 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    You're clutching at straws mate.
    Look, you think of am some bible thumper (or whatever) and I think you love to post your hated of religion at any chance.

    Woop-dee-doo. Now what? around the merry go round we go? or we can both accept we don't care what the other thinks...

    Where have I posted that I hate religion here? Quote please.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #105
    stoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,610 ✭✭✭stoneill


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    that is about the only part of that post that is true. religion is about control. Control by those who run the religion. Any benefits to others are incidental.

    Totally agree, I always though how brilliant the concept of confession is.
    Imagine the total power you have with all the kings and queens of Europe willingly telling you everything that's going on under the guise of confession - the church knew everything, no wonder they had so much power and influence.


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    #106
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    stoneill wrote: »
    Totally agree, I always though how brilliant the concept of confession is.
    Imagine the total power you have with all the kings and queens of Europe willingly telling you everything that's going on under the guise of confession - the church knew everything, no wonder they had so much power and influence.

    Scientology does the same thing with its "auditing".


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    #107
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,182 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Where have I posted that I hate religion here? Quote please.

    Well ...
    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It's like a f*cking cult, it really is.
    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    As I recall, yes. Funny how the defenders of Christianity will gleefully ignore all of it save for the handy bits they can use to justify atrocities and oppression.
    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Shame aul JC didn't take an interest in his priests when they were molesting children and his pope when he was promoting and waging wars.


    ... Come on now I don't think it would take an FBI profiler :pac:


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    #108
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,732 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    Well ...






    ... Come on now I don't think it would take an FBI profiler :pac:

    The first refers to the equating of criticism with hatred, the second is about religious hypocrites and the last is about inconsistency.

    If that's really the best you can do, leaving it there might be best.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #109
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    Well ...






    ... Come on now I don't think it would take an FBI profiler :pac:

    is there any anything incorrect in the posts you quoted? You have an issue with a poster stating things we already know. would you prefer if we didnt speak of such things again?


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    #110
    RonaVirus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 114 ✭✭RonaVirus


    zanador wrote: »
    Yes, they definitely have, since the fall of the church we have started caring for our LGBTQ communities, have supported women in their choices, have allowed unhappy couple to divorce, and also are hopefully on the road to stop judging women for having sex. That's a bit far off though I'd say from some posters..

    Anyhoo, our morals have changed to more care for each other and less judgement on actions so my answer is yes.

    Changed for the worse right?


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    #111
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,182 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    is there any anything incorrect in the posts you quoted? You have an issue with a poster stating things we already know. would you prefer if we didnt speak of such things again?

    If he don't hate religion then i'm chinese :p
    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    The first refers to the equating of criticism with hatred, the second is about religious hypocrites and the last is about inconsistency.

    If that's really the best you can do, leaving it there might be best.

    Dude, you clearly hate it (and thats ok) but not admitting to it, after all that you have have said, speaks volumes to what type of character you have.

    but you're right. leaving there is best.


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    #112
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    If he don't hate religion then i'm chinese :p

    perhaps try to answer the question instead of deflecting


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    #113
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    stoneill wrote: »
    Totally agree, I always though how brilliant the concept of confession is.
    Imagine the total power you have with all the kings and queens of Europe willingly telling you everything that's going on under the guise of confession - the church knew everything, no wonder they had so much power and influence.

    It gives you power over regular people too. I was 7 when I had my first confession and the priest was already asking me about unclean thoughts. At 7 I had no idea what he even meant... but that's how they start controlling sexuality. Strangers interrogating 7 year olds on their sexual habits and penalising any - it's a ridiculous concept if you take it out of church context yet here we are!

    Glad to see the demise of that for sure. It has nothing to do with ethics and everything to do with control.


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    #114
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,182 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    perhaps try to answer the question instead of deflecting

    Ok... heres the answer.
    You don't post things like he did unless you really despise something. You can not post those things and love religion. He hates religion :) fair enough! Just call a spade a spade... that's my point. is that ok with you tho? :pac:


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    #115
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    Ok... heres the answer.
    You don't post things like he did unless you really despise something. You can not post those things and love religion. He hates religion :) fair enough! Just call a spade a spade... that's my point. is that ok with you tho? :pac:

    yeah that wasnt the question I asked.


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    #116
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,732 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    Ok... heres the answer.
    You don't post things like he did unless you really despise something. You can not post those things and love religion. He hates religion :) fair enough! Just call a spade a spade... that's my point. is that ok with you tho? :pac:

    And yet you can't quote a single post demonstrating that.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #117
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,182 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    yeah that wasnt the question I asked.

    giphy.gif
    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    perhaps try to answer the question instead of deflecting

    Now who's deflecting haha.


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    #118
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It's like a f*cking cult, it really is. The fact that you have to come out with victimhood sh*te like this is just weak to be honest.

    You can either make a positive case for religion in the 21st century or you can turn it into yet more anti-woke/PC, culture war scutter and you've clearly plumped for the latter option.

    Well, that is an incoherent rant.


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    #119
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,277 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    giphy.gif



    Now who's deflecting haha.

    not me. I asked you a straighforward question and you have refused to answer it.


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    #120
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    As I recall, yes. Funny how the defenders of Christianity will gleefully ignore all of it save for the handy bits they can use to justify atrocities and oppression.

    I am pretty sure that Bush didn't say that at all. The war against Iraq wasn't pushed as a religious war at all. The vast majority of European wars have not been religious wars, even though people who fight may themselves be religious.

    Religious wars, properly described, were wars primarily about religious differences. Not even Northern Ireland can be easily described as that. Only to my mind, the 30 years war, the English civil war, and the Crusades amongst some others have definite religious only reasons.

    wiki says 7%

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war

    Capitalism, imperialism, stalinism and other modern philosophies, often humanistic, have killed more people.


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    #121
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,182 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    not me. I asked you a straighforward question and you have refused to answer it.

    I did. Just like you did ;)

    Actually, so how do I become a level 100 die hard atheist? I assume you're level 100 cause you are very good at deflecting. Like is there a group or rally I have to join?
    It's just my job takes up most of my time so I wouldnt be able to correct those 'religions people' online full-time :pac:


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