Church influence down, morals changed?

B.A._Baracus

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There's far too many blatantly incorrect statements here.

Do you think it wasn't every man for himself in the dark ages or in the stone age? Seriously? It's always been there and all Christianity does is to justify this. God helps those who help themselves after all.

Morals are down to the individual to decide and certainly not for an organisation that employs and defends child molesters to have the final say on.

If you want to know why people are ditching God, look at his Church. It's putrid, squalid and venal. I see no reason to continue supporting it.

It never justified it. It tried to control it - "dont you dare have sex out of wed lock or burn in hell sinner!!!!" - that's hardly justifying it. That's control. Which is wrong by the way!

Vic_08

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

A grarantee you, very few people in Berlin miss the wall. I'm guessing very few miss the authority of the chruch, too.

You'd be surprised. Plenty of East Germans waxing lyrical about the DDR, dig down and they are mostly ex-Stasi pricks. Of course these are the same kuntbags who would have been first in line to eradicate Jews for Hitler, rape and pillage on crusades or burn witches in the name of Christ.

No shortage of these types anywhere happy to pledge allegiance to whichever religion or political movement has the biggest power base at the time. Always the most vocal with their piousness and "morality".

There are plenty of true believers and do-gooders in religions but there isn't an organised religion or political movement going that isn't swelled by power hungry sociopaths who know that feigning belief is an excellent vehicle for personal advancement and opportunities to abuse and subjugate with impunity.

Mad_maxx

_Brian wrote: »

Morals of society have changed but who says the morals imposed by the church were correct for society anyway.

agreed but there are aspects of a religious society which bring benefits , a society where " anything goes " will bring problems of its own and who,s to say that is the better way ? , we just assume it is because our liberal betters of today tell us it is

received wisdom of today etc

RobbieTheRobber

Mad_maxx wrote: »

agreed but there are aspects of a religious society which bring benefits , a society where " anything goes " will bring problems of its own and who,s to say that is the better way ? , we just assume it is because our liberal betters of today tell us it is

received wisdom of today etc

When you say there are aspects of a religious society that brings benefits what do you mean?
Are the benefits derived from the religious belief or from society (community) . If they are not directly as a result of the religious belief then surely these same benefits can still be derived by the society without the religion

completedit

It is actually very interesting to think about what a purely individualistic world would look like. Or would such a world exist? Would our search for purpose and meaning lead to us devoting our lives to some other deity? Perhaps the nation state was a natural replacement but even that is an illusion and no more real than the Catholic Church. Do we really believe that each generation becomes morally better than the past and that all our values are essentially better because we exist in the only future we know? I don't think so. The abortion debate to me is the most obvious example. There are very clear reasons to be vehemently opposed to abortion, as well as for it, but the debates made it seem like a simple choice with a clear bias towards 'her right to choose'. It just seemed clear to me at the time that this mindset would be something we'd look back on in the future and be horrified to find out about.

Also, why do we equate liberal values as necessarily good values? A friend of mine said to me the other day ''Did you know the Republicans used to be the good party in America''

Mad_maxx

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

When you say there are aspects of a religious society that brings benefits what do you mean?
Are the benefits derived from the religious belief or from society (community) . If they are not directly as a result of the religious belief then surely these same benefits can still be derived by the society without the religion

living by a set of codes - rules etc , much of what is taught in christianity is a good roadmap for life

the community one is also important , no reference to individual profiles unlike the scourge of identity politics which does nothing but breed grievance and make official both victims and oppressors , thus rubber stamping division

Mad_maxx

completedit wrote: »

It is actually very interesting to think about what a purely individualistic world would look like. Or would such a world exist? Would our search for purpose and meaning lead to us devoting our lives to some other deity? Perhaps the nation state was a natural replacement but even that is an illusion and no more real than the Catholic Church. Do we really believe that each generation becomes morally better than the past and that all our values are essentially better because we exist in the only future we know? I don't think so. The abortion debate to me is the most obvious example. There are very clear reasons to be vehemently opposed to abortion, as well as for it, but the debates made it seem like a simple choice with a clear bias towards 'her right to choose'. It just seemed clear to me at the time that this mindset would be something we'd look back on in the future and be horrified to find out about.

Also, why do we equate liberal values as necessarily good values? A friend of mine said to me the other day ''Did you know the Republicans used to be the good party in America''

because we are bombarded with the message that liberal values are the correct ones to hold , its not respectable to not hold those values and people hate not being respectable

ohnonotgmail

Mad_maxx wrote: »

agreed but there are aspects of a religious society which bring benefits , a society where " anything goes " will bring problems of its own and who,s to say that is the better way ? , we just assume it is because our liberal betters of today tell us it is

received wisdom of today etc

benefits to who, exactly? benefits to whoever the church decides should benefit. Everybody else can go **** themselves.

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

agreed but there are aspects of a religious society which bring benefits , a society where " anything goes " will bring problems of its own and who,s to say that is the better way ? , we just assume it is because our liberal betters of today tell us it is

received wisdom of today etc

Where anything goes? What stops people doing harm to others isn't because of a sky god, but because of the threat of someone from AGS feeling their collar, who derive their authority from the people, Anything doesn't Go.

ohnonotgmail

Mad_maxx wrote: »

living by a set of codes - rules etc , much of what is taught in christianity is a good roadmap for life

the community one is also important , no reference to individual profiles unlike the scourge of identity politics which does nothing but breed grievance and make official both victims and oppressors , thus rubber stamping division

Do you need the church to tell you that you shouldn't lie, cheat, steal, murder?

Mad_maxx

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

benefits to who, exactly? benefits to whoever the church decides should benefit. Everybody else can go **** themselves.

im not sure it was ever like that while admitting there were serious examples of gross hypocrasy

ohnonotgmail

Mad_maxx wrote: »

im not sure it was ever like that while admitting there were serious examples of gross hypocrasy

it was exactly like that. If you didn't confirm to the church you were condemned from the pulpit.

Mad_maxx

Deleted User wrote: »

Where anything goes? What stops people doing harm to others isn't because of a sky god, but because of the threat of someone from AGS feeling their collar, who derive their authority from the people, Anything doesn't Go.

oh please , any amount of people have no fear of the law as it takes such a lenient approach

why has crime gone up as faith has fallen amongst the population ?

the state cant perfect people , neither can faith but it has been useful for keeping behaviour in check down the centuries , that is an upside

Mad_maxx

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Do you need the church to tell you that you shouldn't lie, cheat, steal, murder?

cheating is seen as ok by the new moral guardians if the right people are engaged in it ( the left tell them its the fault of society and down to inequality etc ) , in the past there was a lot less murder too

ohnonotgmail

Mad_maxx wrote: »

oh please , any amount of people have no fear of the law as it takes such a lenient approach

why has crime gone up as faith has fallen amongst the population ?

the state cant perfect people , neither can faith but it has been useful for keeping behaviour in check down the centuries , that is an upside

more crime or more reported crime?

ohnonotgmail

Mad_maxx wrote: »

cheating is seen as ok by the new moral guardians if the right people are engaged in it ( the left tell them its the fault of society and down to inequality etc ) , in the past there was a lot less murder too

spare me this "lefty" bollix. try to debate intelligently.

Tchaikovsky

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a new religion to fill the God-shaped hole. It is called political correctness. We all have to say and do the prescribed things. Travellers are an ethic group. Refugees welcome here. Believe women. Love is love.

Woe betide anyone who disagrees with the new doctrine. They need to be dragged around and publicly shamed into grovelling apologies, or risk having their careers ended.

It's the same cult of group compliance and shaming, just with different labels.

Except those things are actually about compassion and not a hypocritical approach to 'holiness'.

Mules

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it was exactly like that. If you didn't confirm to the church you were condemned from the pulpit.

Now public figures are cancelled/ ostracised if they don't conform to PC doctrine. It's two sides of the same coin. Authoritarian types will always find a way to tell people what they should and should not be doing/thinking.

ohnonotgmail

Mules wrote: »

Now people are cancelled if they don't conform to PC doctrine. It's two sides of the same coin. Authoritarian types will always find a way to tell people what they should and should not be doing.

cancelled? JFC. and you probably call people on the left snowflakes.

timmyntc

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Do you need the church to tell you that you shouldn't lie, cheat, steal, murder?

But why are lying, cheating. stealing, murdering bad things?

Nowadays I don't need a church or religion to tell me what to do and what not to do, I can identify that for myself. But you have to acknowledge the role religion has played in the past in shaping the morals of our society.


A smart person can see the effect that "bad" behaviours have on society. That if we are to have a well functioning society, we need everyone to play by a certain set of rules. This is grand for people of a certain IQ and above, but plenty of people are/were too stupid to realise the impacts that stealing/cheating/murdering would have on society they live in.

Enter, religion.
The people who would otherwise have trouble grasping the consequences of their actions are now presented with a simple explanation - these things good, those things bad. You do bad things, you burn in hell. You do good things you live forever in heaven.

Religion isn't as necessary now because our society can stand on its own, we dont need religion to enforce morals & the law, society can do that instead.

Mules

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

cancelled? JFC. and you probably call people on the left snowflakes.

I do

ohnonotgmail

timmyntc wrote: »

But why are lying, cheating. stealing, murdering bad things?

Nowadays I don't need a church or religion to tell me what to do and what not to do, I can identify that for myself. But you have to acknowledge the role religion has played in the past in shaping the morals of our society.


A smart person can see the effect that "bad" behaviours have on society. That if we are to have a well functioning society, we need everyone to play by a certain set of rules. This is grand for people of a certain IQ and above, but plenty of people are/were too stupid to realise the impacts that stealing/cheating/murdering would have on society they live in.

Enter, religion.
The people who would otherwise have trouble grasping the consequences of their actions are now presented with a simple explanation - these things good, those things bad. You do bad things, you burn in hell. You do good things you live forever in heaven.

Religion isn't as necessary now because our society can stand on its own, we dont need religion to enforce morals & the law, society can do that instead.

religion didn't shape those behaviours. it reflected what people were already doing. in societies that western religion have never touched they have the same prohibitions broadly. It is inherently human. that you need someone to tell you not to do these things is a reflection of you.

RobbieTheRobber

Mad_maxx wrote: »

living by a set of codes - rules etc , much of what is taught in christianity is a good roadmap for life

the community one is also important , no reference to individual profiles unlike the scourge of identity politics which does nothing but breed grievance and make official both victims and oppressors , thus rubber stamping division

You didnt really answer my question. You say religion gives a good set of rules or a roadmap. but I'll ask again which of the rules of your preferred belief and the associated value to society can only be derived by the involvement of religion.

Mad_maxx wrote: »

oh please , any amount of people have no fear of the law as it takes such a lenient approach

why has crime gone up as faith has fallen amongst the population ?

the state cant perfect people , neither can faith but it has been useful for keeping behaviour in check down the centuries , that is an upside

There is no fear of any Gods by many many people at senior levels of all belief systems anymore than there is fear of law of government.
For the great majority of people though fear of failing foul of the law is enough to keep them on the right side of the law.

I don't think you can produce any study that would show even a correlation between decreasing religious belief and increasing criminality. In fact if one was to take a snapshot of society in Ireland 100 years ago and today you would find that we have a more lawful and less religious one.

Mad_maxx wrote: »

cheating is seen as ok by the new moral guardians if the right people are engaged in it ( the left tell them its the fault of society and down to inequality etc ) , in the past there was a lot less murder too

Ah so the big bad and undefinable Left has replaced the devil as your invisible evil I take it.

Mad_maxx

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

spare me this "lefty" bollix. try to debate intelligently.

oh the irony

timmyntc

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

religion didn't shape those behaviours. it reflected what people were already doing. in societies that western religion have never touched they have the same prohibitions broadly. It is inherently human. that you need someone to tell you not to do these things is a reflection of you.

Those behaviours didn't just appear with the advent of religion, of course not.
But religion evolved as a tool to enforce those behaviours - and it's not exclusive to western religion.

There is no such thing as "inherently human" though - human behaviour was not always rooted in cooperation. Civilization & the concept of doing no harm to others is a very recent construct in the grand scheme of things. Early man would not have survived if he didnt kill others.

that you need someone to tell you not to do these things is a reflection of you.

:pac:

seamus

It's so funny how this whole anti-PC thing has become a new cult in itself. It comes complete with its own boogeymen that don't exist, like "Woke brigade" and "cancel culture", and a verboten ideology that you can instantly pin to someone to discredit them as evil - "Leftist".

And of course, it prides itself on victimisation; believing that they are all subject to mass oppression and discrimination, despite being a part of the freest, most powerful group of people on the planet.

Where the Catholic church and Christianity filled this need in the past, the space has now been filled. All you have to do to signal that you are part of this righteous army is to say something remotely critical about "Woke", accuse "the left" of things that aren't happening, and you'll find plenty of kindred spirits.

ohnonotgmail

timmyntc wrote: »

Those behaviours didn't just appear with the advent of religion, of course not.
But religion evolved as a tool to enforce those behaviours - and it's not exclusive to western religion.

There is no such thing as "inherently human" though - human behaviour was not always rooted in cooperation. Civilization & the concept of doing no harm to others is a very recent construct in the grand scheme of things. Early man would not have survived if he didnt kill others.


:pac:

early man survived precisely because they cooperated with each other.

B.A._Baracus

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

benefits to who, exactly? benefits to whoever the church decides should benefit. Everybody else can go **** themselves.

I get what madmax is saying...
There can be benefits to having religion. I know people don't wanna hear that on here but there is

Take some firefighter who's religious. He saves people because he feels God will protect him or should the worse happen he'll go off to a better place. That helps him do his job and save people. That's a good from religion.

Most things in life aren't so black and white.

ancapailldorcha

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

I get what madmax is saying...
There can be benefits to having religion. I know people don't wanna hear that on here but there is

Take some firefighter who's religious. He saves people because he feels God will protect him or should the worse happen he'll go off to a better place. That helps him do his job and save people. That's a good from religion.

Most things in life aren't so black and white.

So all firefighters are Christians? There are no firefighters who don't believe in God?

B.A._Baracus

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So all firefighters are Christians? There are no firefighters who don't believe in God?

You have a raging hard on for religion. I think the international space station can see this
I have read your posts in this thread, obviously including the nit picking one you quoted me on, which you chose not to reply to as I pointed out your incorrect use of "justified" - thank you very much.

We get it. You absolutely hate religion. So please could you add something constructive to this rather than your anti-religion bile... Because the grown ups are talking.