Church influence down, morals changed?

2lazytogetup

im not religious, but think the aul JC was cool. he said be nice to each other, forgive etc. probably good teachings.

just wondering if people have notice morality been lost somewhat over the last 20 years since the catholic church influence has wained.

for example, the religious school i went to had priests that hammered home STIs and no sex before marriage. and between the indoctrination and women generally having to interest in my attempts, that area of my life wasnt going anywhere till i was much older. so are the new generation meeting up, having loads of action and babies galore?

Del2005

Considering the scandals that have come out about the Catholic church in the last 20 years they never had any morals. What happened then was that everything was hidden, mother and baby homes for sex before marriage, and the church encouraged it.

Vic_08

2lazytogetup wrote: »

the religious school i went to had priests that hammered home STIs

An all too common occurrence.

zanador

Yes, they definitely have, since the fall of the church we have started caring for our LGBTQ communities, have supported women in their choices, have allowed unhappy couple to divorce, and also are hopefully on the road to stop judging women for having sex. That's a bit far off though I'd say from some posters..

Anyhoo, our morals have changed to more care for each other and less judgement on actions so my answer is yes.

topper75

There is definitely correlation.

But then there is correlation between a lot of things. Causation admittedly - whatever it is - MUST be rooted in some kind of correlation, logically.

Thelonious Monk

I think people are pretty much the same now as they were 50 years ago except thankfully aren't shamed for doing perfectly natural things, as much.

Gregor Samsa

OP, do you think having sex is immoral?

LuasSimon

Attending church, been told not to kill your neighbour etc gave people a basic grounding of rights and wrongs of life.
These days many people have zero boundaries and are only interested in themselves and have little/no regard for their neighbours or community

ELM327

paedophilia is down

Your Face

I think the waning of the influence of organised religion is leading to the type of society that JC would have wanted.

Ash.J.Williams

Del2005 wrote: »

Considering the scandals that have come out about the Catholic church in the last 20 years they never had any morals. What happened then was that everything was hidden, mother and baby homes for sex before marriage, and the church encouraged it.

don't forget the blessing for the Brits and the Normans to invade ireland came from the pope and our own church convinced us we deserved it for being sinners

zanador

LuasSimon wrote: »

Attending church, been told not to kill your neighbour etc gave people a basic grounding of rights and wrongs of life.
These days many people have zero boundaries and are only interested in themselves and have little/no regard for their neighbours or community

I love when people say this because basically what they're are saying is people can't be good without a higher authority to tell them to be and basically sums up how the Catholic church managed to keep such a stranglehold here. It must be very difficult to live with the concept of original sin and must mean the filter the world is seen through is one of bad people doing bad things rather than just humans trying to survive.

Fear of punishment doesn't make people good, it either makes them sly, a complete acrobat when it comes to cognitive dissonance, or scared and hateful of others.

On the other hand love and forgiveness and accountability can make so.many people blossom. We get what we believe so if we believe we are loved we are much more likely to love and if we believe we are sinners then we will see everyone else as sinners.

Also, I've never attended church, was brought up atheist, and this far have managed not to kill anyone, and have strong boundaries and believe in being kind. And I don't think I'm an aberration, I think I'm the norm

biko

The only religion that is still relevant is Tibetan Buddhism

seamus

LuasSimon wrote: »

Attending church, been told not to kill your neighbour etc gave people a basic grounding of rights and wrongs of life.
These days many people have zero boundaries and are only interested in themselves and have little/no regard for their neighbours or community

That's true. Sure just this last Sunday morning gone I found myself butchering my neighbour so I could take his car.
If I'd gone to mass instead it would never have happened.

zanador

seamus wrote: »

That's true. Sure just this last Sunday morning gone I found myself butchering my neighbour so I could take his car.
If I'd gone to mass instead it would never have happened.

No, no, it's the wrong way round. God FORGIVES he doesn't PREVENT so you be grand

Also your neighbours wife required a test of faith and commitment so you're actually doing god's will, he wants to make sure she's a believer

dxhound2005

It was all about money and the passing on of assets to the next generations. The churches were part of the established order, with their clergy being part of a very few who went to university. Many of the lower orders could not read or write, but were protective of the very little they owned in the form of land. So arranged marriages with dowries were the order of the day, and pregnancy and birth outside of marriage could be a financial disaster.

Different now with the wealth which has spread much wider, and the welfare state. Childrens Allowance did not exist until 1944.

growleaves

2lazytogetup wrote: »

im not religious, but think the aul JC was cool. he said be nice to each other, forgive etc. probably good teachings.

just wondering if people have notice morality been lost somewhat over the last 20 years since the catholic church influence has wained.

for example, the religious school i went to had priests that hammered home STIs and no sex before marriage. and between the indoctrination and women generally having to interest in my attempts, that area of my life wasnt going anywhere till i was much older. so are the new generation meeting up, having loads of action and babies galore?

Er no he didn't.

Goodness as niceness is a bit of fake. There are nice-evil people who do the wrong thing.

topper75

Been a while now since a wicked person got smote.
Nothing like a good smiting. Doesn't have to be a spectacular fist from the clouds. A simple conversion to a salt pillar would suffice. He has gotten a bit lax in his ways since the day of the Israelites.

Edgware

biko wrote: »

The only religion that is still relevant is Tibetan Buddhism

What about Marxist Trotsykist Democratic Centralism?

completedit

Very interesting topic, people will use some scandals and say that the church has no morals blah blah but we need structure, we need something. We've basically replaced religion with liberalism and consumerism which are all well and good but have potential problems as well.

God is dead but what do we replace him with?

Thelonious Monk

completedit wrote: »

Very interesting topic, people will use some scandals and say that the church has no morals blah blah but we need structure, we need something. We've basically replaced religion with liberalism and consumerism which are all well and good but have potential problems as well.

God is dead but what do we replace him with?

I know lots of good people, I don't know any religious people. They are not linked.

Ash.J.Williams

completedit wrote: »

Very interesting topic, people will use some scandals and say that the church has no morals blah blah but we need structure, we need something. We've basically replaced religion with liberalism and consumerism which are all well and good but have potential problems as well.

God is dead but what do we replace him with?

That’s very interesting, I could go on all night but religious sports people are very single minded and use prayer and devotion to focus on the prize, non religious champions do the exact same only god is removed and replaced with something similar ( sports psychology)people with addictions get good results from religious orders specialising in addiction, non religious councillors get the same results by using a “higher power” (in business the higher power can be money)

Prayer and meditation are the same thing and do the same thing to your mind but religious would say the results are from god but there is science there really

Del2005

completedit wrote: »

Very interesting topic, people will use some scandals and say that the church has no morals blah blah but we need structure, we need something. We've basically replaced religion with liberalism and consumerism which are all well and good but have potential problems as well.

God is dead but what do we replace him with?

Why do we need to replace a made up figure?

Church on Tuesday

LuasSimon wrote: »

Attending church, been told not to kill your neighbour etc gave people a basic grounding of rights and wrongs of life.
These days many people have zero boundaries and are only interested in themselves and have little/no regard for their neighbours or community

You don't need to attend a church to know the difference between right and wrong.

That starts in the home and initial schooling for the child, bad parenting is to blame for a lot of society's ills along with other determining factors.

Ash.J.Williams

Del2005 wrote: »

Why do we need to replace a made up figure?

heres a random Google result on the subject

https://www.detoxcentercolorado.com/6-ways-to-connect-to-your-higher-power/

Strumms

There was a time the church here, had influence a plenty as far as society, politics, education.... everything... quite scary looking back.

Now the lot of them, hierarchy in particular have as much influence and sway as your local Centra manager...

Politicians too now know that they can’t be seen to back them and support them. They understand the quite clear public feeling on the back of what’s happened over the last 30 years as regards the church and if they don’t feel they should morally distance... they certainly know politically they have to.

I ceased using the RC church as my moral compass at 15, when I retired from religion. I acknowledge its existence, otherwise it holds very little influence in my life. The conscience is clear, long time since my last guilt trip. Each to their own.

McGinniesta

A guilt free and totally immoral ****

Ash.J.Williams

Strumms wrote: »

There was a time the church here, had influence a plenty as far as society, politics, education.... everything... quite scary looking back.

Now the lot of them, hierarchy in particular have as much influence and sway as your local Centra manager...

Politicians too now know that they can’t be seen to back them and support them. They understand the quite clear public feeling on the back of what’s happened over the last 30 years as regards the church and if they don’t feel they should morally distance... they certainly know politically they have to.

Apart from the Protestants the church sided with every one of our occupiers going right back to the Vikings, and had encouraged anti Jewish sentiments.


A mate actually rang me years ago after he saw an old RTÉ clip of a kid talking about football and she used a phrase I recall well from the 80s in which describe a player hogging the ball or as she said “jewin it”

seamus

completedit wrote: »

we need structure, we need something

Maybe you do. Don't think you can speak for everyone.

Fighting Tao

completedit wrote: »

Very interesting topic, people will use some scandals and say that the church has no morals blah blah but we need structure, we need something. We've basically replaced religion with liberalism and consumerism which are all well and good but have potential problems as well.

God is dead but what do we replace him with?

Who do you mean when you say 'we'?

zanador

completedit wrote: »

Very interesting topic, people will use some scandals and say that the church has no morals blah blah but we need structure, we need something. We've basically replaced religion with liberalism and consumerism which are all well and good but have potential problems as well.

God is dead but what do we replace him with?

It's very interesting. I read something once, can't remember where, that Michael Jackson (as an example at the time) could be a god in 2,000 for the fame he has and the way people will talk about him. That's changed obviously but it makes one wonder.

And we do replace the idea of 'god' with something - that so far has been the human cycle over history. Maybe humanism will become a god figure in a few thousand years?

Strumms

completedit wrote: »

Very interesting topic, people will use some scandals and say that the church has no morals blah blah but we need structure, we need something. We've basically replaced religion with liberalism and consumerism which are all well and good but have potential problems as well.

God is dead but what do we replace him with?

The only structure society needs is a structure of decency, honesty, openness and compassion. The church’s track record in adherence and advocacy in that direction is lacking.. they can’t be trusted.

Also what you are referring to as ‘scandals’, were in fact very serious crimes, both perpetrated and covered up over decades.

The church provides little of anything worthwhile...The church pretty much now has no more influence or appeal than your local rugby club, less probably...

If you get up in the morning, and say “I need structure”... I’d suggest going to a building site ahead of a church.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

The only structure society needs is a structure of decency, honesty, openness and compassion. The church’s track record in adherence and advocacy in that direction is lacking.. they can’t be trusted.

Also what you are referring to as ‘scandals’, were in fact very serious crimes, both perpetrated and covered up over decades.

The church provides little of anything worthwhile...The church pretty much now has no more influence or appeal than your local rugby club, less probably...

If you get up in the morning, and say “I need structure”... I’d suggest going to a building site ahead of a church.

All we have done really is replaced the church with the church of Woke. Complete with guilt, shame and hypocrisy.

And all societies need structure. Some kind of moral basis shared by all. The church for all its faults did in fact do some good. The church of woke is merely performative.

( I say all this as an atheist).

Mad_maxx

Del2005 wrote: »

Considering the scandals that have come out about the Catholic church in the last 20 years they never had any morals. What happened then was that everything was hidden, mother and baby homes for sex before marriage, and the church encouraged it.

a small minority of fiends in the catholic church should not mean we completely dismiss the stability in society that a strong church provided

im a non believer too by the way

Mad_maxx

zanador wrote: »

Yes, they definitely have, since the fall of the church we have started caring for our LGBTQ communities, have supported women in their choices, have allowed unhappy couple to divorce, and also are hopefully on the road to stop judging women for having sex. That's a bit far off though I'd say from some posters..

Anyhoo, our morals have changed to more care for each other and less judgement on actions so my answer is yes.

just as much judgementalism about today , only difference is the moral guardians of today are the WOKE media and the rest of the PC clergy

katiek102010

Deleted User wrote: »

All we have done really is replaced the church with the church of Woke. Complete with guilt, shame and hypocrisy.

And all societies need structure. Some kind of moral basis shared by all. The church for all its faults did in fact do some good. The church of woke is merely performative.

( I say all this as an atheist).

100% agree.

completedit

Strumms wrote: »

The only structure society needs is a structure of decency, honesty, openness and compassion. The church’s track record in adherence and advocacy in that direction is lacking.. they can’t be trusted.

Also what you are referring to as ‘scandals’, were in fact very serious crimes, both perpetrated and covered up over decades.

The church provides little of anything worthwhile...The church pretty much now has no more influence or appeal than your local rugby club, less probably...

If you get up in the morning, and say “I need structure”... I’d suggest going to a building site ahead of a church.

Ok, but how much of those values come from Christendom? On the individual level, all we need is these values but what drives these values? I'm not even sure what I think, perhaps Christianity has taken us to where we need and we are fine to pursue are own path using the principles laid down over centuries but I wouldn't be positive either. Society needs structure. Society needs organization. The individual can support the systems for so long. One or two generations would be my guess. Who knows what happens after?

Neitzche was speaking in the 19th century and so far European society has been okay. But we also had two of the most destructive world wars, facism, Nazism, Stalinism, things have been okay but is this a brief period of stability or the status quo?

Strumms

completedit wrote: »

Ok, but how much of those values come from Christendom? On the individual level, all we need is these values but what drives these values? I'm not even sure what I think, perhaps Christianity has taken us to where we need and we are fine to pursue are own path using the principles laid down over centuries but I wouldn't be positive either. Society needs structure. Society needs organization. The individual can support the systems for so long. One or two generations would be my guess. Who knows what happens after?

Neitzche was speaking in the 19th century and so far European society has been okay. But we also had two of the most destructive world wars, facism, Nazism, Stalinism, things have been okay but is this a brief period of stability or the status quo?

Does it though ?

I’m not sure Christendom can take absolute ownership or responsibility for the good in people and society though.

As relates to NOW, their world influence has trailed off and drained away...because of their actions and inactions as well as crimes.

You can and will learn said values if handed down from your parents, reinforced by and right through your education... my parents and education thought me way more than a church...a million times more, about every aspect of life.

So this education and organization just comes from an alternative source...an appropriate source.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

2lazytogetup wrote: »

im not religious, but think the aul JC was cool. he said be nice to each other, forgive etc. probably good teachings.

Bill and Ted sid the asme thing. So, by extension, if you haven't seen their most excellend movies, dude, you are so uncool.

ancapailldorcha

Shame aul JC didn't take an interest in his priests when they were molesting children and his pope when he was promoting and waging wars.

Antares35

Hardly an institution to look up to now. Protecting and relocating known paedophiles so they could hurt and abuse children elsewhere. Generations of kids terrified to go to school because of the Christian brothers treatment of them. Telling women whose babies died before baptism that they didn't go to heaven. Baptising a tiny innocent baby because it was born with sin. Requiring women to be "cleansed" after childbirth. Denying women reproductive autonomy for years. Telling them it was sinful to refuse their husbands. Swindling life savings out of stupid aul wans who thought it would get them to heaven quicker.

I don't want to join that club. Besides, if you need an institution to tell you right from wrong, it isn't religion you're lacking, it's a moral compass.

In addition, I live a much better and more charitable life as an atheist than some of the prícks I know in my locality who treat people like rubbish and still mindlessly hug the altar every Sunday.

Snake Plisken

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Shame aul JC didn't take an interest in his priests when they were molesting children and his pope when he was promoting and waging wars.

At least the Crusades drove the invading Moors back out of Europe, could do with them back to protect Europe's borders these days!

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Shame aul JC didn't take an interest in his priests when they were molesting children and his pope when he was promoting and waging wars.

Far more wars caused by secularism in the last few years.

Antares35 wrote: »

I don't want to join that club. Besides, if you need an institution to tell you right from wrong, it isn't religion you're lacking, it's a moral compass.

Well that's right, the person who needs to be told to be more moral or to expect some reward in the next life isn't as moral internally as the person who doesnt. But maybe for society we need some of the moral bribery.

I once watched a Netflix documentary on life inmates in American prisons. No chance, or little, or parole. Most were extremely bitter, but the guys who turned to Christianity in prison were happy enough, and were helping other inmates. So it does work.

AutoTuning

I actually think we’re far more moral. If you look at politics or debates on any topic in Ireland in recent years, they’re more empathetic and reasonable and have a lot more of a social conscience than that would have had in the 1980s and dramatically more so than the 1950s or earlier.

We’re less pious, buttoned up and conservative, but those things don’t equate to morality.

Horrendous stuff happened here during our most pious and religious years and there was more focus on an outward appearance of morality than actually having morals and values of decency. That’s how we ended up protecting institutions instead of people’s rights and dignity.

I’m not even convinced that we were religious. We were pious and obsessed with social respectability and our society’s mores were often absolutist, inflexible, judgmental and lacked any sense of compassion.

Antares35

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Far more wars caused by secularism in the last few years.



Well that's right, the person who needs to be told to be more moral or to expect some reward in the next life isn't as moral internally as the person who doesnt. But maybe for society we need some of the moral bribery.

I once watched a Netflix documentary on life inmates in American prisons. No chance, or little, or parole. Most were extremely bitter, but the guys who turned to Christianity in prison were happy enough, and were helping other inmates. So it does work.

On inmates with little else in their lives. Hardly a litmus test for society as a whole. I very much doubt that any significant level of compliance, adherence to the law and general inclination to treat others well can be attributed to people looking for the best seat in the house when they pass on.

There is a new religion to fill the God-shaped hole. It is called political correctness. We all have to say and do the prescribed things. Travellers are an ethic group. Refugees welcome here. Believe women. Love is love.

Woe betide anyone who disagrees with the new doctrine. They need to be dragged around and publicly shamed into grovelling apologies, or risk having their careers ended.

It's the same cult of group compliance and shaming, just with different labels.

suicide_circus

Basically our morals are still essentially Christian. "Do unto others..." Matthew 7:12

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a new religion to fill the God-shaped hole. It is called political correctness. We all have to say and do the prescribed things. Travellers are an ethic group. Refugees welcome here. Believe women. Love is love.

Woe betide anyone who disagrees with the new doctrine. They need to be dragged around and publicly shamed into grovelling apologies, or risk having their careers ended.

It's the same cult of group compliance and shaming, just with different labels.

That's not true. Some of us are very capable of debating with them and using informed logic and thought to hightlight the flaws in their logic and dangers in their ideas (where the exist - we don't have to exagerate them). Others aren't and have to moan about not being able to say what they want.

As I've said countless times before, "can't" as in not able to, not "can't" is in not allowed to.

Jim2007

Although the OP probably did not phrase it very well and some people have taken it as an opportunity to go off on a tangent about their favorite religious hobby horse, the OP has a valid point.

In Europe we have relayed very much on the Christian religion as the basis for teaching civics and we still do today. While most European citizens no longer practice their religion, most still have one and want their kids to hit all the religions high points of their religion, so young citizens still go through the same process today.

One of the reasons a country or the EU works is because we all have the same basic value system. For instance it goes without saying that we will not admit a new EU member state that supports the death penalty. There is no debate on it, it’s just how we feel about the topic.

I don’t believe for a minute that all the people who voted for Trump or BREXIT are stupid, but I do believe that their sense of civic duty has been blunted to such an extent that lies, cheating and doing what ever is necessary in areas of public policy are acceptable. And having a large percentage of the community practicing that “religion” has serious consequences.

So in a post religious society, how do we go about (a) defining our civic duties and (b) teach them to such an extent that they will be followed to the same degree?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

suicide_circus wrote: »

Basically our morals are still essentially Christian. "Do unto others..." Matthew 7:12

Yeah, my BDSM troupe has the same motto.