The Leinster Championship is dead.

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Well it was you who started with the 1950's in fairness Anyway my point is that it is not a 2 horse race, Roscommon are very competitive in Connacht, they would never ever be taken for granted by the Big Two in the way Sligo and Leitrim usually are, and London too

You really need 2 fairly equal top div1 teams + a decent side mid div1\top div 2 in a province. Duopolies or one top team is boring for neutrals.

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

I'm not aware of the intricacies of Meath but I know that the last period of time Kildare were half way competitive nationally was 2008 to 2012 and it literally broke the county. But sure money has nothing to do with it :rolleyes:

Also, have a look at this before talking about population and how counties should raise more money themselves: https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp2tc/cp2pdm/pob/

It's no surprise that Meath, Kildare and Wicklow have the highest percentage of residents that were not born in the county. I'm sure all these people wandering about Naas, Navan and Bray in Dublin jerseys and shorts in December are more than willing to help out the local county board.

Noone in Bray gives a bollocks about Gah

beggars_bush wrote: »

Fairly good for Roscommon considering they've half the population of mayo and one quarter that of Galway
Plus one of the biggest towns in the county is in mayo for gaa

They'll pay their rates to Roscommon, but their respects to Mayo.

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

No, you are wrong on that one. You would be correct for any county outside of Dublin, where GPOs are assigned to geographical areas. In Dublin however, they were aligned to each club from 2005, no doubt they did indeed visit some schools but they were also responsible for developing club players, meaning way more professional coaching for the boys in blue compared to any other county

While you are correct in that the GPO's were assigned to a club that nevertheless does not change their roles. They were tasked in developing Gaelic Games at both codes at primary school going ages. That meant developing relationships with the local schools and giving approx 1hr per month of coaching to the respective classes in each school.

I will share with you a personal journey from Academy through to Minor. You can either accept of dismiss it. Its your choice.

At academy start (5yr olds) the GPO was tasked with on a Saturday morning in our case of identifying parents to mentor these kids through the coming years. I was one of the ones asked to assist. For the 1st two years we would set up our session on a Saturday morning for a 1.5hr session, this was split between Footbal and Hurling. The first month or so we had the assistance of the GPO in heling us understand the structure of the sessions, fun games and inclusion was the message. The GPO would move between the Boys and the Girls groups ensuring the new coaches were OK and if the required guidance he gave.

This would change after year one as the next group would arrive and requite his direction. The one thing that was asked of all parents looking to get involved was that they completed the GAA Foundation coaching program. This was organised by the GPO.

After year two we were allocated an evening training slot and worked on our own, having a year kick off and year end meeting with the GPO to see how we were progressing. The GPO's are spread between all ages from 5-12 and all codes.

After u12 we pretty much had not contact with the GPO bar informal chats on how we were progressing.

So to say that players in Dublin are getting professional coaching from a team of professional coaches is factually incorrect. The GPO's do not try and identify potential IC players. Their mantra is to develop every child to their maximunm ability. This is all done through inclusion, participation encouragement and all with a view to retaining these children into adult games. The high drop off is one of the GAA's biggest concerns and it is in our interest as a society to ensure we keep children engaged as this will benefit them not only health wise going forward but it also helps develop their social skills.

I do wonder how many posters are actually mebers of their local club and how many have actually coached underage games.

IC is a very small part of a great organisation and I know it is a minority who focus on it. Club before County.

ArielAtom wrote: »

While you are correct in that the GPO's were assigned to a club that nevertheless does not change their roles. They were tasked in developing Gaelic Games at both codes at primary school going ages. That meant developing relationships with the local schools and giving approx 1hr per month of coaching to the respective classes in each school.

I will share with you a personal journey from Academy through to Minor. You can either accept of dismiss it. Its your choice.

At academy start (5yr olds) the GPO was tasked with on a Saturday morning in our case of identifying parents to mentor these kids through the coming years. I was one of the ones asked to assist. For the 1st two years we would set up our session on a Saturday morning for a 1.5hr session, this was split between Footbal and Hurling. The first month or so we had the assistance of the GPO in heling us understand the structure of the sessions, fun games and inclusion was the message. The GPO would move between the Boys and the Girls groups ensuring the new coaches were OK and if the required guidance he gave.

This would change after year one as the next group would arrive and requite his direction. The one thing that was asked of all parents looking to get involved was that they completed the GAA Foundation coaching program. This was organised by the GPO.

After year two we were allocated an evening training slot and worked on our own, having a year kick off and year end meeting with the GPO to see how we were progressing. The GPO's are spread between all ages from 5-12 and all codes.

After u12 we pretty much had not contact with the GPO bar informal chats on how we were progressing.

So to say that players in Dublin are getting professional coaching from a team of professional coaches is factually incorrect. The GPO's do not try and identify potential IC players. Their mantra is to develop every child to their maximunm ability. This is all done through inclusion, participation encouragement and all with a view to retaining these children into adult games. The high drop off is one of the GAA's biggest concerns and it is in our interest as a society to ensure we keep children engaged as this will benefit them not only health wise going forward but it also helps develop their social skills.

I do wonder how many posters are actually mebers of their local club and how many have actually coached underage games.

IC is a very small part of a great organisation and I know it is a minority who focus on it. Club before County.

This is 100% a fair reflection, and the reason I made the point earlier that what the GPO has really done in Dublin has helped the clubs leverage the vast volunteer mentor resource.

And also the reason that I mentioned that a disadvantage in Meath and Kildare is that people have long commutes (relatively) and therefore have less time in the day to make available for volunteer mentoring.

And a third important point is that 99.9% of active playing gaa club members never go anywhere near an Intercounty set up. And from that POV, players in Meath, Kildare and elsewhere are at no disadvantage at all.

Meath might be getting hammered by Dublin. But if you look at the club facilities in Vincents or Ballymun Kickhams or Ballyboden, and compare them to the club facilities at Donaghmore Ashbourne, Ratoath or Newbridge Sarsfields or Eire Og in Carlow....the Dublin clubs are very stretched in terms of capacity. For me, the best resourced Dublin clubs are the ones in towns similar to Ashbourne - so that would be Rush (Maurs), Portmarnock or Balbriggan. They are able to build facilities.

That really is the bigger picture that doesnt get discussed very often, when the "all the money goes to the Dubs" conversation comes up.

To give one illustration of how this manifests itself; it was very difficult for kids in Dublin to a Cul Camps place this year (and most years), whereas if you are in Offaly or Laois its much easier.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Thats the only point I'll challenge you on as I agree with the rest of what you wrote.

For me, if Dublin dont win the league and they win the All Ireland, they are 99% happy with how their year has gone. If Dublin win the league and dont win the all Ireland, they are 1% happy with how their year is gone.

For other teams, the League has much greater priority. Monaghan would be the best example. I think at this stage the league is a higher priority for Monaghan than championship - and why not, they get a series of games against the top teams year in year out. And on this basis, the league could become a lot more competitive.

But at the very top level - their is just a lot more bite in the final stages of the AI than in the league.

From an IC persppective I would love to see The Sam Maguire move to league and make it the premier competition. Treat the Championship like the FA Cup. But that will never happen.

Another exercise which is useful to indicate how far Meath and Kildare have fallen relative to the top 6 six teams in the country (excluding Dublin) is to ask how many Kildare or Meath players would (honestly) get into the starting 15 of the following teams:

Kerry
Tyrone
Donegal
Mayo
Galway
Monaghan

Because in my view it is a tough exercise. I am really struggling with it.
The fact I have to properly think about it says a lot.

Meath = Menton and Newman (would they get into any or many of those starting 15's)

They do not even make the best Meath 15's in the last 30 years poll:

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/revealed-the-best-meath-team-of-the-last-30-years-as-voted-by-you-436196

Kildare best starting 15 in the last 30 years as voted in a poll:

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/kildare-15-for-30-revealed-444218

Daniel Flynn now in Australia? Peter Kelly? Honestly, I wouldn't know him if he walked in my front door.

How many household names do Meath and Kildare have these days?

Kevin Feely is useful more known for playing soccer than GAA?

How many people in any GAA household in the country (outside Kildare or Meath) could now rattle off names and say that Meath/Kildare player 'some player'!?

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Useless whatabouttery.

Whether you know or recall all all star winners in the last 30 years is not a reasonable metric of how good a player was/is.

It is not, does it not tell you something that Meath and Kildare lack quality players?

Where people say xyz fella would walk into most county teams at their peak.

Declan Browne Tipp for instance, Kevin O'Brien wicklow, Dessie Dolan Westmeath, Donie Kingston Laois, Stephen Meiia and Paddy Keenan Louth, Thomas Walsh Carlow, Paul Barden Longford. GAA people would know or remember those lads.

Or fellas even vaguely heard of outside the province as a 'top player' named by pundits?

Who have Kildare and Meath got at the moment?
Fellas who people would say 'jayus some player'...and everyone knows him around the country.

Feck all, if any I would argue.

Or even people who would make those outside the county check the match programme 'What is yer man's name....?' I remember I did that when I saw David Clifford play minor for the first time. Also Quinliven for Tipp at minor.

Meath did not win a game in div 1 and were out of it for 13 years. Kildare are not in div 1 and get beaten out the gate in the Super 8's.

If I was from Meath/Kildare I would be embarrassed. Isn't it any wonder I would want to put the focus on Dublin as the fault? And even see removing Dublin from Leinster as the solution?

I challenge Meath and Kildare people to come up names and why they would get into those top 6 starting teams, excluding Dublin.

Kerry
Tyrone
Donegal
Mayo
Galway
Monaghan

Could you get 5 from Kildare? Or 5 from Meath?

I bet it most will be greeted with 'who?' from non-Kildare/Meath posters.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Thats the only point I'll challenge you on as I agree with the rest of what you wrote.

For me, if Dublin dont win the league and they win the All Ireland, they are 99% happy with how their year has gone. If Dublin win the league and dont win the all Ireland, they are 1% happy with how their year is gone.

For other teams, the League has much greater priority. Monaghan would be the best example. I think at this stage the league is a higher priority for Monaghan than championship - and why not, they get a series of games against the top teams year in year out. And on this basis, the league could become a lot more competitive.

But at the very top level - their is just a lot more bite in the final stages of the AI than in the league.

OK I understand what you are saying. Priority and so on. But I would argue at the sharp end the league is a massive indicator of where a team are at. Especially when taken over 2/3 year cycles. Teams might experiment for one year and then show improvement.

From 1997 onwards I would argue this has proven to be the case. As you hear less of 'ah sure it is only the league'. Teams have treated it more seriously over the last 20 years or so. Granted there is some experimentation but it leads to improvement in league standing when looked at over a 2/3 year period

Meath were not in division 1 for 13 years.

When they got promoted it was called massive for 'Meath football' by Meath sleeveless legend Trevor Giles.

https://www.the42.ie/trevor-giles-meath-4598442-Apr2019/

Yet Meath failed to win a game and went straight back down. Because they were just not up to same level. Getting there maybe. Showing improvement maybe. But not there yet.

I remember in the 2010 league being devastated when Dublin did not make the league final - just missed out - head to head hard luck. The Dubs had not being in final since 99 and had not won a league since 93.

Why was I devastated? Because it was a chance for the Dubs to show improvement and win a national title. Plus then Dublin went a step further the next year in 2011 and made the league final. But lost to Cork.

Again I was devastated. I think B Brogan was taken off and the game turned?

But we all know what happened in the 2011 AI final and in the years following for Dublin. By virtue of the fact Dublin just missed out on the 2010 league final and made the 2011 League final losing narrowly had shown signs of an improving team in itself.

I believe the groundwork for Dublin was laid in the league with Pat Gilroy experimenting and doing enough to stay in division 1. Which Dubs were happy with because they could see what he was trying to do - blooding new players. But played conservative football building a solid base. No swash buckling stuff.

This is what I mean by the League improving teams and it can generally be seen in 2/3 year cycles. It shows in league and championship time and again in the last 20 years or so.

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Your lack of knowledge of Meath is laid bare yet again given that you conveniently left out Donal Keogan.
I'm really beginning to doubt that you're engaging in this in good faith. Again, I'm not denying that we're not as good a team as our best ever teams. But we have improved on the whole compared to 7 or 8 years ago, yet the gap between ourselves and Dublin has increased.

When the OP's biases and ulterior motive has been laid bare I doubt the poster was in good faith. The poster really wanted to discussed Dublin's 'unfair' advantages. Rather than discussing the meat of all the issues in their own OP why Leinster is dead.

Yes, Dublin had advantages and always will they organised and improved.
But it is beyond question that Meath and Kildare have gone backwards. League and games outside Leinster have proved this.
Plus the structure of the provincials is unfair/antiquated and needs to be scrapped.

But it appears that the OP does not want to analysis this part of the issue, as it appears the truth hurts. Meath and Kildare are not that good, nor have they been for a long time. League and Super 8's prove this beyond doubt.

When Meath and Kildare were even handy teams, I used to rattle off their players.
Now to be honest when watching Dublin play them I just look to see is there any player with a bit about them at all. A decent div 1 player in other words.

Would struggle to find 2/3 max.

I am just being honest I have mentioned Dublin's past failings. It appears that the OP is unwilling to mention the failings of two main Leinster counties (barring Dublin).

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Would Keogan get into many of those top 6 teams I mentioned I am not so sure?
He would not make Monaghan, Kerry, Tyrone in my opinion anyway. Plus he might not make Mayo. Galway likely poor backs.

He would walk into the Kerry team tbf.

If you gave the Kildare and Meath panels the same treatment, training etc. as the Dublin panel they'd be in the top five counties without question.