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The Leinster Championship is dead.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    The reason the hurlers have gone backwards is due to the best dual minor and U20 players focussing on football.

    Thats where the glory, exposure and financial opportunities are. Look at the long, long list of sponsors Dublin have.

    Anybody denying a link between hugely improved development squads and minor/U20 teams and the funding put into GDOs in schools and clubs (that is key - you've a full time coach to drive up standards in a club from U7 up to adult level), is like a flat earther. the GDO also acts as the link between schools and clubs.
    They run coaching demos for club coaches to upskill and take teams to freshen up coaching ideas
    They also link up between clubs and county development panels.

    There's huge synergy between these funded coaches, clubs and county.
    Ger O'Connor runs a very slick operation

    The GAA has created this mess by not ensuring a comparative plan was put in place for other counties in Leinster


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    The Dublin u21's footballers did not compete at that level for gaps of over decades. So that is completely different complexion on your statement straight away.

    The Dublin hurling revival started 20 years ago. A final appearance in 00 and 04. Winning in 05 (which I witnessed in CP).
    Dublin hurling was also help by country players and managers.
    However, since 2013 Dublin have gone backwards in hurling since those players and managers left. Despite all thier supposed advantages.

    I feel those with football expertise should be encouraged to get involved in other counties in Leinster. Players and management. As country lads have done with the Dublin hurlers/players and management.
    Dublin football is where the know is and other counties in Dublin's geographical proximity should tap into it more.

    Parentage rule and so on.

    The current Dublin football team has been backboned by an exceptional Ballymun team since 2011. Also an exceptional keeper in Cluxton from Parnell's. Integral to Dublin's tactics.

    Dublin didn't compete at u21 level for 3 years from 1986! :pac: Where are you getting decades from? You mean the hurling revival also occurred when the money began?
    In a crazy coincidence, the revival of the Dublin senior footballers and hurlers, the u20/21 footballers and hurlers, the minor football and hurlers, the women's footballers, Dublin's clubs footballers and hurlers all happened at the exact same time that Dublin were given over 1 million per year in games development funding. There's no way it could be linked, could it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭Uncle Pierre


    Enquiring wrote: »
    Dublin didn't compete at u21 level for 3 years from 1986! :pac: Where are you getting decades from?

    Ah, in a way, he's right that they didn't compete at U-21 for decades.

    The U-21 championships only started in 1964. So Dublin didn't compete in them in the 1950s....the 1940s....the 1930s....the 1920s....and so on. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,380 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    The reason the hurlers have gone backwards is due to the best dual minor and U20 players focussing on football.

    Not completely true it is because the hurlers and footballers are competing for the same generation of talent. However, going by your logic a rising tide should lift all boats. This is not shown at intercounty hurling level.

    Regardless hurling should still have shown consistent improvement. However, it has not. Once Daly and the country lads, plus good generation of Dublin hurlers faded there was no replacement.

    Many have returned to hurling from football such as Dotsy, Shane Ryan and Keaney. However they have now faded or retired. Despite supposed advantages Dublin inter county hurling has not progressed. But gone backways.

    That is one anomaly you gloss over by saying it is because good hurlers went to football. Ok you can use that argument and say it is a 'cultural' one. Fair enough.

    But, this line of argument does not explain how Dublin club football has failed at club level over thier 'glory inter county' years. Losing to Corofin, Rathnew, Mullinalaghta and St Brigid's Roscommon.

    Which is part of the reason I believe club football is the future.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,380 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Enquiring wrote: »
    Dublin didn't compete at u21 level for 3 years from 1986! :pac: Where are you getting decades from? You mean the hurling revival also occurred when the money began?
    In a crazy coincidence, the revival of the Dublin senior footballers and hurlers, the u20/21 footballers and hurlers, the minor football and hurlers, the women's footballers, Dublin's clubs footballers and hurlers all happened at the exact same time that Dublin were given over 1 million per year in games development funding. There's no way it could be linked, could it?

    Incorrect it was longer than that Dublin GAA went through long spells of not competing in the u21 championship. I suggest you research it properly. It still annoys me lack of foresight by Dublin CLG. As I already stated how do you explain the Dublin intercounty dip 2013 -2020. Plus at the same time explain how Dublin club football has floundered. As both seem incongruent to many an argument.

    Also Dublin's hurling revival can be traced to 20 years ago at minor, unfortunately it has faded quicker.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,380 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Ah, in a way, he's right that they didn't compete at U-21 for decades.

    The U-21 championships only started in 1964. So Dublin didn't compete in them in the 1950s....the 1940s....the 1930s....the 1920s....and so on. :)

    Funny :D

    But it is true Dublin did not compete in the u21 for long spells after it was founded. I suggest you contact the Dublin County Board for details. Plus even when there it was not treated seriously.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hammer Archer


    Incorrect it was longer than that Dublin GAA went through long spells of not competing in the u21 championship. I suggest you research it properly. It still annoys me lack of foresight by Dublin CLG. As I already stated how do you explain the Dublin intercounty dip 2013 -2020. Plus at the same time explain how Dublin club football has floundered. As both seem incongruent to many an argument.
    How on earth do you come to the conclusion that Dublin club football has floundered? Dublin clubs won 7 out of 10 Leinster club championships from 2010 - 2019, the most in any decade since the All-Ireland club championships began.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    Incorrect it was longer than that Dublin GAA went through long spells of not competing in the u21 championship. I suggest you research it properly. It still annoys me lack of foresight by Dublin CLG. As I already stated how do you explain the Dublin intercounty dip 2013 -2020. Plus at the same time explain how Dublin club football has floundered. As both seem incongruent to many an argument.

    Also Dublin's hurling revival can be traced to 20 years ago at minor, unfortunately it has faded quicker.

    The combined Dublin schools and then Colaiste Eoin did huge work taking on the Kilkenny and Wexford schools.
    Showed Dublin could be competitive


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,380 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    How on earth do you come to the conclusion that Dublin club football has floundered? Dublin clubs won 7 out of 10 Leinster club championships from 2010 - 2019, the most in any decade since the All-Ireland club championships began.

    Leinster club? I am on about All Ireland club win's! Dublin have not won since 2015. Even then Boden were lucky to get there they beat Clontarf when a down and behind in Dublin club. Plus Portlaoise had them beaten in Leinster.

    Dublin clubs two AI wins since 2009 is underperforming in my view.

    Plus throw in the Mullinaughta, Rathnew wins in Leinster and questions should be asked. Is it the intercounty managers that are the issue?

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,380 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    The combined Dublin schools and then Colaiste Eoin did huge work taking on the Kilkenny and Wexford schools.
    Showed Dublin could be competitive

    Yeah saw Andrew Shaugnessey (Limerick) on Laochra Gael his school played combined Dublin one year.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hammer Archer


    Leinster club? I am on about All Ireland club win's! Dublin have not won since 2015. Even then Boden were lucky to get there they beat Clontarf when a down and behind in Dublin club. Plus Portlaoise had them beaten in Leinster.

    Dublin clubs two AI wins since 2009 is underperforming in my view.

    Plus throw in the Mullinaughta, Rathnew wins in Leinster and questions should be asked. Is it the intercounty managers that are the issue?
    Hardly floundering then. Dublin clubs have performed as well as they ever have in All Irelands while they've dominated Leinster over the last decade.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭ArielAtom


    Quick question. Is this a thread about the Leinster Championship or a code name for Dublin dominance???


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,775 ✭✭✭✭Slattsy


    ArielAtom wrote: »
    Quick question. Is this a thread about the Leinster Championship or a code name for Dublin dominance???

    The latter apparently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    ArielAtom wrote: »
    Actually I do, If you choose to not, that is your prerogative. That and the fact that I have friends in Kildare who have said the exact same.

    Thems be the facts I'm afraid. If you choose to argue them, so be it.

    What facts? In this imaginary world of yours Kildare GAA were offered development funding and turned it down. Once again you are talking through your hoop.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    Slattsy wrote: »
    The latter apparently.

    Well it's a pretty big talking point when one county in the province has been singled out for special treatment over a long period of time


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,619 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Well it's a pretty big talking point when one county in the province has been singled out for special treatment over a long period of time

    Yea but Jackeens in Jerseys is what pays the bills!

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,380 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Hardly floundering then. Dublin clubs have performed as well as they ever have in All Irelands while they've dominated Leinster over the last decade.

    In my view it is floundering given the teams the quality of the Dublin championship. Dublin should be getting far more AI champions. Plus they are inversely effected by intercounty success, particularly Ballymun, due to player burn out.

    Kildare and Meath are like a former nice bit of stuff that has let herself go big style. Rather than focusing on a once in generation beauty like Dublin. Shouldn't Kildare and Meath be more concerned about their failure to keep pace with the plain Jane's who barely get a second look like Westmeath, Carlow, and Longford?

    Now that Dublin have got their act together isn't it time Kildare and Meath got themselves back in decent shape? They have much more resources and money than the likes of Westmeath, Carlow and Longford yet what have they done? Fallen behind at worst or on virtual par at best with those teams. Teams they used to beat comfortably historically.

    In 10 years time when the the East Leinster Project is given time to bed in - if Kildare and Meath have not improved what excuses will they have then?

    To me a lot of it is deflection on the part of Kildare and Meath rather than looking at their own failings they bitch and moan about the greatest team in the history of the GAA. Instead of viewing it as a privilege to play such a great team and see them live.

    I have rarely heard Wesmeath, Wexford, Louth, Carlow, Longford people moaning about the inequities of the Leinster Provincial Structure. Yet they used to get beaten regularly by Kildare and Meath et al.

    Also the Leinster Council made fortunes on the back of Dublin and Dublin supporters keeping many other counties afloat.

    But it is clear to me the provincial system is broken. It always was inequitable and its time has come. But there does not seem to be an appetite to change it among the broader GAA community. Cavan are happy to wait another 20 or so years and Tipp are happy to wait another 85.

    Rather than blame Dublin, Leinster as a province should be thankful for them. Because quite frankly the standard of the rest of the counties has become a bit of joke. That is the truth of it. Yet Dublin has managed to develop Gaelic football on from what Donegal, Tyrone did. They watched and learnt.
    To put it bluntly many counties in Leinster now seem like slow learners.

    Only for Dublin the GAA would be stuck with ultra defensive football and 12 behind the ball. The keeper position would not have been revolutionised, short kick outs etc.

    Dublin cracked defensive football and moved it on. The art of the press Gaelic football would not have been improved on and so on.
    The art of not taking the low percentage shot would not have been introduced to the GAA. see Tyrone AI 2018 and Leinster Final 2020. The art of introducing variation in tempo during a move would not have been introduced.

    Dublin brought Gaelic football from a potential dark ages into a renaissance. Only Tyrone. Kerry, Donegal and Mayo have the quality and ability to copy it and try and learn it.

    It is up to the rest of the football counties in Ireland particularly the best of the rest in Leinster to use that bit between their ears (Kildare and Meath). By firstly start beating teams they should be beating in Leinster. Instead of worrying about the Dubs.

    If they can't do that scrap the provincials and restructure the GAA maybe amalgamate a few counties, instead?

    Or are Kildare and Meath admitting that they are just not able to take all the Gaelic football info that is around them? Big dormitory towns and they can't take advantage?

    If a young Micko was managing Kildare or Meath now he would be using the 'parentage rule', every advantage he could find. and would have his teams motivated to the hilt. Have Kildare and Meath given up? Remedial Gaelic Football is it?

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    @gormdubhgorm - If you can't see the inequality in the current model there is no hope for you at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,380 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    @gormdubhgorm - If you can't see the inequality in the current model there is no hope for you at all.

    If I read the post I said I could the whole provincial set up is inequitable Kerry winning 15 out of 20 Munsters. Fermagh, Antrim. Wicklow, Carlow, Clare, Waterford etc.

    It only seems that it suddenly has been noticed because Kildare and Meath made such a balls of things now they struggle to beat Westmeath, Carlow and Longford convincingly or regularly.

    The structure of the GAA championship is a joke as simple as that. To blame Dublin for it is like blaming a crown jewel surrounded by plastic.

    Let the jewels play together in a revamped system. Not good enough? Amalgamate counties or used the parentage rule properly.

    Otherwise stop whinging. Dublin has saved the GAA by bringing the game on in strategy and skill. Plus not only that their success might kill the antiquated and unfair provincial system.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 454 ✭✭Coybig_


    The pure and utter delusion on display from some Dublin supporters is quite staggering. I'm genuinely taken aback at some of the nonsense that has been spouted to internally justify the situation as it is.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 295 ✭✭gourcuff


    Coybig_ wrote: »
    The pure and utter delusion on display from some Dublin supporters is quite staggering. I'm genuinely taken aback at some of the nonsense that has been spouted to internally justify the situation as it is.


    a quote springs to mind...

    "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it"

    when your success depends and was brought about because of inequality, you're hardly going to vote for equality.

    interesting that bertie seems to agree that the investment was instrumental in dublin's success...

    https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/bertie-ahern-explains-how-he-helped-finance-the-dublin-gaa-revolution-37366135.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,841 ✭✭✭Did you smash it


    There’s quite a lot of delusion on the other side aswell.

    To continue this debate for years on boards when it should have been clear that it doesn’t make any difference what facts you show or what arguments you make the debate will always go over the same arguments with no budging on either side.

    There’s comes a time when you just have to move the debate on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭Morathi


    Long time Leinster rugby fan, extraordinarily filthy casual when it comes to Wexford GAA, so excuse any potential misunderstandings. (Still dining at the table of 1996)

    It just strikes me as funny to look at the comparisons with Dublin's football success and Leinster rugby's success.

    We're absolutely steamrolling competition in the Pro14 league, mainly with second string/academy players. Twenty something games in the competition unbeaten, 5 league points from every game this season. Mostly with relative ease.

    I know some people love it, and desire to see Leinster dominate every week, and perhaps they think it's a cyclical thing. Might be, when knows.

    But I look at it and think the incoming South African teams can't join the league quickly enough. Competition benefits absolutely everyone involved in sports.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    If I read the post I said I could the whole provincial set up is inequitable Kerry winning 15 out of 20 Munsters. Fermagh, Antrim. Wicklow, Carlow, Clare, Waterford etc.

    It only seems that it suddenly has been noticed because Kildare and Meath made such a balls of things now they struggle to beat Westmeath, Carlow and Longford convincingly or regularly.

    The structure of the GAA championship is a joke as simple as that. To blame Dublin for it is like blaming a crown jewel surrounded by plastic.

    Let the jewels play together in a revamped system. Not good enough? Amalgamate counties or used the parentage rule properly.

    Otherwise stop whinging. Dublin has saved the GAA by bringing the game on in strategy and skill. Plus not only that their success might kill the antiquated and unfair provincial system.

    Maybe Kildare and Meath wouldn't have "made a balls of things" if they had the resources afforded Dublin?

    I know you like to play the victim (for example, where have I said even one disparaging remark about Dublin?) but nobody can dispute that Dublin have been receiving special treatment for many years now. That isn't controversial or new information or an attack on the Dublin team. Of course that alone also doesn't win you Leinster's but it puts you at a serious advantage before a ball is kicked.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,168 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    ArielAtom wrote: »
    Excellent, so we now realise it is for the development of Gaelic Games at primary school level., in schools and not at club level and not funding IC. Cheers, glad you cleared that up.

    Another one of the tropes pedaled by Dubliners is that all those development funds organised by Bertie was just for the wee school children.

    As if those kids aren't playing with clubs, that they never grow up into adults playing for clubs and ultimately some of them for county panels.

    Between this and the farcical pronouncement that Corke Park is a not a home venue for Dublin regardless of the fact they play the vast vast majority of their games there and it is in the heart of Dublin city, ye lads are stretching truth and facts to such a level these days that you should be working in US politics. :rolleyes:


    How on earth do you come to the conclusion that Dublin club football has floundered? Dublin clubs won 7 out of 10 Leinster club championships from 2010 - 2019, the most in any decade since the All-Ireland club championships began.

    I gave this stat earlier in debate where Dublin clubs won 11 between start of Leinster clubs championship in 1970 and 2003, but have won 11 between 2003 and 2020.
    And it was 5 different clubs not one or two like in other counties e.g Mayo, Galway, Armagh, Kerry.

    That shows the growing strength of Dublin club football.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    ArielAtom wrote: »
    Quick question. Is this a thread about the Leinster Championship or a code name for Dublin dominance???

    They are related issues.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭ShyMets


    Firstly I agree that changes need to happen in Leinster. In particular a redistribution of funding.

    But what seems to be ignored is that fact that for the 50 years, leaving aside the period of the late 90's/early 00's, most teams in Leinster has haven't exactly been knocking at the door.

    Personally I see no reason to believe this will change


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭Uncle Pierre


    ShyMets wrote: »
    But what seems to be ignored is that fact that for the 50 years, leaving aside the period of the late 90's/early 00's, most teams in Leinster has haven't exactly been knocking at the door.

    Personally I see no reason to believe this will change

    I don't think that's ignored at all. And unfortunately, I agree it will never change. We're never going to be in a position whereby every county in Leinster starts out thinking they have as equal a chance of winning the provincial title as anybody else. The likes of Carlow, Wicklow, and ourselves here in Wexford are always going to be minnows.

    But the difference is that up to 2010, there were always probably three counties as roughly equal main challengers. Dublin and Meath were usually two of the three, and at different times over the years, the third one might have been Offaly, Kildare, or even Wexford (if you go back far enough!).

    There'd also have been two or three others who genuinely felt they had a chance if things fell right for them. Even in the decade just finished, Wexford had a great chance of winning the 2011 Leinster Final against Dublin. A horrible own goal with about 20 minutes to go was all that separated the sides that day. (2-11 to 1-11).

    By the way, was looking on YouTube to see if I could find that goal. I can't, but I did find this from the semi-final in 2011 instead - a hugely controversial free that Dublin got while level in injury time against Kildare:


    I'm not putting it up there from an "even the referees help Dublin" point of view. I'm putting it up simply to show how close Kildare were to Dublin at that time too.

    I can't speak for Kildare, but I do know it's highly unlikely Wexford will ever go so close to winning Leinster again. Just nine years ago, a genuine "golden generation" of players and a good manager was good enough to bring us close. But now, even that wouldn't be enough, because of how Dublin have become so dominant.

    There was talk above of "delusion". Greatest example of it simply has to be the claim that Dublin "are the saviours of the GAA".

    Even leaving aside how the GAA is about more than gaelic football (has anybody ever heard of hurling? ;)), they've hardly been the saviour of it. It's more likely that ongoing dominance, with no end in sight, will be its ruination.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭ShyMets


    I don't think that's ignored at all. And unfortunately, I agree it will never change. We're never going to be in a position whereby every county in Leinster starts out thinking they have as equal a chance of winning the provincial title as anybody else. The likes of Carlow, Wicklow, and ourselves here in Wexford are always going to be minnows.

    But the difference is that up to 2010, there were always probably three counties as roughly equal main challengers. Dublin and Meath were usually two of the three, and at different times over the years, the third one might have been Offaly, Kildare, or even Wexford (if you go back far enough!).

    There'd also have been two or three others who genuinely felt they had a chance if things fell right for them. Even in the decade just finished, Wexford had a great chance of winning the 2011 Leinster Final against Dublin. A horrible own goal with about 20 minutes to go was all that separated the sides that day. (2-11 to 1-11).

    By the way, was looking on YouTube to see if I could find that goal. I can't, but I did find this from the semi-final in 2011 instead - a hugely controversial free that Dublin got while level in injury time against Kildare:


    I'm not putting it up there from an "even the referees help Dublin" point of view. I'm putting it up simply to show how close Kildare were to Dublin at that time too.

    I can't speak for Kildare, but I do know it's highly unlikely Wexford will ever go so close to winning Leinster again. Just nine years ago, a genuine "golden generation" of players and a good manager was good enough to bring us close. But now, even that wouldn't be enough, because of how Dublin have become so dominant.

    There was talk above of "delusion". Greatest example of it simply has to be the claim that Dublin "are the saviours of the GAA".

    Even leaving aside how the GAA is about more than gaelic football (has anybody ever heard of hurling? ;)), they've hardly been the saviour of it. It's more likely that ongoing dominance, with no end in sight, will be its ruination.

    Would agree with some of what you said, although not the ruination bit. In terms of Wexford their Football resurgence seemed to coincide with the a lean spell for the Hurlers.

    Is there a geographical spilt in Wexford between football and hurling


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭Uncle Pierre


    ShyMets wrote: »
    Would agree with some of what you said, although not the ruination bit. In terms of Wexford their Football resurgence seemed to coincide with the a lean spell for the Hurlers.

    Is there a geographical spilt in Wexford between football and hurling

    Unfortunately, the lean spell in Wexford hurling has gone on since 1968, apart from the All-Ireland victory of 1996 and few minor bright spots since then, such as winning Leinster in 1997, 2004 and again last year.

    Previously pointed out how we were in 11 All-Ireland hurling finals in the 26 years between 1951 and 1977. We've only been in one since then. Oh, if only we had a Wexford Taoiseach, with a few friends on the Sports Council. ;)

    There's no real geographic split in Wexford, the way there is in many other dual counties. Obviously some clubs concentrate one game more than the other, but there's not a single large area where you could say either "it's all football there" or "it's all hurling there". I actually think it's part of our problem, but that's a whole other story.


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