The Leinster Championship is dead.

Rock77 · 27-11-2020 11:38PM

Dickie10 wrote: »

how about a dublin b team? or put in a team from fingal and dun laoighrie /rathdown? theres a precednece for fingal with the hurling.

How about just stop giving Dublin way more money than everyone else?

Rock77 · 27-11-2020 11:41PM

tritium wrote: »

Did I use the word rigged? No, no I didn’t. I can’t imagine why you’d put words into my mouth so unless you had an agenda that my posts sat uncomfortably with... Kerry benefitted though from a remarkably handy championship structure that ensured they came out of Munster fit and fresh and rating to go. Above board sure, fair? That’s more debatable. But of course I would never say that they cheated or rigged things. It’s not as if they were taking bags of cash from big European sportswear firms and the GAA just gave them a gentle tap on the nuckles to get their share after all. That would be professional sport after all and as posters here keep telling us that’s a dublin issue

I’m trying to sieve through the sarcasm but u said ‘basically rigged’ in your original post.. so nobody put words in your mouth... did you say rigged? Yes, yes you did...

Sheep breeder · 27-11-2020 11:42PM

Open the Pubs wrote: »

The point was made about club membership fees in Dublin on OTB earlier too. Lads reckoned Kilmacud Crokes take in, at a conservative estimate, around €750,000 annually from membership fees and have over 1 million euro in the bank. As such they have employed 2 full time sports scientists or coaches, I forget which he said.

Back thirty years ago crokes were a big club and seriously well run with a lot of teams playing in all grades, played challenge match’s against them back then and they would supply a team to standard you wanted to be playing to.

Rolo2010 · 27-11-2020 11:43PM

Dickie10 wrote: »

once their rolled out as a county team, then make minor and u 20 teams and all players from those clubs dont play with dublin but with those new counties it might lessedn power of dublin over time plus we would have 2 new teams and to be honest there huge differences in culture and geography between Dun Laoighrie/Rathdown and Fingal anyway. I guess Fingal would be based out of Swords town and have all the countryside clubs to pick from. Would they be the culchie Dublin team then?!

What about Dublin City and South Dublin? Fingal would not be a culchie team. Ballymun, Finglas, and Blanch are all in Fingal. Balbriggin isn't culchie land either. I suggest you take a look at Google Maps.

Uncle Pierre · 27-11-2020 11:45PM

tritium wrote: »

Did I use the word rigged? No, no I didn’t.

From post #380:

tritium wrote: »

it was basically rigging it for cork or Kerry to win the provincial title.

So no, you didn't use the word "rigged". You used the word "rigging" instead. Apologies for misquoting you, if the difference between "rigged" and "rigging it" means that much to you.

Dickie10 · 28-11-2020 12:12AM

Rolo2010 wrote: »

What about Dublin City and South Dublin? Fingal would not be a culchie team. Ballymun, Finglas, and Blanch are all in Fingal. Balbriggin isn't culchie land either. I suggest you take a look at Google Maps.

But what about all the farms and countryside?

Rolo2010 · 28-11-2020 12:15AM

Dickie10 wrote: »

But what about all the farms and countryside?

In Fingal. Doesn't make it a culchie team.

Sheep breeder · 28-11-2020 12:22AM

Sonny678 wrote: »

New Meath talent is not all from Rataoth; not one of the new talent that emerged in Meath in last 2 years is from Rataoth.14 new players debuted for Meath in last 2 years all 19 20 21. Not one of the 14 new debutants are from Rataoth.
.
Jordan Morris from Nobber ( north Meath)
Shane Walsh - Enfield
Ethan Devine Enfield
James Conlon Bettystown
Dara Campion - Skryne
Jason Scully - Oldcastle North Meath
Cathal Hickey - Senchalstown
Eoin Harkin - Dunsany
Cian McBride - St Ultans North Meath
Dominic Yorke - Meath hill North Meath
Matthew Costello - Dunshaughlin
Jack O Connor - Curraha
Ronan Ryan Summerhill
Ross Ryan Summerhill

Not one of the new young players are from Rataoth, Ashbourne or Dunboyne. 1 from Dunshaughlin. There are 4 new young players from North Meath. Many of the players are from more rural Meath then the suburbs.
Thats not to say we might see more players come from Rataoth or Ashbourne in coming years. But to say most of the new talent in Meath is from Rataoth is wrong when not one of the 13 new young players who debuted in last 2 years are not from Rataoth. There is 4 players on the panel from Rataoth but they are not new young talent. 4 Rataoth players are Conor McGill who is 28 and made his debut 6 years ago, Byran McMahon who is 27 and made his debut 7 years ago, Eamon Wallace who is 26 and made his debut 8 years ago and Joey Wallace who is 25 who made hie debut 6 years ago.

Regards Meath with big population, wealthy counties. Again population doesnt gurantre sucess. When Meath was winning All Irelands it had smallest population of All Ireland winning countires along with Cavan and Roscommon in 1930s 1940s 1950s 1960s. Meath were the smallest counties who won Sam with smallest population from 1960 to 2000 along with Offaly. Meath was outside top 15 biggest counties in Ireland when they won Sam with 66000 in 67. When Sean Boylan took over in 1982 Meath had populatuon of 95000. Meath basically was a version of Offaly but with bwtter land and more sparsely populated prior to 2000. Meath ans kildare now have rural areas, but also huge suburbs which are extension of the greater dublin area. Meath and kildsre are now more like Wicklow. Meath has gone from a county with characteristics similar to midlands county like Offaly to an eastern county like Wicklo.

. Meath kildare and Wicklow are all similar type counties. IMeath and kildare have become new Wickkows in terms of populatiom, suburbs etc. Well Wicklow shows population doesnt guranteee sucess. Look at Wicklow look at Antrim look at limerick football, look at Dublin prior to 2011, look at kildare for 70 years before Dwyer came. Population doesnt gurantee sucess. There is chance Meath and kildare might struggle ever to have sucess again. Look at Wicklow no leinster titles. If Wicklow with big population, wealthy county have always struggled to obtain sucess. And Meath & kildsre have transformed into similar counties like Wicklow. There is no gurantee both counties will have sucess in the future. Regards sleeping gaints kildare have been sleeping gaint for the last 90 years. Cavan in many ways are Sleeping gaint, so is Antrim and so was Dublin for long time. There is long history of sleeping gaints in gaa.

You say Wicklow has had no success and it is down to one thing the county Board, the same old cronies for the last thirty years playing lannigans ball one stepped in the chairman position and the other to the Leinster council and back and forth, example from a Wicklow friend who’s son was a minor 3 years ago went to play a tournament in Longford and on the way back stopped in to hotel for soup and sandwich for the team, the lads from the county board and management went in for the full dinner in the next room. The mates son is playing soccer in Dublin now and no interest in the gaa.

gormdubhgorm · 28-11-2020 12:54AM

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

This is the trope but it's not true. "His imports" were all either living or working in the county. That you'd get this wrong would lead anyone to doubt all your pronouncements.

Come on, that is some spin on it.

Micko got his son Karl to move to to Kildare to play for them, just one example!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-20345763.html

"Resigned to the fact he would not improve on the three championship appearances he made in the green and gold over 1992 and 1993, nor the nine league appearances he made in ’93 scoring 3-21, (Karl) O’Dwyer parted from Kerry in 1997.

A few months after he secured a teaching job in Rathangan - before moving to Confey where he continues to work today - he was a Kildare player under the management of his father Mick."

When Micko managed Wicklow didn't he poach one of Carlow's best players Thomas Walsh?

https://hoganstand.com/county/kildare/article/index/14281

Micko was notorious for the 'transfer market'.

He was cute hoor worked his celebrity well, for the good of his teams.

Rock77 · 28-11-2020 12:57AM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Come on that is some spin on it.

Micko got his son Karl to move to to Kildare to play for them just one example!

When Micko managed Wicklow didn't he poach one of Carlow's best players Thomas Walsh?

https://hoganstand.com/county/kildare/article/index/14281

Micko was notorious for the 'transfer market'.

He was cute hoor worked his celebrity well for the good of his teams.

Yes but did he work within the rules? Could any county do what he did? If so, then it’s fair game, a level playing field.

No special treatment for one county....

jmayo · 28-11-2020 12:58AM

Sheep breeder wrote: »

You say Wicklow has had no success and it is down to one thing the county Board, the same old cronies for the last thirty years playing lannigans ball one stepped in the chairman position and the other to the Leinster council and back and forth, example from a Wicklow friend who’s son was a minor 3 years ago went to play a tournament in Longford and on the way back stopped in to hotel for soup and sandwich for the team, the lads from the county board and management went in for the full dinner in the next room. The mates son is playing soccer in Dublin now and no interest in the gaa.

Now to be fair underage soccer in Wicklow is a disaster as well and that would be why your mate's son is playing his soccer in Dublin leagues.
I know of one instance where u16/u17 team travelled the length of the county for match. Both teams had warmed up and togged out for 3 pm kick off, but no sign of ref.
Someone from home club phoned Wicklow League to be told "oh yeah the ref had to cancel this morning and we didn't have replacement".
They couldn't be ar**d to let either club know so one travelled an hour and both wasted their saturday afternoon.

That is the type of shyte Wicklow are at in soccer and in GAA.
Bunch of useless feckless halfwits seem to always end up running stuff in that county and all the hard work the grassroots do is wasted.

tritium · 28-11-2020 09:02AM

Rock77 wrote: »

Yes but did he work within the rules? Could any county do what he did? If so, then it’s fair game, a level playing field.

No special treatment for one county....

Didn’t dublin work within the rules? Is anyone saying they stole the money? Could any other county have come up with similar plans and implemented them?

elefant · 28-11-2020 09:35AM

tritium wrote: »

Didn’t dublin work within the rules? Is anyone saying they stole the money? Could any other county have come up with similar plans and implemented them?

Yes. No. No.

Uncle Pierre · 28-11-2020 10:36AM

tritium wrote: »

Didn’t dublin work within the rules? Is anyone saying they stole the money? Could any other county have come up with similar plans and implemented them?

You're missing the point again. Micko and Kildare/Wicklow/whoever else worked within rules and a system that was the same for everybody, even if there was a bit of "cute hoor-ism" about it. Dublin worked within the rules of a system that was available to them only.

But to answer your questions:

Didn’t Dublin work within the rules? - Yes. Have already said that.

Is anyone saying they stole the money? - No.

Could any other county have come up with similar plans and implemented them? - An emphatic NO. They could have come up with grand plans all right, but the chances of getting the money to implement them would have been slim to none.

The Dublin funding became available through the intervention of Bertie Ahern and his influence with the Irish Sports Council. Think about that for a minute - the Taoiseach of the entire country going out of his way to secure a multi-million euro deal for GAA in his native county but not for anywhere else.

Imagine the outcry there would have been if Enda Kenny had even thought about trying the same for Mayo. Or if Michéal Martin tried the same for the hypothetical "Rejuvenate Cork hurling" programme that I keep throwing out.

dunnerc · 28-11-2020 10:44AM

Rolo2010 wrote: »

What about Dublin City and South Dublin? Fingal would not be a culchie team. Ballymun, Finglas, and Blanch are all in Fingal. Balbriggin isn't culchie land either. I suggest you take a look at Google Maps.

Ballymun and Finglas are not Fingal

Uncle Pierre · 28-11-2020 11:12AM

dunnerc wrote: »

Ballymun and Finglas are not Fingal

This is true. Ironic that the one who suggested looking at Google Maps should have had a look himself first.

Rolo2010 wrote: »

Ballymun, Finglas, and Blanch are all in Fingal......I suggest you take a look at Google Maps.

So just to help him out:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Fingal,+Co.+Dublin/@53.4443458,-6.4157234,11z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x486710e503e56e29:0x109890ca878afc0c!8m2!3d53.4923939!4d-6.2539777

gormdubhgorm · 28-11-2020 11:19AM

Rock77 wrote: »

Yes but did he work within the rules? Could any county do what he did? If so, then it’s fair game, a level playing field.

No special treatment for one county....

I never said it was not within the rules fair play to Micko for exploiting it. It earned him success.

I wonder why the same thing cannot be continued with Meath or Kildare today due to their proximity to Dublin you would think that there would be lots of players living or working in Kildare or Meath. That would like to play for either county.

Plus Kildare have the curragh surely there would be big lumps of army lads from all around the country, working their willing to play ball for the lillywhites? Plus they now have Jack O'Connor a top class high profile GAA manager.

major interest · 28-11-2020 11:34AM

In terms of the dominance of the Dublin footballers, surely one thing that could be tried is a re-emphasis within Dublin GAA itself more towards hurling (funding, structures etc.)

Despite the improvements their hurlers have made in the last 15 years they are still not competing for All Irelands and have only one provincial title. As Donal Og pointed out on the Sunday Game recently, Dublin do not produce the type of high quality forwards that the footballers produce and any of the better dual players (e.g. Connolly, O Callaghan) inevitable opt for the footballers.

While hurling is never likely to be as big a draw as football in the county, redressing this imbalance would seem like a logical goal for a Dublin GAA and the GAA as a whole.

Akesh · 28-11-2020 11:37AM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I never said it was not within the rules fair play to Micko for exploiting it. It earned him success.

I wonder why the same thing cannot be continued with Meath or Kildare today due to their proximity to Dublin you would think that there would be lots of players living or working in Kildare or Meath. That would like to play for either county.

Plus Kildare have the curragh surely there would be big lumps of army lads from all around the country, working their willing to play ball for the lillywhites? Plus they now have Jack O'Connor a top class high profile GAA manager.

Yes but the numbers you're talking about are very low. The problem really doesn't lie with the GAA. It's government policy, where they have allowed the private sector to dictate the major centralisation of work in Ireland in Dublin. You have lots of lads from all around the country studying, working and living in Dublin. The advantages of this have been obvious to Dublin.

Until you can still work and live in the local community nothing will change. At inter county the above problem becomes obvious as some very good players just opt out or don't even bother playing due to the commitments involved in an inter county set up. Then you add in the numbers and financial advantage Dublin had anyway and it becomes a joke of a competition at the highest level.

At underage, when you consider the resources available, Kildare and Meath have done very well in comparison to Dublin, particularly Kildare.

Dublin should be winning 99.99% games on numbers alone. Counties of a fraction of Dublin's population can't and won't ever compete against a county of 1M+ with modern resources.

The Leinster championship is long dead at senior inter county level and there is no brining it back to the level of competition two decades ago. The country has moved on.

Rock77 · 28-11-2020 12:37PM

major interest wrote: »

In terms of the dominance of the Dublin footballers, surely one thing that could be tried is a re-emphasis within Dublin GAA itself more towards hurling (funding, structures etc.)

Despite the improvements their hurlers have made in the last 15 years they are still not competing for All Irelands and have only one provincial title. As Donal Og pointed out on the Sunday Game recently, Dublin do not produce the type of high quality forwards that the footballers produce and any of the better dual players (e.g. Connolly, O Callaghan) inevitable opt for the footballers.

While hurling is never likely to be as big a draw as football in the county, redressing this imbalance would seem like a logical goal for a Dublin GAA and the GAA as a whole.

In terms of Dublin footballers dominance, why would Dublin GAA try anything to change it?

gormdubhgorm · 28-11-2020 12:38PM

Akesh wrote: »

Yes but the numbers you're talking about are very low. The problem really doesn't lie with the GAA. It's government policy, where they have allowed the private sector to dictate the major centralisation of work in Ireland in Dublin. You have lots of lads from all around the country studying, working and living in Dublin. The advantages of this have been obvious to Dublin.

I can't argue with that fair point. Plus as the country lads grow up they end up setting up clubs, or being integral parts to the life of Dublin GAA clubs and the cycle continues Dublin get stronger.

But I was thinking by their proximity to Dublin surely it gives Meath and Kildare advantages as many are dormitory towns and so on.Leading to the big smoke.

Maybe a tweak in the rules in the GAA for Kildare and Meath? Because there must be load of players falling through the cracks GAA wise who come up to Dublin to work and it is too difficult for them to travel home to play for their home club.

Because I believe for any province to be considered a proper competition there should be at least three competitive counties. Otherwise it is a waste of time with either two teams dominating in a duopoly or in Dublin's case one team.
If there is not three competitive counties in each province. They should either be scrapped or reformed.

I would have the main AI as follows:

Donegal, Mayo and Galway as the three in 'Province 1'
Tyrone, Monaghan, Kildare in 'Province 2'
Kerry, Dublin, Cork in another 'Province 3'
Tipp, Meath, Cavan in another 'Province 4'

Each province has a home and away group phase of at least 4 games each

The top two of each group go towards the AI QF's which are knock out. An open draw QF would be ideal and keep the whole thing a bit random.

Based on NFL rating and team performances on a 2/3 year cycle the leagues can be rejigged. No backdoor or any of that craic.

Rock77 · 28-11-2020 12:51PM

tritium wrote: »

Didn’t dublin work within the rules? Is anyone saying they stole the money? Could any other county have come up with similar plans and implemented them?

This has been answered very well already and I have a sneaky suspicion you already knew before you asked but...

Yes Dublin worked within the rules.

Not one person said Dublin stole the money.

All other counties could have come up with similar plans.

Here’s the important bit however...

No other county could have implemented these plans because only on county was given millions by the GAA to do so.

You are so defensive about this for no reason, nobody has said any of this is Dublin’s fault! Dublin have done brilliantly to become the best team in the country for years now.. the money is not the sole reason for their success.

The fact remains that Dublin have and continue to have an advantage over every other county, that is the fault of the GAA

Rock77 · 28-11-2020 12:58PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I never said it was not within the rules fair play to Micko for exploiting it. It earned him success.

I wonder why the same thing cannot be continued with Meath or Kildare today due to their proximity to Dublin you would think that there would be lots of players living or working in Kildare or Meath. That would like to play for either county.

Plus Kildare have the curragh surely there would be big lumps of army lads from all around the country, working their willing to play ball for the lillywhites? Plus they now have Jack O'Connor a top class high profile GAA manager.

Yeah I hear you, I have no doubt that there’s lots of things Kildare could do to improve.

However in my opinion the solution to the problem with Leinster football should begin with having all counties treated fairly.

major interest · 28-11-2020 01:21PM

Rock77 wrote: »

In terms of Dublin footballers dominance, why would Dublin GAA try anything to change it?

Dublin is capable of competing for All Irelands in both. The current situation is lopsided and results in dominance in one code and not competing at all in the other. It would make sense to tip the balance in whatever way they can towards hurling for that reason.

Rock77 · 28-11-2020 01:30PM

major interest wrote: »

Dublin is capable of competing for All Irelands in both. The current situation is lopsided and results in dominance in one code and not competing at all in the other. It would make sense to tip the balance in whatever way they can towards hurling for that reason.

Sorry yeah I see your point now, yes you would imagine that those involved in Dublin hurling would be calling for this.

Although hasn’t Dublin hurling made great strides over the last number of years aswell?

And my point was with Dublin football going so well, why would they change anything?

Dyr · 28-11-2020 01:34PM

Rolo2010 wrote: »

What about Dublin City and South Dublin? Fingal would not be a culchie team. Ballymun, Finglas, and Blanch are all in Fingal. Balbriggin isn't culchie land either. I suggest you take a look at Google Maps.

You might want to take a look at google maps too, Ballymun is not in Fingal. Even though it was included in Fingal for hurling project

ShyMets · 28-11-2020 01:35PM

The approach I would take with Dublin is to split them into 4. If after doing so Dublin remain competitive I would continue to split until Dublin no longer remain a force.

We can then at that point go back to believing that the Football Championship is completive and any number of teams can win it.

Problem solved!

major interest · 28-11-2020 01:40PM

Rock77 wrote: »

Sorry yeah I see your point now, yes you would imagine that those involved in Dublin hurling would be calling for this.

Although hasn’t Dublin hurling made great strides over the last number of years aswell?

And my point was with Dublin football going so well, why would they change anything?

I think Dublin GAA will need to consider it carefully. The footballers have won 8 out of 10 All Irelands. That kind of dominance (which is likely to continue if no change happens) will make the competition in its current guise unviable realistically. In that scenario, the GAA will be forced to act to address the dominance (whether that be splitting the county into 4 etc.)

My point was that it is actually in their own best interests to try engineer it so that hurling takes a bit more precedence. I think a situation where Dublin footballers win 5 and hurlers win 3 in a decade is a bit more tenable than footballers winning 8 in a decade. Its the same number of titles overall for the county but the spread means that there is more semblance of competition.

The Lost Sheep · 28-11-2020 01:44PM

ShyMets wrote: »

The approach I would take with Dublin is to split them into 4. If after doing so Dublin remain competitive I would continue to split until Dublin no longer remain a force.

We can then at that point go back to believing that the Football Championship is completive and any number of teams can win it.

Problem solved!

That is just missing the point and just looks petty.
Do you do the same with Kilkenny, Tipp in hurling. Same with Kerry?
Splitting Dublin doesnt help the majority of counties. Most Leinster counties have won very few titles and splitting dublin wont help them at all.

ShyMets · 28-11-2020 01:52PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That is just missing the point and just looks petty.
Do you do the same with Kilkenny, Tipp in hurling. Same with Kerry?
Splitting Dublin doesnt help the majority of counties. Most Leinster counties have won very few titles and splitting dublin wont help them at all.

My post was in jest. Splitting Dublin does nothing to solve the overall issues of the GAA.

People point to the Leinster Championship and rightly point out that its a one horse race. They will refer back to the late 90's and early 00's and say look how competitive it was. And they're right but thats the exception. Leinster has been dominated by Dublin and Meath with other teams occasionally challenging.

Whats happening now is one team has had a prolonged series of dominance. This does need to be addressed.

But lets depart from the fallacy that Leinster was always some sort of competitive gem in the Provincial structure

The Leinster Championship is dead.

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