Irish Archbishops call for Catholics to be allowed to attend Mass

as_mo_bhosca · 02-11-2020 8:02pm

John Hutton wrote: »

It's fifty people, all masked and socially distanced at 2 meters. There will be more people in a supermarket, which would probably be a smaller building.

Your definition of "essential" is merely based on the economy? Would you also ban weddings and funerals? (at which 25 are currently allowed)? Why has pretty much the entire rest of the world, including secular France, decided not to ban Mass? They seem to think that exercising a fundamental human right is "essential".

Since when is going to Mass about money? People are not asking to go to Mass so they can make a donation. It probably would be easier for many priests if the churches remained closed for the duration but the Bishops have reacted to pressure from the laity on this point who are annoyed at being denied access to Mass for an indefinite period.

I wouldn't place any trust in people who think mass is essential to follow scientific guidelines to be fair. Look at the level of maturity shown by three priests recently in speaking about this. One Kerry priest repeating misinformation in his Sunday sermon, despite the fact that he was corrected after first making false claims on the Saturday. Then comparing this lockdown to the terror unleashed by the black and tans 100 years ago. How can you trust people with that mind set to follow strict guidelines.
Anyway, I'm done with all this. I find it hard to reason with one side that basically believes in magic and believes that their belief in magic should have some sort of say in how a government runs a country.

John Hutton · 02-11-2020 8:12pm

as_mo_bhosca wrote: »

I wouldn't place any trust in people who think mass is essential to follow scientific guidelines to be fair. Look at the level of maturity shown by three priests recently in speaking about this. One Kerry priest repeating misinformation in his Sunday sermon, despite the fact that he was corrected after first making false claims on the Saturday. Then comparing this lockdown to the terror unleashed by the black and tans 100 years ago. How can you trust people with that mind set to follow strict guidelines.
Anyway, I'm done with all this. I find it hard to reason with one side that basically believes in magic and believes that their belief in magic should have some sort of say in how a government runs a country.

Ok, so your objection is down to your bigoted views about Catholics. Got it.

growleaves · 02-11-2020 8:13pm

as_mo_bhosca wrote: »

I wouldn't place any trust in people who think mass is essential to follow scientific guidelines to be fair. Look at the level of maturity shown by three priests recently in speaking about this. One Kerry priest repeating misinformation in his Sunday sermon, despite the fact that he was corrected after first making false claims on the Saturday. Then comparing this lockdown to the terror unleashed by the black and tans 100 years ago. How can you trust people with that mind set to follow strict guidelines.
Anyway, I'm done with all this. I find it hard to reason with one side that basically believes in magic and believes that their belief in magic should have some sort of say in how a government runs a country.

If you are that hostile to religion you shouldn't be offering an opinion in the first place.

Obviously an atheist with contempt for religion is going to offer up waffle about mass being "non-essential".

The country isn't a toy that the government can twist into any shape it likes. We all have a say in whether we condone these extreme, disruptive shutdowns.

as_mo_bhosca · 02-11-2020 8:33pm

John Hutton wrote: »

Ok, so your objection is down to your bigoted views about Catholics. Got it.

No, it's down to it not being necessary. I love going to the gym, I go 5 mornings per week when it's open. But it's not essential. It would make as much a difference to my life as mass would to others. But, it's a global pandemic and we are living in unprecedented times. I'm able to be a big boy about and not throw my toys out of the pram because I want it.

as_mo_bhosca · 02-11-2020 8:35pm

growleaves wrote: »

If you are that hostile to religion you shouldn't be offering an opinion in the first place.

Obviously an atheist with contempt for religion is going to offer up waffle about mass being "non-essential".

The country isn't a toy that the government can twist into any shape it likes. We all have a say in whether we condone these extreme, disruptive shutdowns.

What is hostile? I just called out some pretty reprehensible behaviour by priests on the matter. Those comments really weren't showing leadership or maturity. Or do you think it's OK to compare restrictions put in place for public health to the atrocities carried out by the black and tans?

John Hutton · 06-11-2020 3:34pm

Archbishop Eamon Martin has called on people to lobby their TDs to rescind the ban on religious worship at levels 3, 4 and 5 on the governments Covid plan, or at least not to ban it at levels lower than the top level, level 5.

Separately, Declan Ganley has initiated Court proceedings against the government arguing that the ban on Mass and religious worship is unconstitutional.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/declan-ganley-in-legal-challenge-to-covid-restrictions-on-religious-services-39714327.html

John Hutton · 27-11-2020 10:37pm

Mass back from Tuesday

https://www.irishcatholic.com/public-masses-to-be-permitted-from-tuesday/

Rrrrrr2 · 28-11-2020 12:18am

John Hutton wrote: »

Mass back from Tuesday

https://www.irishcatholic.com/public-masses-to-be-permitted-from-tuesday/

Good and it should never stopped- I don’t know what the Catholic Church, Church of Ireland and all others were thinking of by allowing their services to shut like this.
I’m not my very religious but it means a great deal to many people to worship freely- an absolute cornerstone of our constitution after all. I sincerely hope not to see this carry on repeated

Bubbaclaus · 28-11-2020 12:46am

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

Good and it should never stopped- I don’t know what the Catholic Church, Church of Ireland and all others were thinking of by allowing their services to shut like this.
I’m not my very religious but it means a great deal to many people to worship freely- an absolute cornerstone of our constitution after all. I sincerely hope not to see this carry on repeated

Plenty of people are making sacrifices. People are well capable of worshiping whatever deity they believe in freely from their homes.

Cluedo Monopoly · 28-11-2020 12:53am

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

Good and it should never stopped- I don’t know what the Catholic Church, Church of Ireland and all others were thinking of by allowing their services to shut like this.
I’m not my very religious but it means a great deal to many people to worship freely- an absolute cornerstone of our constitution after all. I sincerely hope not to see this carry on repeated

Wowser, I had a quick look at your post history out of utter curiousity. You're a very angry man, I think you need to go to confession asap. Covid is driving you nuts. Relentless. Take a break for your own sake.

Rrrrrr2 · 28-11-2020 1:03am

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Wowser, I had a quick look at your post history out of utter curiousity. You're a very angry man, I think you need to go to confession asap. Covid is driving you nuts. Relentless. Take a break for your own sake.

Yea yea- what an utter utter oddball you are going back to check a posters history. I won’t be checking yours because frankly I don't give two tuppence worth for your opinion on me or anything else- this is a consistent tactic of the lockdowners- denigrate anyone that opposes their view as mentally ill etc. The Nazis used the same with anyone that opposed them too and it’s one if the oldest caricatures in history used by those of a totalitarian bent

feargale · 28-11-2020 2:46am

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

Good and it should never stopped- I don’t know what the Catholic Church, Church of Ireland and all others were thinking of by allowing their services to shut like this.
I’m not my very religious but it means a great deal to many people to worship freely- an absolute cornerstone of our constitution after all. I sincerely hope not to see this carry on repeated

Mass is of the utmost importance to alot of people, but the reality is that we are in a life and death situation - does that need to be said? Church services were cancelled on the recommendation of NPHET. If you had a serious illness and your doctor advised you to forego church what would you do? Would you go against his advice? Do you see this as an issue of religious freedom?

When Ireland had a foot and mouth crisis in 2001 Archbishop Brady cancelled the mass in parts of his archdiocese. To the best of my recollection he did so without prompting or pressure from any government. There was no outcry. Are cattle more important than people?

I'm only sorry that the government hasn't followed medical advice in all respects. Newfoundland fishermen went ballistic when their government restricted cod fishing to preserve stocks. As a result the cod came near to extinction. That is the choice facing us: take the bull by the horns or open up now and have phase three and lockdown again and open again for phase four to follow. That will not serve the commercial lobby or angry worshippers. We need to face reality.

I haven't seen most of my family in almost a year, and don't expect to meet them at Christmas. So be it.
I will be said by medical opinion, not by any interest group.

Saralace · 28-11-2020 2:53am

Mass is quite dangerous but more so with singing. Or saying prayers. It will also depend how big church is. Bigger the better
Also how big the crowd. Also do people stand outside talking to each other. If you have to go wear a n95 or kn95 face mask and face shield wear gloves
Keep distance
Wash your clothes and shower when you get home use hand sanitizer

Graces7 · 28-11-2020 8:01am

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Plenty of people are making sacrifices. People are well capable of worshiping whatever deity they believe in freely from their homes.

As a devout Catholic I am endorsing this.

I have not been to mass etc for 2 years. My immune system is down so that would involve the same risk as going to mass in covid times.

My faith is stronger and fuller than ever.

If your faith is dependent solely or wholly on attending mass I would question the validity of it. And especially in these times of very real infection risk; a double risk, of catching covid at mass and also of taking the infection home with you afterwards.

It is irresponsible in the extreme. The opposite of what true faith is
Faith that He will feed us wherever and however we live our faith.

The Church agrees as it dropped the Sunday obligation. So obey them? Obedience is the key to faith. Loving those around you enough is also a large part of it.

Repelled by the idea of any Christian insisting on church attendance in these times

Graces7 · 28-11-2020 8:23am

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

Good and it should never stopped- I don’t know what the Catholic Church, Church of Ireland and all others were thinking of by allowing their services to shut like this.
I’m not my very religious but it means a great deal to many people to worship freely- an absolute cornerstone of our constitution after all. I sincerely hope not to see this carry on repeated

Th e fact that you can write this in apparent ignorance of the fact we are in a pandemic with a highly infectious virus shows how totally necessary it is to lose gatherings down.

constitutional laws have to bow to emergency situations. period. Why else are the rules we are bade follow being issued? The Churches have no exemption nor should they even consider seeking any.

Jesus was asked about obeying the laws; He bade folk; obey the laws.

And love others enough not to endanger them, please.

And as for worship? You do not need to be in a large building among others to worship! You really don't. Just go outside a while!

Jesus says that too... When you pray go into your room and pray in private .. not in public

OK I am off. Advent starts tomorrow and it is a Retreat time here as much as is possible. Praying deeply in solitude here. Try it? See you at Christmas. The Feast of the Nativity.

Zebra3 · 28-11-2020 10:11am

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

Good and it should never stopped- I don’t know what the Catholic Church, Church of Ireland and all others were thinking of by allowing their services to shut like this.
I’m not my very religious but it means a great deal to many people to worship freely- an absolute cornerstone of our constitution after all. I sincerely hope not to see this carry on repeated

Our beloved constitution that the RC church trampled all over.

And even today it still sees itself as above the state.

whisky_galore · 28-11-2020 10:18am

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

Good and it should never stopped- I don’t know what the Catholic Church, Church of Ireland and all others were thinking of by allowing their services to shut like this.
I’m not my very religious but it means a great deal to many people to worship freely- an absolute cornerstone of our constitution after all. I sincerely hope not to see this carry on repeated

Having no skin in the game, but as mentioned you're free to worship whatever way you like in your own home. You can make a direct call without the operator y'know.

God isn't confined to the big house. He's everywhere.
If you need mass to socialise rather than worship I think you're confusing it with a pub.

Cluedo Monopoly · 28-11-2020 10:20am

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

Yea yea- what an utter utter oddball you are going back to check a posters history. I won’t be checking yours because frankly I don't give two tuppence worth for your opinion on me or anything else- this is a consistent tactic of the lockdowners- denigrate anyone that opposes their view as mentally ill etc. The Nazis used the same with anyone that opposed them too and it’s one if the oldest caricatures in history used by those of a totalitarian bent

OK, I am really sorry for annoying you. Sorry about that. Good luck in the future. Yes I am the oddball. Sorry.

John Hutton · 28-11-2020 10:36am

Graces7 wrote: »

As a devout Catholic I am endorsing this.

I have not been to mass etc for 2 years. My immune system is down so that would involve the same risk as going to mass in covid times.

My faith is stronger and fuller than ever.

If your faith is dependent solely or wholly on attending mass I would question the validity of it. And especially in these times of very real infection risk; a double risk, of catching covid at mass and also of taking the infection home with you afterwards.

It is irresponsible in the extreme. The opposite of what true faith is
Faith that He will feed us wherever and however we live our faith.

The Church agrees as it dropped the Sunday obligation. So obey them? Obedience is the key to faith. Loving those around you enough is also a large part of it.

Repelled by the idea of any Christian insisting on church attendance in these times

Assisting at Mass and receiving holy communion is the best way, bar none, of worshipping God. The sacraments, which many have been denied, are vital.

Given we have such large buildings, with proper precautions it can be done safely and if you are vulnerable dont go, simple as.

John Hutton · 28-11-2020 10:40am

Graces7 wrote: »

Th e fact that you can write this in apparent ignorance of the fact we are in a pandemic with a highly infectious virus shows how totally necessary it is to lose gatherings down.

constitutional laws have to bow to emergency situations. period. Why else are the rules we are bade follow being issued? The Churches have no exemption nor should they even consider seeking any.

Jesus was asked about obeying the laws; He bade folk; obey the laws.

And love others enough not to endanger them, please.

And as for worship? You do not need to be in a large building among others to worship! You really don't. Just go outside a while!

Jesus says that too... When you pray go into your room and pray in private .. not in public

OK I am off. Advent starts tomorrow and it is a Retreat time here as much as is possible. Praying deeply in solitude here. Try it? See you at Christmas. The Feast of the Nativity.

For a "devout catholic" you have a way of twisting things... To try and use Jesus words to imply that Mass is unimportant or unecessary is dishonest.

Anyway, worship is permitted again from Tuesday.

Cluedo Monopoly · 28-11-2020 11:00am

John Hutton wrote: »

For a "devout catholic" you have a way of twisting things... To try and use Jesus words to imply that Mass is unimportant or unecessary is dishonest.

Anyway, worship is permitted again from Tuesday.

Ah lovely. You're not doing 'devout' right is basically what you are saying. Almost Borg like. Only one viewpoint allowed especially within large worship buildings where we can outline your errors.

Worship is permitted at all times everywhere. So is delusion.

John Hutton · 28-11-2020 11:02am

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Ah lovely. You're not doing 'devout' right is basically what you are saying. Almost Borg like.

Worship is permitted at all times everywhere. So is delusion.

Maybe I was mistaken in thinking that "devout" implied agreement and adherence to the teachings of the Catholic faith. How would you interpret it?

Cluedo Monopoly · 28-11-2020 11:05am

John Hutton wrote: »

Maybe I was mistaken in thinking that "devout" implied agreement and adherence to the teachings of the Catholic faith. How would you interpret it?

'having or showing deep religious feeling or commitment'

Good day to you Sir, good day!

GarIT · 28-11-2020 11:48am

John Hutton wrote: »

Assisting at Mass and receiving holy communion is the best way, bar none, of worshipping God. The sacraments, which many have been denied, are vital.

Given we have such large buildings, with proper precautions it can be done safely and if you are vulnerable dont go, simple as.

I don't see how you can recieve commuinion without coming within 2m of someone but if you can great.

HerrKuehn · 28-11-2020 11:53am

GarIT wrote: »

I don't see how you can recieve commuinion without coming within 2m of someone but if you can great.

I know this is probably not much use to anyone as mass will start again on Tuesday, but you can buy the wafers on amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cavanagh-Altar-Bread-Whole-packed/dp/B07CXX4LK4/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=Cavanagh+Altar+Bread&qid=1606560783&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzMlEyUk40OTEwMTREJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMjUyMzI2MlY1Wko1SEY4TVRQSiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMjAzOTEwM1RZT1VWNkVNSlFTQiZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

is_that_so · 28-11-2020 12:13pm

GarIT wrote: »

I don't see how you can recieve commuinion without coming within 2m of someone but if you can great.

It's a 5 second interaction at most and there will be masks. You could win the Euromillions a dozen times over at those odds of getting infected.

GarIT · 28-11-2020 1:21pm

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I know this is probably not much use to anyone as mass will start again on Tuesday, but you can buy the wafers on amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cavanagh-Altar-Bread-Whole-packed/dp/B07CXX4LK4/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=Cavanagh+Altar+Bread&qid=1606560783&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzMlEyUk40OTEwMTREJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMjUyMzI2MlY1Wko1SEY4TVRQSiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMjAzOTEwM1RZT1VWNkVNSlFTQiZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

That could have been done all along then, what was the problem with closing the churches?

is_that_so wrote: »

It's a 5 second interaction at most and there will be masks. You could win the Euromillions a dozen times over at those odds of getting infected.

Especially as it involves contact with the same object that you thne put in your mouth I'd be wary of it. Look at the Toy Show, Tubbardy wasn't allowed touch anything that someone else touched nor could he hand anything to anyone.

And the chances are much higher than winning the euromillions, it only tkes one priest to have it on his hand and infect thew whole congregation, or a few coughs.

John Hutton · 28-11-2020 4:48pm

GarIT wrote: »

That could have been done all along then, what was the problem with closing the churches?

Especially as it involves contact with the same object that you thne put in your mouth I'd be wary of it. Look at the Toy Show, Tubbardy wasn't allowed touch anything that someone else touched nor could he hand anything to anyone.

And the chances are much higher than winning the euromillions, it only tkes one priest to have it on his hand and infect thew whole congregation, or a few coughs.

The problem is that those are just wafers... But you know this

Zebra3 · 28-11-2020 4:51pm

John Hutton wrote: »

The problem is that those are just wafers... But you know this

You looking for a bit of someone's corpse to munch on?

feargale · 28-11-2020 5:02pm

Rrrrrr2 seems to have left us, so unfortunately it doesn't look as if I will get an answer to the question I put to him as follows:

Do you see this as an issue of religious freedom?

Would anyone else like to take it up?

feargale · 28-11-2020 7:00pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

You looking for a bit of someone's corpse to munch on?

That kind of stuff doesn't add anything constructive to this discussion. We get it. You don't believe in it. That's ok. Church attendance is not compulsory. You happy now?

Zebra3 · 28-11-2020 7:03pm

feargale wrote: »

That kind of stuff doesn't add anything constructive to this discussion. We get it. You don't believe in it. That's ok. Church attendance is not compulsory. You happy now?

It's a genuine question.

But then again there's a lot about Christianity that Christians don't like discussing.

feargale · 28-11-2020 7:19pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

It's a genuine question.

But then again there's a lot about Christianity that Christians don't like discussing.

I'm sure all here are touched by your genuinness but is it relevant to whether churches should open? If you want an argument about what one should believe or not you are free to open a thread, or you may find that the other A&A missionaries already have one running. They usually have.
I can't speak for Christians, but contrary to what you imply I would think the reason they don't like discussing the respective merits of religion v non- belief is because they are bored up to the eyeballs at the same stale old stuff in boards, mostly from people just out of short pants or out of boarding school who have been damaged by negative experiences and would blame the pope if a tsunami hit the west coast.

P.S. I am not religious and if you read my previous posts you will see that I think it wrong to open churches now. Unlike you that is not because I'm non-religious but for safety reasons.

Bubbaclaus · 28-11-2020 7:32pm

John Hutton wrote: »

For a "devout catholic" you have a way of twisting things... To try and use Jesus words to imply that Mass is unimportant or unecessary is dishonest.

Anyway, worship is permitted again from Tuesday.

Not very Christian to be questioning the level of someone else's faith.

Or maybe it is, now that I think about it.

feargale · 28-11-2020 8:29pm

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Not very Christian to be questioning the level of someone else's faith.

Or maybe it is, now that I think about it.

Not very anything good to turn the question of whether Christians should be allowed to worship publicly into the Inquisition in reverse rather than a consideration of the safety issues. It speaks volumes about some people's priorities. But those who have observed some of the schoolboy contributions in boards.ie won't be surprised.

Mrs OBumble · 28-11-2020 10:07pm

GarIT wrote: »

Especially as it involves contact with the same object that you thne put in your mouth I'd be wary of it. Look at the Toy Show, Tubbardy wasn't allowed touch anything that someone else touched nor could he hand anything to anyone.

And the chances are much higher than winning the euromillions, it only tkes one priest to have it on his hand and infect thew whole congregation, or a few coughs.

You clearly haven't got a clue about the procedures churches are following.

The priest has a facemask, and a shield. He sanitises his hands specifically before distributing communion. If he should accidentally touch a person's hand while he's distributing, he's required to stop and re-sanitise his hands again.

Do you also support cafes / restaurants being required to be closed? Because in one day's work, a kitchen hand or barista will come into contact with more stuff that goes into people's mouths than a priest saying even three/four masses will.

Most church buildings are huge and drafty, so people are incredibly well spread and ventilated. People book seats by phone/email in advance (contact tracing data is collected without even having to use a pen). There's no congregational singing. They're all masked.

Zebra3 · 29-11-2020 9:46pm

feargale wrote: »

I'm sure all here are touched by your genuinness but is it relevant to whether churches should open? If you want an argument about what one should believe or not you are free to open a thread, or you may find that the other A&A missionaries already have one running. They usually have.
I can't speak for Christians, but contrary to what you imply I would think the reason they don't like discussing the respective merits of religion v non- belief is because they are bored up to the eyeballs at the same stale old stuff in boards, mostly from people just out of short pants or out of boarding school who have been damaged by negative experiences and would blame the pope if a tsunami hit the west coast.

P.S. I am not religious and if you read my previous posts you will see that I think it wrong to open churches now. Unlike you that is not because I'm non-religious but for safety reasons.

John Hutton was dismissing what was on sale on Amazon.

I'm curious to know what the difference is between what he's in to.

And the reason Christians don't like discussing things is because they don't like being called out on their support for a genocidal maniac who supports rape and incest as well as the gender discrimination that still exists in their organisation.

John Hutton · 29-11-2020 10:34pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

John Hutton was dismissing what was on sale on Amazon.

I'm curious to know what the difference is between what he's in to.

And the reason Christians don't like discussing things is because they don't like being called out on their support for a genocidal maniac who supports rape and incest as well as the gender discrimination that still exists in their organisation.

Why would I want to spend my Sunday night engaging with this level of contribution?

John Hutton · 29-11-2020 10:41pm

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Not very Christian to be questioning the level of someone else's faith.

Or maybe it is, now that I think about it.

Unlike the poster in question, I've never claimed on here to be a particularly good, or devout Christian/Catholic. I'm not.

Nor have I claimed such to lend credence and authority to an opinion that is in clear contradiction to the faith to which I claim to be a devout follower of.

lawrencesummers · 29-11-2020 10:46pm

The irony of somebody getting Covid while attending mass and praying to god that the sick are helped would be somewhat comical.

foxyladyxx · 29-11-2020 11:57pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Th e fact that you can write this in apparent ignorance of the fact we are in a pandemic with a highly infectious virus shows how totally necessary it is to lose gatherings down.

constitutional laws have to bow to emergency situations. period. Why else are the rules we are bade follow being issued? The Churches have no exemption nor should they even consider seeking any.

Jesus was asked about obeying the laws; He bade folk; obey the laws.

And love others enough not to endanger them, please.

And as for worship? You do not need to be in a large building among others to worship! You really don't. Just go outside a while!

Jesus says that too... When you pray go into your room and pray in private .. not in public

OK I am off. Advent starts tomorrow and it is a Retreat time here as much as is possible. Praying deeply in solitude here. Try it? See you at Christmas. The Feast of the Nativity.

I WAS very critically ill in July of this year and only managed to get to mass for three days before the lockdown was imposed in September. I have the faith to believe that My God will protect me from this virus though I think I may have had it in February.

Once I had recovered following major surgery I continued to help out in a homeless shelter in town sans mask or protective clothing. Just myself and my faith in my God.

Incidently I received Holy Eucharist and had my confession heard by the shelter's chaplain. One of the happiest days of my life!!

No doubt I will be slated for my post but I do care not.

Different strokes different folks.

foxyladyxx · 30-11-2020 12:00am

feargale wrote: »

Rrrrrr2 seems to have left us, so unfortunately it doesn't look as if I will get an answer to the question I put to him as follows:

Do you see this as an issue of religious freedom?

Would anyone else like to take it up?

The lockdown is in breach of the Constitution.

So I guess the answer to that is ''yes''.

CinemaGuy45 · 30-11-2020 12:01am

foxyladyxx wrote: »

I WAS very critically ill in July of this year and only managed to get to mass for three days before the lockdown was imposed in September. I have the faith to believe that My God will protect me from this virus though I think I may have had it in February.

Once I had recovered following major surgery I continued to help out in a homeless shelter in town sans mask or protective clothing. Just myself and my faith in my God.

Incidently I received Holy Eucharist and had my confession heard by the shelter's chaplain. One of the happiest days of my life!!

No doubt I will be slated for my post but I do care not.

Different strokes different folks.

Believing in God and helping the homeless people like you will not be tolerated here.:eek:

feargale · 30-11-2020 1:55am

foxyladyxx wrote: »

I WAS very critically ill in July of this year and only managed to get to mass for three days before the lockdown was imposed in September. I have the faith to believe that My God will protect me from this virus though I think I may have had it in February.

Once I had recovered following major surgery I continued to help out in a homeless shelter in town sans mask or protective clothing. Just myself and my faith in my God

(1)Firstly I hope you are now fully recovered after your surgery. It's very selfless of you to help out in a shelter, but can I ask why you didn't wear a mask? I know that earlier in the year the powers were not recommending masks. Is that the reason why or was there another reason?

foxyladyxx wrote: »

The lockdown is in breach of the Constitution.

So I guess the answer to that is ''yes''.

(2)The following is from the Irish Times of 31st January last:

"A teenage girl who urgently requires surgery can, if necessary, be administered blood or blood products against the wishes of herself and her parents, all members of the Jehovah’s Witness faith, the president of the High Court has ordered.

Mr Justice Peter Kelly said he was satisfied, notwithstanding the views of the girl and her parents, the orders are necessary for preserving the girl’s life and not to permit them would be 'hazardous'."

Would you say the court in that case infinged against freedom of religion?

And finally,

(3)When Ireland had a foot and mouth crisis in 2001 Archbishop Brady cancelled the mass in parts of his archdiocese. To the best of my recollection he did so without prompting or pressure from any government. There was no outcry. Are cattle more important than people?

I would like to engage here with religious people who are strongly arguing for opening of churches. Unfortunately it seems almost impossible to do that in boards without cheapshot trolling by juvenile gob****es whose repertoire is confined to a single subject. But let's try.

John Hutton · 30-11-2020 12:39pm

feargale wrote: »

(2)The following is from the Irish Times of 31st January last:

"A teenage girl who urgently requires surgery can, if necessary, be administered blood or blood products against the wishes of herself and her parents, all members of the Jehovah’s Witness faith, the president of the High Court has ordered.

Mr Justice Peter Kelly said he was satisfied, notwithstanding the views of the girl and her parents, the orders are necessary for preserving the girl’s life and not to permit them would be 'hazardous'."

Would you say the court in that case infinged against freedom of religion?

Do you believe that people should be permitted to refuse medical treatment that they have ethical and moral objections to? I think so. Should such objections only be permitted when it doesn't really matter, i.e. non life threatening situations? I think this would be unfair. Should such refusal only be allowed when you agree with or share the patients moral and ethical objections? I don't think that's fair either.

Should parents be allowed to make these decisions on behalf of their children? That is the real question in the scenario you pose and my answer would be "it depends on the scenario".

But your scenario is not really comparable to a ban on practicing ones religion.

(3)When Ireland had a foot and mouth crisis in 2001 Archbishop Brady cancelled the mass in parts of his archdiocese. To the best of my recollection he did so without prompting or pressure from any government. There was no outcry. Are cattle more important than people?

How long did he cancel Mass for? Was it an open ended ban for months on end? Would his priests have been fined or jailed for having Mass? You can say that it would be unwise to go ahead with Mass without also thinking that it should be banned. The root of the objection for nearly all Catholics I know was that Mass was banned from level three, at a stage where people can still get hair cuts etc. Another issue with this is that the governments plan was and is that we would bounce between level three and level five with intermittent lockdowns, meaning that Mass would effectively be banned for an indeterminate period of time until the Covid crisis was over, presumably when the majority of the population are vaccinated. So maybe a year or more in total of Mass being banned. This is not proportionate.

I personally would have less of an objection if the government said that Mass will be stopped at the lockdown level only for a specified period of time only.

It seems now that level 3 has been modified to allow for Mass, so the government have changed their mind on this point which is welcome, and if it is the case, as it seems, that Mass will only be banned at the lockdown level, which would be a short period of time, I think that is a great improvement.

However, I think that the ban is unconstitutional and we would be better served by the government speaking with the Bishops and reaching an agreement where the Bishops would order that Mass not be celebrated in public for the duration of any lockdown. No ban would be necessary.

I would like to engage here with religious people who are strongly arguing for opening of churches. Unfortunately it seems almost impossible to do that in boards without cheapshop trolling by juvenile gob****es whose repertoire is confined to a single subject. But let's try.

Personally I think that a considerable proportion of the objection to Mass being allowed is based on anti-Catholic and anti religious prejudice. People who think it is perfectly safe, fine and unobjectionable to go get your hair done, stand in a big queue outside a shop for click and collect or to be handed a cake and a coffee in a coffee shop, but that it is somehow extremely hazardous to go to a well ventilated, massive, stewarded building, with everyone socially distancing and wearing masks for 30 minutes where you, in your seat, get handed communion from a Priest decked out in PPE in an interaction taking less than 5 seconds.

Not everyone is prejudiced of course, but as you have observed, a proportion of the commentary around it is.

foxyladyxx · 30-11-2020 3:26pm

feargale wrote: »

(1)Firstly I hope you are now fully recovered after your surgery. It's very selfless of you to help out in a shelter, but can I ask why you didn't wear a mask? I know that earlier in the year the powers were not recommending masks. Is that the reason why or was there another reason?

(2)The following is from the Irish Times of 31st January last:

"A teenage girl who urgently requires surgery can, if necessary, be administered blood or blood products against the wishes of herself and her parents, all members of the Jehovah’s Witness faith, the president of the High
Court has ordered.

Mr Justice Peter Kelly said he was satisfied, notwithstanding the views of the girl and her parents, the orders are necessary for preserving the girl’s life and not to permit them would be 'hazardous'."

Would you say the court in that case infinged against freedom of religion?

And finally,

(3)When Ireland had a foot and mouth crisis in 2001 Archbishop Brady cancelled the mass in parts of his archdiocese. To the best of my recollection he did so without prompting or pressure from any government. There was no outcry. Are cattle more important than people?

I would like to engage here with religious people who are strongly arguing for opening of churches. Unfortunately it seems almost impossible to do that in boards without cheapshot trolling by juvenile gob****es whose repertoire is confined to a single subject. But let's try.

Thank you for your response feargale. As regards (1) above I find masks very uncomfortable to wear but I also stand on the word of God. Mark 11:23

(2) the judge had to intervene to save the girl's life. It is an ethical dilemna for the legal profession. I assume that in a matter of life and death the judge will invariably over rule the parents.

(3). I have no idea why the Archbishop banned mass. Perhaps the livelihood of farmers was at stake? Or perhaps the Archbishop lacked faith himself in Jesus Christ and the power of His precious blood in protecting his flock from the illness?

All very strange I am sure to an unbeliever.

ETA I do know of many priests who celebrated the Holy Mass in public to their parishioners during the latest restrictions. Exposition of the Holy Eucharist ids exposed 24/7 in a monastery close to me.

Beasty · 30-11-2020 8:57pm

My question for those who believe is do they think their beliefs are more important than the views of others. Do they believe they should act for the greater good of everyone, or perhaps ignore certain restrictions (or indeed be given leeway not offered to to others in similar situations) because of their beliefs?

Jim_Hodge · 30-11-2020 10:05pm

Beasty wrote: »

My question for those who believe is do they think their beliefs are more important than the views of others. Do they believe they should act for the greater good of everyone, or perhaps ignore certain restrictions (or indeed be given leeway not offered to to others in similar situations) because of their beliefs?

I'll answer for myself. I'm a devout Catholic and involved locally in our church's efforts to facilitate masses - keeping numbers to the allowed level, stewarding, ensuring distancing, face covering, hand sanitising etc.

In no way do any of our beliefs or desires to celebrate mass come before the greater good and we accept when it's felt the church should close to public worship. I'd have no issues with restrictions being the same for church as any other indoor gathering.

talulon · 01-12-2020 11:15am

I don't go to church so my comment might strike as un-educated but, isn't this ritual the one where everyone goes and takes the communion from the same priest, same hand? So even if there's a limited amount of people in the building, most probably all of them will be using the priest as a virus hub?

If God is everywhere, what's the problem of not going to his "house" for a few weeks?

It might not seem like the same example to some people here but I love football, and I even love more going to the stadium, but if I can make everyone safer by watching it from TV I think we are all on the same page. I'm sure you all have a bible at home.

John Hutton · 01-12-2020 11:54am

talulon wrote: »

I don't go to church so my comment might strike as un-educated but, isn't this ritual the one where everyone goes and takes the communion from the same priest, same hand? So even if there's a limited amount of people in the building, most probably all of them will be using the priest as a virus hub?

If God is everywhere, what's the problem of not going to his "house" for a few weeks?

It might not seem like the same example to some people here but I love football, and I even love more going to the stadium, but if I can make everyone safer by watching it from TV I think we are all on the same page. I'm sure you all have a bible at home.

The priest sanitizes and puts on PPE and hands out the Communion, and re sanitizes if needs be. Less dangerous than being handed your change, your lotto ticket, box of cigarettes, coffee or whatever in a shop.

Again, for the umpteenth time, the ban on Mass was not just for a few weeks, it was indefinite as the government said we wont be going to a level lower than level 3. So before the government backed down and amended level 3 it was looking like Mass would be banned until vaccine is distributed, which will be the summer at the earliest. So not just a "few weeks".

Again, watching Mass on the TV is not the same and not only because you can't receive the Eucharist, although this is a big reason. Assisting at the Sacrifice of the Mass is the central and most important expression of faith and worship of God. Christians are also called to gather and worship as a community (even if it is socially distanced

). So reading your bible at home alone, or watching Mass on TV instead of attending Mass, while a good thing, is not the same, certainly not for an indefinite extended period of months on end.

That said, the Sunday obligation has been lifted (and does not apply to sick people who can't go anyway) for everyone so its allowed for any vulnerable or wary people to stay at home.

Football, theater etc, is not the same as practicing your religion. No matter how much you enjoy sport you don't think it is a necessity which has wider implications for your soul and eternity. You might think its nonsense, but that doesn't change the fact that billions of people think this way - which was recognized by governments all over the world who only introduced a ban on Mass at the highest level of restrictions, if they banned it at all.

Anyway, the government have listened to the people for once and allowed Mass now at Level 3 from today

Irish Archbishops call for Catholics to be allowed to attend Mass

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