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To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

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Comments

  • #1862
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,756 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    As for the doctors in Oklahoma, they allege that:
    forcing Tulsans to wear masks has been proven to “cause irreparable physiological damage” after only 15 seconds of wearing a face covering.


    I'm calling that garbage until they produce some real studies.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #1863
    Fodla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 281 ✭✭Fodla


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Money money money. That's why. People will lie, cheat and steal for it. They'll even put lies. embellishments, fabrications etc into books and try to flog it.

    Find me a proper study that shows, as Coleman claims, for example, that "They also reduce oxygen levels and expose wearers to increased levels of carbon dioxide."

    Here is the counter:
    https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/blog/masks-oxygen-levels

    But the book is free. He's not looking for money. He doesn't look for money at the end of his videos about COVID-19 either.

    His new book is packed with references to studies on masks: https://www.vernoncoleman.com/bannedmaskbook.pdf


  • #1864
    Tork
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭Tork


    There is money to be made from this. Be it monetising the videos, people paying him to front the campaign, drumming up publicity for himself...


  • #1865
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Away With The Fairies wrote: »
    You can get breathing difficulties with covid and have a machine breathe for you. But you would rather that than a mask?

    You’ve about as much chance of winning the lotto as needing a ventilator in Ireland if you are under 70 and don’t already have a life threatening disease.


  • #1866
    Fodla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 281 ✭✭Fodla


    Tork wrote: »
    There is money to be made from this. Be it monetising the videos, people paying him to front the campaign, drumming up publicity for himself...

    But he doesn't monetise his videos.

    Would you be open to reading his book on masks?


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  • #1867
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,756 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Fodla wrote: »
    But the book is free. He's not looking for money. He doesn't look for money at the end of his videos about COVID-19 either.
    His new book is packed with references to studies on masks: https://www.vernoncoleman.com/bannedmaskbook.pdf

    Studies which are either garbage or dont show what he says they show or have nothing to do with the current context for their use.

    He says masks reduce oxygen levels. A false claim debunked repeatedly.
    Thats an example of his garbage.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #1868
    Fodla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 281 ✭✭Fodla


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Studies which are either garbage or dont show what he says they show or have nothing to do with the current context for their use.

    He says masks reduce oxygen levels. A false claim debunked repeatedly.
    Thats an example of his garbage.

    Why not read his book and see what he has to say? He quotes from studies that appeared in major medical journals.


  • #1869
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Studies which are either garbage or dont show what he says they show or have nothing to do with the current context for their use.

    He says masks reduce oxygen levels. A false claim debunked repeatedly.
    Thats an example of his garbage.

    Yes the thousands of studies and peer reviewed papers from over one hundred years of study which all state that masks are useless against airborne respiratory viruses are all debunked suddenly, and overruled by “feelings”.

    Incredibly 2020, no wonder the world is fcuked.


  • #1870
    Fodla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 281 ✭✭Fodla


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Yes the thousands of studies and peer reviewed papers from over one hundred years of study which all state that masks are useless against airborne respiratory viruses are all debunked suddenly, and overruled by “feelings”.

    Incredibly 2020, no wonder the world is fcuked.

    Incredible, isn't it?


  • #1871
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,756 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Fodla wrote: »
    Why not read his book and see what he has to say? He quotes from studies that appeared in major medical journals.

    Are you even paying attention to where his nonsense about oxygen levels is thoroughly debunked?

    His claims are without merit or foundation. I don't have to read a book to know what kind of a charlatan we are dealing with, when his main claims are so obviously shown up to be fradulent nonsense.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • #1872
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,756 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Yes the thousands of studies and peer reviewed papers from over one hundred years of study which all state that masks are useless against airborne respiratory viruses are all debunked suddenly, and overruled by “feelings”. Incredibly 2020, no wonder the world is fcuked.

    Your post is incredible in the sense of not believable.
    They all state unequivocally that masks as barriers on an infected person are useless?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #1873
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Your post is incredible in the sense of not believable.
    They all state unequivocally that masks as barriers on an infected person are useless?

    Yes. Masks are 100% useless in stopping the spread of airborne respiratory virus’. That is 100% medical fact, backed up with hundreds of years of research and peer reviewed papers.

    If you’d have stated in 2019 that mask should be work to stop the spread of flu etc you’d have been laughed at. However, “feelings” such as “it must stop some droplets”, and “here’s a cartoon showing how much it stops the spread” have taken over from peer review and actual evidence. It’s be laughable if it wasn’t so pathetic.


  • #1874
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,756 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Yes. Masks are 100% useless in stopping the spread of airborne respiratory virus’. That is 100% medical fact, backed up with hundreds of years of research and peer reviewed papers.

    If you’d have stated in 2019 that mask should be work to stop the spread of flu etc you’d have been laughed at. However, “feelings” such as “it must stop some droplets”, and “here’s a cartoon showing how much it stops the spread” have taken over from peer review and actual evidence. It’s be laughable if it wasn’t so pathetic.

    It's laughable you have doubled down on your claim, it is now 100% medical fact proven from hundreds of studies over hundreds of years. Sure why not go back thousands of years from thousands of studies?

    Feelings don't come into it. Your claims are utter nonsense and have been thoroughly rejected by all the major health authorities such as the CDC, ECDC, WHO. Medical grade masks are worn as PPE by medical staff and carers to protect them from infection, and surgical masks and face coverings are worn as barriers by ordinary people to contain their potentially infectious droplets. Please direct me to the study which 100% proves that such a strategy is 100% ineffective. They should be easy to find based on your above claims.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #1875
    railer201
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭railer201


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Yes. Masks are 100% useless in stopping the spread of airborne respiratory virus’. That is 100% medical fact, backed up with hundreds of years of research and peer reviewed papers.

    If you’d have stated in 2019 that mask should be work to stop the spread of flu etc you’d have been laughed at. However, “feelings” such as “it must stop some droplets”, and “here’s a cartoon showing how much it stops the spread” have taken over from peer review and actual evidence. It’s be laughable if it wasn’t so pathetic.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SK3y1a8TYs


  • #1876
    Sconsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Yes. Masks are 100% useless in stopping the spread of airborne respiratory virus’. That is 100% medical fact, backed up with hundreds of years of research and peer reviewed papers.

    If you’d have stated in 2019 that mask should be work to stop the spread of flu etc you’d have been laughed at. However, “feelings” such as “it must stop some droplets”, and “here’s a cartoon showing how much it stops the spread” have taken over from peer review and actual evidence. It’s be laughable if it wasn’t so pathetic.

    More lies, you have a track record. Where does this need to lie come from I wonder?


  • #1877
    Fodla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 281 ✭✭Fodla


    The countries with the strictest mask laws have the highest case numbers. That suggests that they're useless.

    Okay, there is the argument of people not wearing them at home, but that alone cannot account for the huge case numbers. Wearing masks everywhere, if they were any good, would surely make mean relatively low numbers. But rather than low numbers, the numbers are through he roof.


  • #1878
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,756 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Fodla wrote: »
    The countries with the strictest mask laws have the highest case numbers. That suggests that they're useless.

    The Czech Republic in wave 1 had the strictest mask laws and also much lower cases than countries without them.

    So you will have to provide a source on your claim.
    And can you provide a regional breakdown for federal countries where mask mandates are under regional control.
    And also account for the differences in number of tests carried out per capita per authority and their infection rate %. A country with a small number of tests, but high infection rate, it can be reasonably inferred that their real case count is a multiple of the detected figure.
    Okay, there is the argument of people not wearing them at home, but that alone cannot account for the huge case numbers. Wearing masks everywhere, if they were any good, would surely make mean relatively low numbers. But rather than low numbers, the numbers are through he roof.

    Except you have just said people aren't wearing masks everywhere, so you have mooted your own point.
    Masks have an important role to play in reducing the risk to people, especially the vulnerable, as they go about their business in public spaces.
    We should also consider the theory that masks and distancing mean less viral load which means less severe cases.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #1879
    saneman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 215 ✭✭saneman


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Yes. Masks are 100% useless in stopping the spread of airborne respiratory virus’. That is 100% medical fact, backed up with hundreds of years of research and peer reviewed papers.

    If you’d have stated in 2019 that mask should be work to stop the spread of flu etc you’d have been laughed at. However, “feelings” such as “it must stop some droplets”, and “here’s a cartoon showing how much it stops the spread” have taken over from peer review and actual evidence. It’s be laughable if it wasn’t so pathetic.

    You're back with your unadulterated horseshíte. First (and this has been linked here a number of times) here is the WHO document from 2019 on "health measures for mitigating the risk and impact of epidemic and pandemic influenza": https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/329438/9789241516839-eng.pdf

    It uses the term "mechanistic plausibility" for the use of masks by the public because of the fact that there wasn't "hundreds of years of research and peer reviewed papers" on the subject, specifically in the public sphere (a non-trivia task in itself given all the variables). This was inferred by those experts based on the benefits shown from clinical studies in laboratory environments and was in relation to protecting the wearer. Further evidence has since emerged on the protective benefits to others should the wearer be the one infected.


  • #1880
    martingriff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,414 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Tork wrote: »
    When this virus goes away people will stop wearing masks. All this sub-The Handmaid's Tale talk is nonsense. How else do you try and avoid spreading a virus that is airborne?

    I think you are correct except maybe in 1 exception and that is air travel some may still wear them


  • #1881
    martingriff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,414 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Fodla wrote: »
    The evidence is the past eight months of heavy restrictions on every aspect of our lives. Not a single restriction has been got rid of. There's also the fact that no country in the world, apart from the Cayman Islands, if I'm not mistaken, has got rid of masks completely. And I am unaware of any country that has said when they will be got rid of. The only health minister who has said they'll soon be a thing of the past is the Turkish Health Minister.

    There is a perfectly good reason restrictions have not eased. Come on have a guess? Could it be that Covid 19 is still here by any chance?


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  • #1882
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    martingriff wrote: »
    I think you are correct except maybe in 1 exception and that is air travel some may still wear them

    At least for a couple of years after massed vaccinations people won't look and stare at someone from Asia wearing a mask on a plane or wandering around the street wearing one in Europe. I'm hoping I can get away with a bit of time not looking odd wearing one during pollen season as this year was one of the lease sneezy I've ever had.


  • #1883
    Tork
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭Tork


    I don't like wearing masks but the plane thing is food for thought. I have caught several colds shortly after catching flights and I know other people who have said the same thing. I'd rather pop on a mask for a shortish flight and deal with the discomfort of that, rather than the misery of a cold. I don't see airport security wanting mask wearing to continue indefinitely. They have all sorts of sophisticated cameras in there and they won't be as helpful if everyone is going around masked up.


  • #1884
    Irish Stones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,308 ✭✭✭Irish Stones


    Tork wrote: »
    I don't like wearing masks but the plane thing is food for thought. I have caught several colds shortly after catching flights

    Couldn't it be because of the filthy recirculated air, or the cold flow of air from the vents above head?
    Just asking.
    I don't see airport security wanting mask wearing to continue indefinitely. They have all sorts of sophisticated cameras in there and they won't be as helpful if everyone is going around masked up.
    Not only airport security, but every place where cameras have been installed for a good reason.
    In my country, Italy, a few robberies have been committed in the last months with the help of the face masks, that would normally be forbidden in public spaces, and would have alerted staff in post offices, supermarkets, etc, now they are required.

    Then there are the smartphones, like mine, that are so dumb not to unlock when I look at it.

    In the next future, whoever is wearing a mask won't be asked to remove it, because the situation we're living will be a good reason to have it.


  • #1885
    Tork
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭Tork


    My understanding is that you catch colds from viruses, not from draughts.


  • #1886
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,756 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Tork wrote: »
    My understanding is that you catch colds from viruses, not from draughts.

    I can't place where but I think I read something to the effect that dry sinuses leave you more open to a virus that is circulating getting through your natural defenses and infecting you. If you're somewhere with strong AC hitting you that's a possibility.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #1887
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Irish Stones wrote: »
    Couldn't it be because of the filthy recirculated air, or the cold flow of air from the vents above head?
    Just asking.


    Not only airport security, but every place where cameras have been installed for a good reason.
    In my country, Italy, a few robberies have been committed in the last months with the help of the face masks, that would normally be forbidden in public spaces, and would have alerted staff in post offices, supermarkets, etc, now they are required.

    Then there are the smartphones, like mine, that are so dumb not to unlock when I look at it.

    In the next future, whoever is wearing a mask won't be asked to remove it, because the situation we're living will be a good reason to have it.

    It's not too complicated for security to figure out ways around needing to see peoples faces for banking or airports. Install a box with a screen on the front, person walks in, removes their mask, shows their ID or gets their photo taken depending on the situation, put mask back on, leave box.

    Just so far it's not been worth going to the expense of setting this kind of thing up because it will start to be sorted out at some point in the future and we'll not need to be wearing masks to the same extent and we can then get back to doing things mostly how we were a year ago.


  • #1888
    Tork
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭Tork


    Maybe so but the virus would have to be around anyway I assume? Catching a cold from a draught or getting wet is an old wives tale.


  • #1889
    VG31
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,585 ✭✭✭VG31


    Irish Stones wrote: »
    Couldn't it be because of the filthy recirculated air, or the cold flow of air from the vents above head?
    Just asking.

    Planes do not have "filthy recirculated air". This myth has been debunked many times.


  • #1890
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,756 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Tork wrote: »
    Maybe so but the virus would have to be around anyway I assume? Catching a cold from a draught or getting wet is an old wives tale.

    The theories I have read is that it leaves you more vulnerable to catching it, or if you already have it, but leaves you less able to keep it in check. So it may cause it to manifest \ for you to come down with something that otherwise you would shake off.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • #1891
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,756 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Face masks now advised (but not mandated) for busy streets, indoor workplaces and places of worship.

    The Taoiseach said it has further been agreed that the use of facemasks is now recommended in crowded workplaces, places of worship and in busy or crowded outdoor spaces where there is significant congregation.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/taoiseach-new-restrictions-for-christmas-5280916-Nov2020/

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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