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If the world goes completely vegan

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    #212
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Say my name wrote: »
    But your producing meat from a sustainable plant that feeds microbes in the soil and sequesters carbon.

    - Methane
    - Rainforest devastation to plant soy to feed to Irish cattle


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    #213
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    Wrong.



    This falsehood has been proffered 10 times so far on this thread with zero evidence, and in fact loads of evidence to the contrary suggesting that no, it isn't just convenient, left over soy fed to animals.

    "Twenty-six percent of the Planet’s ice-free land is used for livestock grazing
    and 33 percent of croplands are used for livestock feed production. "

    http://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf

    Hey morning the agri farm link above those say that the majority of feed imported to ireland is a byproduct.


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    #214
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    EastTyrone wrote: »
    And the fact that a large majority of vegetables eaten in the eu come from spain with its miles upon miles of plastic greenhouses destroying the local environment, taking up ground water and depleting natural groundwater sources?

    Gas - are vegans the only people who like to nibble on a tomato? Do non-vegans restrict themselves to eating only chard and brussels sprouts in the winter? Vegans make up a tiny % of the population, do you think they are the ones eating the tonnes of Spanish peppers in the supermarket?

    This post is completely irrelevant to any discussion on the merits or otherwise of the veganism - complete troll post.


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    #215
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Gary kk wrote: »
    Hey morning the agri farm link above those say that the majority of feed imported to ireland is a byproduct.

    It says "mainly" (no %), and then follows that up with of course, this figure does "not account for straight products like barley or maize".

    Not convinced.


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    #216
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    It says "mainly" (no %), and then follows that up with of course, this figure does "not account for straight products like barley or maize".

    Not convinced.

    Look I am sure there are some companies that wont allow soy grown for a Vegan market be used as animal feed after but the majority just want the money which I guess is fair enough.

    You don't have to be convinced but the facts are there if you want to find them.


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    #217
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Incidentaly ,I doubt many farmers in Ireland would agree with destruction of rain forest to produce soya ( or more likely beef in brazil,) or palm oil in indonesia ,
    Some will purchase accordingly ,some won't think that far ..
    An awful lot of the straight grains in the world used for animal feed tend to be for pigs and poultry , ( which we do produce here too ,) rather than sheep and cattle ( which are our big export ) ,
    And I'm intrigued to know what animal feed we import from fiji ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #218
    Bigbooty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭Bigbooty


    Markcheese wrote: »
    And I'm intrigued to know what animal feed we import from fiji ..

    Meal from coconut husks most likely.


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    #219
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    I have nothing against farmers doing their thing to make money. I just think our planet is sick and the food system for us is ridiculously unsustainable. I'm sure we could all still have some meat, sometimes, but we can't keep destroying habitats to produce food, we could produce enough food for all of us using less land and give more back to nature, if we all just ate less meat.
    I agree with your first point
    That’s a fairly simplistic and hugely flawed analogy, . To fix food productions impact on the planet the first thing to look at is any link to oil gas coal.
    Then food waste.
    But economics dominate all logic.


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    #220
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    I'm noticing some quite respectful debate taking place on this thread recently (some, not all!) and I think it's great. Just wanted to feed that back, as I'm sure it seems like we only complain about bad behaviour. Trying to find some common ground, acknowledging the bits you agree with, trying to see the perspective of others - that's great to see. I can see the effort that some of you are putting in, and I wanted to acknowledge it.


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    #221
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Jjameson wrote: »
    I agree with your first point
    That’s a fairly simplistic and hugely flawed analogy, . To fix food productions impact on the planet the first thing to look at is any link to oil gas coal.
    Then food waste.
    But economics dominate all logic.

    This thread seems to be mainly farmers asking "vegans" why they haven't solved all the myriad problems of agri-business.

    I'm intrigued to know what role importing cattle, finishing them on grass (and some degree of feed imported from Fiji or Vietnam, probably), killing them, and then exporting the carcasses to far-flung places, has to play in decoupling our food production from its reliance on fossil fuels.


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    #222
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,754 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Faith wrote: »
    I'm noticing some quite respectful debate taking place on this thread recently (some, not all!) and I think it's great. Just wanted to feed that back, as I'm sure it seems like we only complain about bad behaviour. Trying to find some common ground, acknowledging the bits you agree with, trying to see the perspective of others - that's great to see. I can see the effort that some of you are putting in, and I wanted to acknowledge it.

    I only think this has been possible because a certain poster has been banned, otherwise forget about it


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    #223
    Tilikum17
    Registered Users Posts: 1,316 ✭✭✭Tilikum17


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    I only think this has been possible because a certain poster has been banned, otherwise forget about it

    100%. Most of the farmers are grand on here


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    #224
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    This thread seems to be mainly farmers asking "vegans" why they haven't solved all the myriad problems of agri-business.

    I'm intrigued to know what role importing cattle, finishing them on grass (and some degree of feed imported from Fiji or Vietnam, probably), killing them, and then exporting the carcasses to far-flung places, has to play in decoupling our food production from its reliance on fossil fuels.

    The environmentally impact of chemical nitrogen fertiliser, high input/ output pasture is environmentally damaging however there is a new body of growing research (albeit poorly funded) that’s showing extensive grass based systems are actually building co2 into the soil.
    We don’t import much cattle? and the majority of our beef should not be heading for far flung markets. The uk is our largest and logically so.
    The scrutiny of grass based food production can improve if we get serious about the environment and intensive modern pigs and poultry production should be the loser but not a chance.
    Economics. A 1.5kg chicken for 3quid vs mince @ 5quid.


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    #225
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    I only think this has been possible because a certain poster has been banned, otherwise forget about it
    Tilikum17 wrote: »
    100%. Most of the farmers are grand on here

    Whatever the reason may be, it would be great if it could continue in this vein. It shows there can be room for opposing viewpoints and debate if done respectfully and considerately.


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    #226
    Unearthly
    Registered Users Posts: 7,981 ✭✭✭Unearthly


    Tilikum17 wrote: »
    100%. Most of the farmers are grand on here

    Fully agree. Some good contributions here


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    #227
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Unearthly wrote: »
    Fully agree. Some good contributions here

    Do you not find these type of threads totally boring ?

    They are usually started with an eye on ‘winning’ an ‘argument’ further down the road. Like a ‘gotcha’ moment - ‘so what would you do with all the animals that are not going to be killed for food ?’ type question that I always hear with a big dumb guffaw.

    I can’t imagine the regular forum contributors like these hypothetical threads.

    There’s enough real stuff to be talking about without hypothetical questions that always seem to place some burden on Vegans solving unrealistic problems.


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    #228
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Do you not find these type of threads totally boring ?

    They are usually started with an eye on ‘winning’ an ‘argument’ further down the road. Like a ‘gotcha’ moment - ‘so what would you do with all the animals that are not going to be killed for food ?’ type question that I always hear with a big dumb guffaw.

    I can’t imagine the regular forum contributors like these hypothetical threads.

    There’s enough real stuff to be talking about without hypothetical questions that always seem to place some burden on Vegans solving unrealistic problems.

    Oh have a bit fun say we will be living on Mars with earth as zoo, so it matters not what people do.


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    #229
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Boring maybe to some , and it may even have been a "gotcha "item at the start ,
    I enjoy the debate .. helps understand where others are coming from , and I learn a lot , often just by checking facts on line..
    For eg. I was really surprised how much methane is produced in the cultivation of rice ...
    I was surprised how vague the methane cycle seems to be ..
    I was a bit surprised at how hard it is to nail down and define terms like by-product and how much is used , and I can easily accept that soya meal could be defined as a soya product rather than a soya oil by -product ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #230
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    There is room for a lot of types of discussion here and different people will like different things. I'm much more interested in this than say a thread about vitamins, or some people might be really into what others had for dinner and so on. People can post in the thread they like. As long as there is respect between the parties it can be really interesting. It is an actually common question people are confused by as often they may have heard it and not looked into veganism much at all before, and while yes some use it as a "gotcha" it shouldn't diminish the questions of others who are interested in knowing and it can open opportunities to learn about different things. And it is nice to hear from farmers on a range of different things from growing veg, to running sanctuaries to how would Ireland be able to move to more plant based farming in the future? Things like that in general as they have a lot of experience even if you don't agree on everything obviously!


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    #231
    Dizzyblonde
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,108 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dizzyblonde


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    I only think this has been possible because a certain poster has been banned, otherwise forget about it

    Mod note:
    Taking a shot at a poster who's been banned and can't reply, no matter what your own opinion is of them, is not on.


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    #232
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    There was a time in this country when vegatenarism was more than choice looked into, in my grandparents time and parents youth it was a diet circumstance for a significant of the population, farmers were lucky, bacon or a laid out fowl, milk butter milk and butter were to be had. Home grown spuds, cabbage, turnips parsnips and wheaten bread were the staple.. though this time of year the herring men were gladly welcomed for the change of cuisine!
    The older folk still smack their lips at the mention of them.

    The excess of qaulity ridiculously cheap food has diminished its “ethical” value. I’m not sure that’s the right word but the disregard for the environment and biodiversity , the farmers, the animals themselves is hard to comprehend.
    If consumers would pay a little extra for an Irish grown packet of sprouts and buy a bit of locally produced beef from a butcher(tho it’s nearly too late for them)
    it would be of more benefit than following extreme diet for all.


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    #233
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Jjameson wrote: »
    The excess of qaulity ridiculously cheap food has diminished its “ethical” value. I’m not sure that’s the right word but the disregard for the environment and biodiversity , the farmers, the animals themselves is hard to comprehend.
    If consumers would pay a little extra for an Irish grown packet of sprouts and buy a bit of locally produced beef from a butcher(tho it’s nearly too late for them)
    it would be of more benefit than following extreme diet for all.

    The only suggestions I see on this forum mooting the notion of everyone turning vegan seem to come from the meat-advocates, tbh.


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    #234
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,754 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    when you have things like oat milk and the meat substitutes coming out nowadays, it really doesn't feel like an extreme diet at all, especially if you try and watch your weight and avoid certain foods anyway.


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    #235
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    when you have things like oat milk and the meat substitutes coming out nowadays, it really doesn't feel like an extreme diet at all, especially if you try and watch your weight and avoid certain foods anyway.

    Oat drink would look to be the best of it but the food processing industry marketing is tripping over itself with zeal with a lot of the substitutes. Some woeful crap being sold at an extortionate profits.
    I appreciate you aren’t for turning on this and nor am I!


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    #236
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,754 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Jjameson wrote: »
    Oat drink would look to be the best of it but the food processing industry marketing is tripping over itself with zeal with a lot of the substitutes. Some woeful crap being sold at an extortionate profits.
    I appreciate you aren’t for turning on this and nor am I!

    I mean there's far more woeful crap being sold containing animal products out there though, that are hoovered up by the masses. Most of us love a good overly processed bit of food from time to time whether it be a Linda McCartney burger or a Shepherd's pie containing horse!
    I mean they sell chicken pieces in packets now beside the prepacked sandwiches in tesco to be eaten like crisps. It just seems so wrong that we have become so distanced from the animal.


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    #237
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    I mean there's far more woeful crap being sold containing animal products out there though, that are hoovered up by the masses. Most of us love a good overly processed bit of food from time to time whether it be a Linda McCartney burger or a Shepherd's pie containing horse!
    I mean they sell chicken pieces in packets now beside the prepacked sandwiches in tesco to be eaten like crisps. It just seems so wrong that we have become so distanced from the animal.
    Hey now you leave the horse meat out of this.

    But you are right there is something completely wrong with the food industry on all sides.

    Not so sure about distance from the animals.


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    #238
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    I mean there's far more woeful crap being sold containing animal products out there though, that are hoovered up by the masses. Most of us love a good overly processed bit of food from time to time whether it be a Linda McCartney burger or a Shepherd's pie containing horse!
    I mean they sell chicken pieces in packets now beside the prepacked sandwiches in tesco to be eaten like crisps. It just seems so wrong that we have become so distanced from the animal.

    Nothing to add here. And you said we couldn’t agree!


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    #239
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,261 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Do you not find these type of threads totally boring ?

    They are usually started with an eye on ‘winning’ an ‘argument’ further down the road. Like a ‘gotcha’ moment - ‘so what would you do with all the animals that are not going to be killed for food ?’ type question that I always hear with a big dumb guffaw.

    I can’t imagine the regular forum contributors like these hypothetical threads.

    There’s enough real stuff to be talking about without hypothetical questions that always seem to place some burden on Vegans solving unrealistic problems.

    I think it's encouraging that posters are debating with each other in a respectful way at this point, considering the thread started out quite fractious it could have easily descended into a screaming match and what good does that do?

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



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    #240
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Yeah I feel like it would be a good product for us, and it also retails higher than dairy milk around €2.50 per litre. Gluten free oat unit, that's very cool.
    It's also open to a lot of entrepreneurial opportunities I think, creating your own brands and so on.


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    #241
    purplesnack
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭purplesnack


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    Wrong.



    This falsehood has been proffered 10 times so far on this thread with zero evidence, and in fact loads of evidence to the contrary suggesting that no, it isn't just convenient, left over soy fed to animals.

    "Twenty-six percent of the Planet’s ice-free land is used for livestock grazing
    and 33 percent of croplands are used for livestock feed production. "

    http://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf

    Everything that I read seems to say that soy beans are grown for meal, which most of is used for animal feed. Even this United Nations report says that soy is grown for meal and that the oil is secondary (section 1.4).

    https://unctad.org/system/files/official-document/INFOCOMM_cp10_SoyaBeans_en.pdf

    At the end of the day, the fact of the matter is that the planet it currently trying to sustain 8 billion people and the tens of billions (yes, billions) animals that are slaughtered every year for human consumption. Would it not be more sustainable to sustain just the human population? There would be no need to increase the amount of land that's currently used for crops. There are currently mountains of food discarded because it doesn't conform to a standard - it is perfectly fine but maybe doesn't have quite the right shape. It's absolutely ridiculous. There should be no need for anyone to go hungry (a nod to the poster who seems to think that vegans only think about animals and not starving children). The whole system is fecked up.


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