If the world goes completely vegan

Thelonious Monk

EastTyrone wrote: »

What do vegans think of the fact that drinking soya milk is destroying the rainforest?
And the fact that a large majority of vegetables eaten in the eu come from spain with its miles upon miles of plastic greenhouses destroying the local environment, taking up ground water and depleting natural groundwater sources?

This honestly intrigues me so much as I always hear of people saying vegans to save the environment however this is never mentioned.

Likewise would vegans ever eat insects or how does this compare to a vegans ideals?

First of all most of the soy grown is to feed farmed animals.
I don't think trading food in the European Union is going away any time soon, but I think you'll find pretty much all of the the vegetables grown in Spain and Holland that are imported here are eaten by non vegans.
And the insect thing, if we all had a vegan diet, we'd have to use far less land for farming our food thus we'd have far more insects and animals out there. It's about having the least impact on the earth, but we all still need to eat.

It is true that insects are in a terrible decline across the planet. But the biggest drivers of this are the destruction of wild habitat, largely for meat production, and widespread pesticide use. If it is insects that you are really worried about, then eating a plant-based organic diet is the option to choose.

EastTyrone

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

First of all most of the soy grown is to feed farmed animals.
I don't think trading food in the European Union is going away any time soon, but I think you'll find pretty much all of the the vegetables grown in Spain and Holland that are imported here are eaten by non vegans.
And the insect thing, if we all had a vegan diet, we'd have to use far less land for farming our food thus we'd have far more insects and animals out there. It's about having the least impact on the earth, but we all still need to eat.

It is true that insects are in a terrible decline across the planet. But the biggest drivers of this are the destruction of wild habitat, largely for meat production, and widespread pesticide use. If it is insects that you are really worried about, then eating a plant-based organic diet is the option to choose.

Vegns still use this as a substitute for cows milk, which is why iI'm asking.
Like wise farmed insects have an incredible high level of protein in them and are being touted as the future in agriculture to use as a replacement for soy which will help to reduce our reliance on soy in animal feed, we can also eat insects which can be farmed in quite small areas and produce a large yield which is grown on food waste further to helping alleviate the demand for space.

Say my name

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Thanks for your response. I suppose the way I look at Ireland now and farming is that pretty much the whole island is used for farming and I'd like to see a lot of land given back to nature and just let do its own thing. Obviously that would mean less beef and dairy being produced, and that doesn't fly with a lot of people. Your way of farming sounds great, but I still don't think the whole island should consist of beef and dairy fams, and all of our higher grounds seem to be either grazing land for sheep which stops anything from growing, or sitka spruce plantations. It really doesn't seem like a healthy ecosystem to me currently, and the reports tell us it isn't.

And that sounds well but people need jobs, people need income.
It's a healthy ecosystem if it's done well.

Where I am more land is going to tillage. Ditches gone land tilled.
The tillage ground already there going to solar panels.

It's not all beef and dairy in this country.

White Clover

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Thanks for your response. I suppose the way I look at Ireland now and farming is that pretty much the whole island is used for farming and I'd like to see a lot of land given back to nature and just let do its own thing. Obviously that would mean less beef and dairy being produced, and that doesn't fly with a lot of people. Your way of farming sounds great, but I still don't think the whole island should consist of beef and dairy fams, and all of our higher grounds seem to be either grazing land for sheep which stops anything from growing, or sitka spruce plantations. It really doesn't seem like a healthy ecosystem to me currently, and the reports tell us it isn't.

The hills were destocked before, they had to put the sheep back up there again to maintain the natural eco system.

Thelonious Monk

EastTyrone wrote: »

Vegns still use this as a substitute for cows milk, which is why iI'm asking.
Like wise farmed insects have an incredible high level of protein in them and are being touted as the future in agriculture to use as a replacement for soy which will help to reduce our reliance on soy in animal feed, we can also eat insects which can be farmed in quite small areas and produce a large yield which is grown on food waste further to helping alleviate the demand for space.

They do use soy milk a substitute, more of an oat milk person myself, but if you look at the link below you'll see it has far less of an environmental impact than cows milk

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46654042

White Clover

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

First of all most of the soy grown is to feed farmed animals.
I don't think trading food in the European Union is going away any time soon, but I think you'll find pretty much all of the the vegetables grown in Spain and Holland that are imported here are eaten by non vegans.
And the insect thing, if we all had a vegan diet, we'd have to use far less land for farming our food thus we'd have far more insects and animals out there. It's about having the least impact on the earth, but we all still need to eat.

It is true that insects are in a terrible decline across the planet. But the biggest drivers of this are the destruction of wild habitat, largely for meat production, and widespread pesticide use. If it is insects that you are really worried about, then eating a plant-based organic diet is the option to choose.

Wrong again. The waste left over is fed to livestock once the oil has been extracted for humans.

Thelonious Monk

White Clover wrote: »

The hills were destocked before

What does that mean? There are initiatives in Scotland at the moment where they've fenced off areas from sheep, and native trees have flourished, which has led to an increase in wildlife.
Sheep love saplings so if you let them loose on hills nothing can grow there.

Thelonious Monk

White Clover wrote: »

Wrong again. The waste left over is fed to livestock once the oil has been extracted for humans.

You can tell me I'm wrong but the only place I've seen people say that soy is primarily grown for humans is on boards.ie. The scientific consensus says otherwise.

Thelonious Monk

Say my name wrote: »

It's not all beef and dairy in this country.

Well given that 55% of our fruit and veg comes from my neck of the woods in North Dublin, a small area, it kinda looks like beef and dairy is all we produce elsewhere.

White Clover

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You can tell me I'm wrong but the only place I've seen people say that soy is primarily grown for humans is on boards.ie. The scientific consensus says otherwise.

Good quality source for that?

Thelonious Monk

White Clover wrote: »

Good quality source for that?

https://www.usda.gov/sites/default/files/documents/coexistence-soybeans-factsheet.pdf

Just over 70 percent of the soybeans grown in the United States are used for animal feed

That's from the US Dept of Agriculture for e.g.

Bigbooty

White Clover wrote: »

Wrong again. The waste left over is fed to livestock once the oil has been extracted for humans.

Complete untrue. The total amount of soy meal consumed globally is about 250 million tonnes while soy oil is around 55 million tonnes. The cost per ton of soy meal is around 300-400 dollars a ton while soy oil is 700-800. 97% of all meal is used in animal agriculture. Soy meal is not a byproduct.

White Clover

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

What does that mean? There are initiatives in Scotland at the moment where they've fenced off areas from sheep, and native trees have flourished, which has led to an increase in wildlife.
Sheep love saplings so if you let them loose on hills nothing can grow there.

Do Gooders were advocating for what you are now. One or 2 dominant plants began smothering out much of our native flora. That wasn't the case when the sheep were there. That is why they had to put the sheep back up, to bring balance to the whole situation. Balance is very important!

The Scottish could learn alot from us, you know.

Thelonious Monk

Bigbooty wrote: »

Complete untrue. The total amount of soy meal consumed globally is about 250 million tonnes while soy oil is around 55 million tonnes. The cost per ton of soy Meal around 300-400 dollars a ton while soy oil is 700-800. 97% of all meal is used in animal agriculture. Soy meal is not a byproduct.

Also 97% of Brazilian soy is genetically modified, which is banned for human consumption in many countries and is rarely used to make tofu and soya milk in any case

https://www.isaaa.org/resources/publications/biotech_country_facts_and_trends/download/Facts%20and%20Trends%20-%20Brazil.pdf

Unearthly

Good to see the Soy thing cleared up with science. I had a feeling the stuff constantly posted that Soy is used more for humans than livestock was nonsese

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Also 97% of Brazilian soy is genetically modified, which is banned for human consumption in many countries and is rarely used to make tofu and soya milk in any case

https://www.isaaa.org/resources/publications/biotech_country_facts_and_trends/download/Facts%20and%20Trends%20-%20Brazil.pdf

So if it’s banned for human consumption then how does it work if it’s consumed by animals and then those animals are consumed by humans ?

Thelonious Monk

You can talk about vegans importing peppers from Spain but look at this, animal feed comes from places as far flung as Vietnam and Fiji

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/where-are-animal-feed-imports-coming-from/

Hardly seems sustainable.

Say my name

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well given that 55% of our fruit and veg comes from my neck of the woods in North Dublin, a small area, it kinda looks like beef and dairy is all we produce elsewhere.

And our strawberries from wexford and Spain. And tillage in the south and east.

Are you sure of that 55% figure.
Must be a lot less.
The number of veg growers decreased by half in the last twenty years due to consumers and the market.

Thelonious Monk

Say my name wrote: »

And our strawberries from wexford and Spain. And tillage in the south and east.

Are you sure of that 55% figure.
Must be a lot less.
The number of veg growers decreased by half in the last twenty years due to consumers and the market.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-20242443.html

Fingal county provides around 55% of the country’s fresh produce, which includes soft fruits and berries, apples, lettuces, peppers, asparagus, potatoes, onions, and carrots.

Gary kk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.usda.gov/sites/default/files/documents/coexistence-soybeans-factsheet.pdf



That's from the US Dept of Agriculture for e.g.

Yeah look when the hulls/ beans are pressed and we get 18 or 19 present oil then the leftover is sent for animal feed. That is commonly acknowledged. It's not in different fields or plants, rather it's the same hulls for both.

Thelonious Monk

I have nothing against farmers doing their thing to make money. I just think our planet is sick and the food system for us is ridiculously unsustainable. I'm sure we could all still have some meat, sometimes, but we can't keep destroying habitats to produce food, we could produce enough food for all of us using less land and give more back to nature, if we all just ate less meat.

Say my name

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-20242443.html

Any more recent accounts?

Thelonious Monk

Say my name wrote: »

Any more recent accounts?

Can't be bothered looking now, but still you can see that a tiny part of the country grows a huge percentage of the fruit and veg, and it shows how we need to diversify. I know a lot of the land isn't suitable but a lot of it is.

Gary kk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You can talk about vegans importing peppers from Spain but look at this, animal feed comes from places as far flung as Vietnam and Fiji

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/where-are-animal-feed-imports-coming-from/

Hardly seems sustainable.

If you read on down past the head line you will see where it says mainly from byproduct.

Oh this is a second source that says animal feed is mainly derived from byproducts. Go you well done.

Thelonious Monk

Gary kk wrote: »

Yeah look when the hulls/ beans are pressed and we get 18 or 19 present oil then the leftover is sent for animal feed. That is commonly acknowledged. It's not in different fields or plants, rather it's the same hulls for both.

Someone should contact the Dept of Ag in USA and let them know that they're spreading misinformation and that all their soy is actually primarily grown not for animal feed.

Gary kk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Someone should contact the Dept of Ag in USA and let them know that they're spreading misinformation and that all their soy is actually primarily grown not for animal feed.

Did they say it was grown mostly for animal feed or that most of went for animal feed. There is a difference I guess I most check after.

That's me for today. Slan.

Thelonious Monk

Gary kk wrote: »

Did they say it was grown mostly for animal feed or that most of went for animal feed. There is a difference I guess I most check after.

That's me for today. Slan.

It does say it's primarily for animals. Oiche mhaith.

Say my name

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I have nothing against farmers doing their thing to make money. I just think our planet is sick and the food system for us is ridiculously unsustainable. I'm sure we could all still have some meat, sometimes, but we can't keep destroying habitats to produce food, we could produce enough food for all of us using less land and give more back to nature, if we all just ate less meat.

But your producing meat from a sustainable plant that feeds microbes in the soil and sequesters carbon.
That meat means you've a denser bone mass and less likely to get strokes.
I've dung beetles on farm that feed badgers, foxes, herons, crows, raven, swallows, swifts. It all comes from the cow.

Covering farms in polythene tunnels is no answer either.
Blaming habitat loss purely on livestock is not correct. There's a whole ecosystem in Ireland dependent on livestock farming.

Your veg and tillage farms degrade soil more than any other.
Regenerative farming uses all the bases of farming. It's balance to go forward.

Markcheese

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Can't be bothered looking now, but still you can see that a tiny part of the country grows a huge percentage of the fruit and veg, and it shows how we need to diversify. I know a lot of the land isn't suitable but a lot of it is.

There used to be quite a couple of veg growing areas in cork , ( just 20 years ago ) ..
With the the exception of 2 or 3 growers there gone , it just didn't pay ..

El Tarangu

EastTyrone wrote: »

What do vegans think of the fact that drinking soya milk is destroying the rainforest?

Wrong.

White Clover wrote: »

Wrong again. The waste left over is fed to livestock once the oil has been extracted for humans.

This falsehood has been proffered 10 times so far on this thread with zero evidence, and in fact loads of evidence to the contrary suggesting that no, it isn't just convenient, left over soy fed to animals.

"Twenty-six percent of the Planet’s ice-free land is used for livestock grazing
and 33 percent of croplands are used for livestock feed production. "

http://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf