If the world goes completely vegan

El Tarangu

Gary kk wrote: »

And of the 66% cropland how much is for confectionery for alcohol and other products we don't necessarily need maybe we could rewind that land first. And no I don't expect anyone to agree to that.

Again - this post is an example from posters from the F & F forum asking posters on this forum to solve all the problems of agricultural production, of any kind.

Perhaps you should try on the beer, wine and spirits forum, because tbh I don't see how this question is relevant to this forum.

Gary kk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You can make quite a lot of alcohol with not that much sugar and a packet of yeast and a few flavourings, I make a ginger beer easy enough that comes in at about 7.2%, I wonder what the biological footprint of that is.

7.2% I would be ko after a pint.

Gary kk

El Tarangu wrote: »

Again - this post is an example from posters from the F & F forum asking posters on this forum to solve all the problems of agricultural production, of any kind.

Perhaps you should try on the beer, wine and spirits forum, because tbh I don't see how this question is relevant to this forum.

Cool

ElKavo

The boss of Eat Just called it "one of the most significant milestones in the food industries" but challenges remain.

Firstly, it is much more expensive to produce lab-grown meat than plant-based products.

Case in point: Eat Just previously said it would sell lab-grown chicken nuggets at $50 each.

The cost has since come down but it will still be as expensive as premium chicken.

SRC: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55155741

Although it was $50 the price has already come down. Thought the article doesn't give a todays price. It certainly wont take 30 years before we see these directly competing with the cheapest nuggets on the market. Tech moves quick, far quicker than any optimization in animal farming.

Thelonious Monk

I wonder how it works... do they have to feed soy to some kind of meat lab monster?

ElKavo

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I wonder how it works... do they have to feed soy to some kind of meat lab monster?

Well 66% anyway

Seamai

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/02/no-kill-lab-grown-meat-to-go-on-sale-for-first-time

Cultured fake chicken approved in Singapore. I wonder how long before this kind of stuff will become available in Europe?

I read that earlier, sounds vile. There was a time when some people shifted towards vegetarian diets for health reasons, (myself included for almost 10 years). However veganism seems a very different animal (no pun intended) to me.
In the last few years there has been a huge drive towards producing all manner of vegan options to pretty much everything, much of it highly processed and not healthy. A few years ago I was in vegan supermarket in Germany and was struck by how processed and unnatural much of the food was. I only eat meat a few times a week but I'd never substitute it with any sort of fake meat.

Thelonious Monk

Seamai wrote: »

I read that earlier, sounds vile. There was a time when some people shifted towards vegetarian diets for health reasons, (myself included for almost 10 years). However veganism seems a very different animal (no pun intended) to me.
In the last few years there has been a huge drive towards producing all manner of vegan options to pretty much everything, much of it highly processed and not healthy. A few years ago I was in vegan supermarket in Germany and was struck by how processed and unnatural much of the food was. I only eat meat a few times a week but I'd never substitute it with any sort of fake meat.

Vegan or not, everyone eats too much processed food. It's a big market now for vegans but the staples of a good vegan diet would be pulses and veg.

gozunda

Gary kk wrote: »

Edit : Just to clarify I don't know because I am having a hell of a time trying to locate solid figures on what products are produced and value of the products produced.

I'd agree with that much of what is published is at best confusing.

I think what we do know is that 86% of livestock feed is not suitable for human consumption and much of that is crop residues and by-products

On the article quoted above

Analysis of shipping data shows that Cargill imported 1.5m tonnes of Brazilian soya to the UK in the six years 

That works out at approx. 250,000 kg of Brazilian soybeans imported into the UK each year. And as you pointed out those soybeans are processed for their oil and the leftover meal is sent for animal feed.

Don't agree with growing soy there - but looking at total Soybean production for Brazil - that's a drop in the ocean tbh. Production figures show that more than 122 million metric tons of soy beans were grown in Brazil in 2019/ 2020.

In the same period combined domestic use and exports of soy beans to China made up 87% (106.6 million metric tons) of all soybeans grown in Brazil

Leaving approx 13 % of all Brazilian soybeans being exported to other countries globally - of which the main importers were the Netherlands, Iran and Spain Thailand and Turkey.

I'd like to see all countries stopping such imports from Brazil. Not sure how that would go down with China tbh.

At present approx two thirds of all soybeans are grown outside of Brazil with the United States as the leading soybean producing country globally. No reason Brazilian production cant be moved to other suitable regions which don't involve deforestation tbh.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/02/no-kill-lab-grown-meat-to-go-on-sale-for-first-time

Cultured fake chicken approved in Singapore. I wonder how long before this kind of stuff will become available in Europe?

It’s clear where all this is heading and it’s great to see.

The numbers in there are crazy and this is from the article - https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/02/chart-of-the-day-this-is-how-many-animals-we-eat-each-year/

This will be an easy transition for your average carnist to make and especially the younger carnist who wants to make better choices for, what will be, their planet.

It’s also good to see the terms ‘drug-free’ and ‘cruelty-free meat’ in that article as I’ve never understood the struggle to accept that those terms have common use.

The Guardian has always provided great journalism and I’m happy to make my regular contributions to access their online content. I would encourage more people to do this. I do it through PayPal.

This article gives hope and it’s great to think that within 20 years we could see that 60% of meat provided will not come from dead animals - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/12/most-meat-in-2040-will-not-come-from-slaughtered-animals-report

That’s great news for the environment and for the billions of animals that won’t face slaughter.

Thelonious Monk

The Guardian have this as their main story tonight

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/02/humanity-is-waging-war-on-nature-says-un-secretary-general-antonio-guterres

They are the only major news source that are taking the environmental crisis seriously. That is why I have given them contributions. Also love their sport content.

richie123

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Not yet, but some day, i reckon. I cant see it ever replacing meat totally it will just be another option, so you wont be out of a job any time soon.

Why wouldn't it replace meat it's basically the same thing ?
Only problem I have with this is it'll just be big conglomerate s that will be allowed produce it!

Thelonious Monk

richie123 wrote: »

Why wouldn't it replace meat it's basically the same thing ?
Only problem I have with this is it'll just be big conglomerate s that will be allowed produce it!

Well you're talking to a tiny subsection of people in this sub, most people would probably prefer to eat real animals, for now anyway. I just hope we can find a way to balance nature with food production, worldwide.

richie123

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well you're talking to a tiny subsection of people in this sub, most people would probably prefer to eat real animals, for now anyway. I just hope we can find a way to balance nature with food production, worldwide.

Lab grown has some battle to become mainstream.beef at the minute is produced below cost and it's dirt cheap ..vast majority on the planet don't care what they eat so long as it's cheap

White Clover

richie123 wrote: »

Lab grown has some battle to become mainstream.beef at the minute is produced below cost and it's dirt cheap ..vast majority on the planet don't care what they eat so long as it's cheap

True, but the conglomerates aim is money, they will keep banging the drum that food is manufactured by them in a factory.
Essentially, a certain amount of people will be dependent on these manufacturers for their food. The remainder will still realise that they can produce their own food of much higher quality without swelling the coffers of big business.

Tar.Aldarion

richie123 wrote: »

Lab grown has some battle to become mainstream.beef at the minute is produced below cost and it's dirt cheap ..vast majority on the planet don't care what they eat so long as it's cheap

I wonder how cheap they can make it, should have low costs when it is at scale. In 4 years it got 30,000 times cheaper to make.

patsy_mccabe

No farm yard animals = no farm yard manure

No farm yard manure = no organic fertiliser

No organic fertiliser = no sustainable food production for 8.3 billion people


It really is that simple.


.

richie123

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

No farm yard animals = no farm yard manure

No farm yard manure = no organic fertiliser

No organic fertiliser = no sustainable food production for 8.3 billion people


It really is that simple.

It's produced Ina lab.lab conditions on a massive scale
I suppose they'll use normal fertilizer to fertilize plant food though that's not a very carbon friendly process ...climate change is a problem too

richie123

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I wonder how cheap they can make it, should have low costs when it is at scale. In 4 years it got 30,000 times cheaper to make.

Jaz I doubt that ...was reading Richard Branson's take on it a while ago he reckoned it was 30 years away ... obviously he got it wrong but he won't be far out I'd imagine

White Clover

richie123 wrote: »

It's produced Ina lab.lab conditions on a massive scale
I suppose they'll use normal fertilizer to fertilize plant food though that's not a very carbon friendly process ...climate change is a problem too

Is it Artificial fertiliser you mean Richie?

richie123

White Clover wrote: »

Is it Artificial fertiliser you mean Richie?

Yes though I'm not sure what the vegan crowds take on that is ...yields would be very poor without artificial fertilizer

Necessity is the mother of invention.

So long as we stop imprisoning and slaughtering innocent animals then all will be good.

Gary kk

Don't rise to him.

Gary kk

Gary kk wrote: »

Don't rise to him.

You talking about Richie or White Clover ?

Nekarsulm

It's an interesting concept, is it meat if it was never conscious?
Or does the fact that its grown from the cells of a long dead chicken mean it's like Schrodigners cat, possibly both dead or alive?
As its currently grown in a modified bovine foetal blood serum, its not exactly vegan..
What is it exactly, when you grow chicken cells in bovine blood serum?
Chicken, beef? A hybrid creature?
As far as I know the special thing about foetal blood cells from umbilical cord is that they can be used to grow any cell in the body, hence its value in experimentation to try and repair spinal nerve column breaks, and grow organs for specific purposes.
Could the cells grown in such a broth ever gain a rudimentary nervous system if left in the tank for longer periods?
I'm sure if you can think it, some lab is trying it.
Whether it is grown from cells that never were conscious or not, it's difficult to see how a vegan would consider eating it as an acceptable way of ingesting protein.
In fact, it's hard to see how an omnivore would either..

Nekarsulm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Whether it is grown from cells that never were conscious or not, it's difficult to see how a vegan would consider eating it as an acceptable way of ingesting protein.
In fact, it's hard to see how an omnivore would either..

Same can be said right now but carnists still eat dead animals.

It’s pretty disgusting (thing to actually do) eating a dead innocent animal but some people still do it so not sure the alternative could be any worse really.

Nekarsulm

I was more interested in whether something grown in a tank from animal cells was technically "meat" than whether an animal is "innocent" or not.
Do animals care if their herd mate is innocent?
What is their concept of innocence like?
If two sheep square up to fight, and one breaks the others neck, or brain damaged them, ( as can easily happen without good sheparding) is it still "innocent" or is it now "guilty"?

Nekarsulm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I was more interested in whether something grown in a tank from animal cells was technically "meat" than whether an animal is "innocent" or not.
Do animals care if their herd mate is innocent?
What is their concept of innocence like?
If two sheep square up to fight, and one breaks the others neck, or brain damaged them, ( as can easily happen without good sheparding) is it still "innocent" or is it now "guilty"?

Are you comparing what happens in the wild with humans breeding, imprisoning and slaughtering innocent animals ?

Ten of Swords

Klopparama, while the substance of your question is perfectly valid your posts tonight are coming across as combative and inflammatory. Please be mindful of how you are engaging with other posters

Nekarsulm

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you comparing what happens in the wild with humans breeding, imprisoning and slaughtering innocent animals ?

You seem to have somehow missed my post in its entirety,
is a compound generated from bird cells grown in a bovine blood agar actually "meat"?
And if so, why would it be heralded as a breakthrough for vegans or vegetarians?
If it is meat, what are your views on "imprisioning" it in a 1200 litre vat while it is grown?
(seeing as you are determined to go down some emotive route).