Covid 19 Part XXVIII- 71,942 ROI(2,050 deaths) 51,824 NI (983 deaths) (28/11) Read OP

MOR316 · 20-11-2020 11:53am

Ger Roe wrote: »

NPHET make recommendations based on public health concerns. Our elected reps then decide if and how the recommendations should be implemented. A lot of the apparent contradictions you point out, may well not be directly associated with NPHET - there are government party agendas to be considered when they decide what to do. Everything has one eye on the health crisis, one on the next election and a third political eye on what pressure the back benchers are applying as a result of feedback they are receiving from their local troughs.

Politics is a dirty game of exerted influences and opportunity taking - those games continue to be played at all times, even during a global pandemic - look at the mess in the north for a perfect example.

It's not as simple as NPHET having total control of all that we hear and see.

NPHET are just as guilty of playing the political dirty games as the Government. They're the media darlings and it's clear as day they're cosy with a lot of the media who attend the press conferences. Zara King and George Lee being two obvious examples!

Forgot the pandemic for one moment, I honestly can't believe Tony Holohan is still CMO. I am astounded at the level of hero worship he gets from some people. The mural was absolutely sickening

tigger123 · 20-11-2020 11:53am

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I agree with much of this but NPHET have gone down the political route - especially when it comes to schools. They have lied their arses off, fiddled the figures and all whilst other countries are closing.

There needs to be more honesty and openness instead of bs and spin. . . and all with a little less finger pointing at people or certain sectors of society.

As things stand relative to Europe (and I don't like comparisons) things are not as bad. We are in a position to ease restrictions but is this what we want?

We need a clear strategy, realistic goals and a need for NPHET to stop sticking their heads in their arses and blaming certain people/sectors.

Which figures have they fiddled?

Amirani · 20-11-2020 11:55am

Hellrazer wrote: »

If you mean NPHET -NPHET shouldn't be delivering any messages - ever.

Our elected representatives should be delivering the messages they received from NPHET as NPHET work for them and in a round about way for every citizen in the country.

Public health doctors should absolutely be giving public health messages. It happens in every country.

I don't have faith in politicians to properly relay public health advice. They can stick to deciding on regulations, not being doctors.

Hellrazer wrote: »

NPHET should not be releasing statements at all. Especially not the CMO who threw all those women involved in the cervical cancer to the wolves. Hes scum and shouldn't be involved in the health of the public at all.

Remember he was the one who advised AGAINST a review of the cervical cancer screening programme.
We`ve very short memories here in Ireland.

He proposed an internal review ahead of an external one (largely to maintain confidence in screening - which has significantly reduced cervical cancer deaths to date). That's not being "against a review". Regardless, it was decided that an external one would be done instead.

You're correct, you do have a short memory (or possibly interpretation difficulties).

KrustyUCC · 20-11-2020 11:55am

tigger123 wrote: »

What constitutes Christmas week? December 24th to 31st?

Probably the 21st - 27th as its Monday to Sunday but they'd be better off to try 24th to 31st imo

MOR316 · 20-11-2020 11:56am

KrustyUCC wrote: »

No intercounty travel for another three weeks

Three weeks more of not seeing friends, family, partners

Good luck to the government selling that one

Even the Christmas week thing is laughable

Ye can travel 21st - 27th but not 28th to after New years

People are going to ignore that wholesale

I'm travelling to a different county on the 4th. Tough!

Peter Flynt · 20-11-2020 11:58am

tigger123 wrote: »

Which figures have they fiddled?

A teaching colleague of mine caught the virus.
She was contacted by the HSE.
When asked where she believed she was when she caught the virus she made it clear that she felt it was at school. . . . The response was "We'll put that down as a community transmission".

The virus has broken out in schools right across the country and to be a close contact to those infected is next to impossible relative to the rest of society. There was bascially no test and trace for schools, principals were reporting cases and the HSE were getting back 5 or 6 days later. . .

It's a scam.
Everyone working in schools knows it but we get on with it.

But the HSE/NPHET are heavily involved.

KrustyUCC · 20-11-2020 11:58am

MOR316 wrote: »

I'm travelling to a different county on the 4th. Tough!

Yes and there will be many many more who will ignore that advice as well

The Government and NPHET know this as well

US2 · 20-11-2020 11:59am

Portugal have deemed it unlawful to quarantine someone based on a PCR test result. They said the test is way too inaccurate.

MOR316 · 20-11-2020 12:00pm

Amirani wrote: »

Public health doctors should absolutely be giving public health messages. It happens in every country.

I don't have faith in politicians to properly relay public health advice. They can stick to deciding on regulations, not being doctors.

He proposed an internal review ahead of an external one (largely to maintain confidence in screening - which has significantly reduced cervical cancer deaths to date). That's not being "against a review". Regardless, it was decided that an external one would be done instead.

You're correct, you do have a short memory (or possibly interpretation difficulties).

No, he didn't.

Harris wanted an external review, Holohan said, "No, don't do that! Go with my report! No one else needs to see what's happening, there's no evidence that it's not up to standard. It says so here in the report I done. Here pick mine"

Ger Roe · 20-11-2020 12:01pm

KrustyUCC wrote: »

No intercounty travel for another three weeks

Three weeks more of not seeing friends, family, partners

Good luck to the government selling that one

Even the Christmas week thing is laughable

Ye can travel 21st - 27th but not 28th to after New years

People are going to ignore that wholesale

Some people.... will ignore everything wholesale, but someone still has to point out what people should do, in the interests of society in general.

What's the alternative .... let everyone blunder about as they see fit and ignore the consequences?

What one person does in the current situation, can affect many others, some of whom can not afford to have those risks taken on their behalf.

ednwireland · 20-11-2020 12:03pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

What we now get is Holohan throwing all his toys out of the NPHET pram because he wants the country half-open and next to no cases. . . . This ain't gonna happen so he blames sectors of society (young, old) and pits one part of society against another.

That guy is incompetent and needs to resign.

Either do the lockdown properly or don't it at all.

some of us have know that since we realised he tried to bury the cervical check scandal. he is defend the HSE at all costs no matter what the human or economic cost is and the politicians appear to be accepting it.

that people are now ignoring GOV/NPHET advice is now blatantly obvious and no lockdown will work anymore they don't appear to have a plan B (which in my opinion is open up but rigorously enforce mask wearing, shop limits etc etc. mass testing in the health services, schools, factories

Eod100 · 20-11-2020 12:05pm

KrustyUCC wrote: »

No intercounty travel for another three weeks

Three weeks more of not seeing friends, family, partners

Good luck to the government selling that one

Even the Christmas week thing is laughable

Ye can travel 21st - 27th but not 28th to after New years

People are going to ignore that wholesale

Also concentrating travel to specific time while capacity is restricted just means busier trains and buses and likely more traffic.

daydorunrun · 20-11-2020 12:07pm

People travelling will be gargling mouth wash pre test to make sure they don't test positive and lose their money on flights or get quarantined:pac:

seamus · 20-11-2020 12:08pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

A teaching colleague of mine caught the virus.

Right, so in other words you have no evidence that figures are being fiddled apart from some embellished story about what someone else heard.

If the figures were being fiddled, covered up, the health measures wouldn't be working.

It's as simple as that.

If schools were a major source of outbreaks, but it was being covered up and called something else so that the schools could remain open, then we would be seeing cases spiralling out of control despite our restrictions and we'd all be scratching our heads wondering WTF is going on.

That's not happening. Therefore it logically follows that schools are not a major area of concern, unlike hospitals, nursing homes or manufacturing.

There are some outbreaks in schools, nobody is pretending otherwise. Are they downplaying the risk that schools pose in order to keep people calm? Perhaps. But even if they are, they are downplaying what is already a small risk.

There is simply no way that schools could be a major risk but our cases keep dropping while they're open.

Allinall · 20-11-2020 12:10pm

MOR316 wrote: »

No, he didn't.

Harris wanted an external review, Holohan said, "No, don't do that! Go with my report! No one else needs to see what's happening, there's no evidence that it's not up to standard. It says so here in the report I done. Here pick mine"

When did Holohan say that? Any link?

Peter Flynt · 20-11-2020 12:15pm

seamus wrote: »

Right, so in other words you have no evidence that figures are being fiddled apart from some embellished story about what someone else heard.

If the figures were being fiddled, covered up, the health measures wouldn't be working.

It's as simple as that.

If schools were a major source of outbreaks, but it was being covered up and called something else so that the schools could remain open, then we would be seeing cases spiralling out of control despite our restrictions and we'd all be scratching our heads wondering WTF is going on.

That's not happening. Therefore it logically follows that schools are not a major area of concern, unlike hospitals, nursing homes or manufacturing.

There are some outbreaks in schools, nobody is pretending otherwise. Are they downplaying the risk that schools pose in order to keep people calm? Perhaps. But even if they are, they are downplaying what is already a small risk.

There is simply no way that schools could be a major risk but our cases keep dropping while they're open.

The Irish are claiming that schools are safer than general society as other countries are either closing schools, admitting that schools open contribute to R value by up to 0.3/0.4 or going online.

In Northern Ireland one school was identified with 48 students with the virus.

But we know different.

We're a corrupt country, that's why.

The evidence is there and is conclusive on schools.
It is been established by experts in other countries. . . and not spoofers like NPHET

paw patrol · 20-11-2020 12:16pm

AltGrp0 wrote: »

Thanks for your reply, I have heard the same thing but have been unable to verify, Would you have links to the FOI document by any chance?

I can't find a link but I've attached (bottom of post) a screen shot of the letter - personal details redacted .

Below is the covid committee discussion where it wasn't answered.
I don't know if he ever got back to the chairman.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/special_committee_on_covid_19_response/2020-09-29/3/

Chairman

What number of cycles of testing are likely to show that people have had the virus a very long time ago, are not symptomatic and, maybe, not even be shedding anymore? There is also the issue of a margin of error that is part of all tests.

Dr. Colm Henry

Yes. The manufacturer defines the number of cycles that go with the test. We do know because the PCR test picks up on RNA it is possible to find residual RNA after infection has resolved and the person is no longer infectious. We have seen that, and sometimes in some cases, for many weeks after a person ceases to be sick and infectious. One of the perks or problems with the test is that it can pick up on residual RNA weeks after active infection and after the person is no longer infectious.

Chairman

How many cycles are utilised in Irish testing?

Dr. Colm Henry

I cannot answer that but I will come back to the Chairman with an answer.

ACitizenErased · 20-11-2020 12:17pm

Just saw some of the discussion on here from last night.
Could someone explain where the whole public health doctors should be lecturing the public came from?

I'd like to direct those people to the Wikipedia definition of the Chief Medical Officer in Ireland:
The Chief Medical Officer (CMO) (Irish: An Príomh-Oifigeach Míochaine) for the Ireland is the most senior government advisor on health-related matters. It is a government post as the lead medical expert in the Department of Health.

Last time I checked, government advisors don't lecture the public.

Stateofyou · 20-11-2020 12:18pm

Interesting, or ridiculous more like, that schools are left out of every end of the finger pointing as spreading sources by the government. I heard on the radio this morning that school cases only numbered in the 120's. That's a bald faced lie. Why isn't the media actively reporting on and investigating the discrepancy in figures? They don't jive with international figures in schools (or even with those in NI) or with the Alerting Parents of Outbreaks in schools fb group. Something is clearly and obviously off. The convenient net of "outbreaks in homes" is another word for outbreaks at homes that most likely came from schools.

Also read an RTE article this morning that for me struck an obvious note of just how low we have set the bar with what we come to expect from the HSE. The article reported, "The current trolley count is down 70% on this day last year, he said, describing it as "very significant".

We have a trolley count. People, very ill people, are perpetually on trolley's instead of being cared for properly in our health care system. We've become numb to this and now we read the "good news" that the trolley count is down from last year, when we shouldn't have a "trolley count" AT ALL. It shouldn't be happening, ever. And how is it good news that many people aren't seeking out help when they need it because they're avoiding hospitals and indeed earlier intervention as well.

eagle eye · 20-11-2020 12:20pm

seamus wrote:

That's not happening. Therefore it logically follows that schools are not a major area of concern, unlike hospitals, nursing homes or manufacturing.

We have plateaued, there's something out there preventing us getting to where we were in July.
We need to figure out we can change to get there. One if the major differences is schools being open.

AltGrp0 · 20-11-2020 12:23pm

Covid vaccine trials specifically exclude everyone with serious underlying health conditions.
95% of covid deaths have at least one of these conditions. How the hell can they be declared safe for use?

stephenjmcd · 20-11-2020 12:24pm

KrustyUCC wrote: »

No intercounty travel for another three weeks

Three weeks more of not seeing friends, family, partners

Good luck to the government selling that one

Even the Christmas week thing is laughable

Ye can travel 21st - 27th but not 28th to after New years

People are going to ignore that wholesale

As I said in an earlier post, the travel piece is gone as soon as L3 comes in, government know it, there won't be large scale checkpoints etc, your going to have travel through December regardless

ACitizenErased · 20-11-2020 12:24pm

eagle eye wrote: »

We have plateaued, there's something out there preventing us getting to where we were in July.
We need to figure out we can change to get there. One if the major differences is schools being open.

We actually haven't plateaued. Cases notified have, cases by epi date haven't.

Thierry12 · 20-11-2020 12:25pm

eagle eye wrote: »

We have plateaued, there's something out there preventing us getting to where we were in July.
We need to figure out we can change to get there. One if the major differences is schools being open.

Correct

Hospitals and schools have always been the driver of cases

seamus · 20-11-2020 12:27pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The Irish are claiming that schools are safer than general society as other countries are either closing schools, admitting that schools open contribute to R value by up to 0.3/0.4 or going online.

In Northern Ireland one school was identified with 48 students with the virus.

But we know different.

We're a corrupt country, that's why.

The evidence is there and is conclusive on schools.
It is been established by experts in other countries. . . and not spoofers like NPHET

None of that supports your conspiracy theory. The fact that some countries are having issues in schools and some countries are choosing to close them, does not logically require that our schools are the same.

No experts in other countries have done a study on schools in the Republic of Ireland and come to the conclusion that they are spreading the virus.

The problem with clinging onto this belief that schools are a problem is that you have prop it up with a whole framework of conspiracies and assumptions.

If schools are a major spreader, but cases are going down, then the only logical conclusion is that cases derived from schools are not being reported.

If cases are not being reported, then one of the following must be true;

- GPs have been told to stop sending school children for tests, or to not report cases in school children
- Contact tracers have been told to not do contact tracing on confirmed cases in school children

Since either of these activities would result in the data popping up elsewhere (high GP referrals, high GP contacts, high swab numbers), you also need teams elsewhere to catch and hide this data to ensure that everything looks above board. Not to mention the fact that we would have hundreds of GP sounding the alarm about it.

So you can see that in order to support your original assertion that schools are a major problem area being covered up, you've had to construct a whole house of cards consisting of sub-conspiracies.

When the conclusion which requires no conspiracies and no assumptions, is that schools are not a major source of transmission.

eagle eye · 20-11-2020 12:27pm

ACitizenErased wrote:

We actually haven't plateaued. Cases notified have, cases by epi date haven't.

What is that graph? Where did you get it?
14 day cumulative totals?

ACitizenErased · 20-11-2020 12:28pm

eagle eye wrote: »

What is that graph? Where did you get it?
14 day cumulative totals?

HPSC, daily report.
"14 day incidence rate of confirmed COVID-19 cases per 100,000 population notified in Ireland by notification* and epidemiological date** to midnight 17/11/2020"
https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/casesinireland/epidemiologyofcovid-19inireland/COVID-19%20Daily%20epidemiology%20report%20(NPHET)_20201119_website.pdf

Turtwig · 20-11-2020 12:30pm

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Just saw some of the discussion on here from last night.
Could someone explain where the whole public health doctors should be lecturing the public came from?

I'd like to direct those people to the Wikipedia definition of the Chief Medical Officer in Ireland:
The Chief Medical Officer (CMO) (Irish: An Príomh-Oifigeach Míochaine) for the Ireland is the most senior government advisor on health-related matters. It is a government post as the lead medical expert in the Department of Health.

Last time I checked, government advisors don't lecture the public.

It's generally very well established that during a crisis you have one expert, whomever that may be, that becomes the public face to that crisis. Too many cooks...
Message needs to be clear, concise and as consistent as reasonably possible. Having everyone and their mother voice their opinions on public broadcasts leads to more confusion and less effective actions by the public.

Eod100 · 20-11-2020 12:30pm

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Just saw some of the discussion on here from last night.
Could someone explain where the whole public health doctors should be lecturing the public came from?

I'd like to direct those people to the Wikipedia definition of the Chief Medical Officer in Ireland:
The Chief Medical Officer (CMO) (Irish: An Príomh-Oifigeach Míochaine) for the Ireland is the most senior government advisor on health-related matters. It is a government post as the lead medical expert in the Department of Health.

Last time I checked, government advisors don't lecture the public.

I'd be more curious about why the feel the need to do so. Part of the public health messaging is getting public and politicians on side. All along it's always been NPHET advise, government decide. The ultimate decision has always been with government.

AltGrp0 · 20-11-2020 12:31pm

paw patrol wrote: »

I can't find a link but I've attached (bottom of post) a screen shot of the letter - personal details redacted .

Below is the covid committee discussion where it wasn't answered.
I don't know if he ever got back to the chairman.

Sound, thanks. That is very worrying but confirms what I thought, the PCR test cycle thresholds are generating huge % false positives. It's this type of thing has me concerned. I watched the oireachteas hearings. No straight answers forthcoming from Glynn et al

Covid 19 Part XXVIII- 71,942 ROI(2,050 deaths) 51,824 NI (983 deaths) (28/11) Read OP

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