Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings

BeefeaterHat · 18-11-2020 07:57PM

Dempo1 wrote: »

IBEC & Retail excellence beginning to sound like broken records, it's a bit like ground hog day, the same old "Woe is me Mantra" when we are nearing an end to a specified level, today a little different, IBEC go after NPHET in quite a personal attack, claiming individual members doing interviews discussing business decisions, absolute nonsense of course. Various medical experts have been doing interviews, discussing medical facts and in fairness none that I can recall are over joyed at any business being closed.

2000 deaths is today's milestone, in the US a death every 50 seconds, yes every 50 seconds currently being reported.

FFS, there has and are exceedingly generous businesses supports (rarely acknowledged by representative groups)

I won't get started on the TUI nonsense seeking extra holidays.

Is it really to much to ask, a little objectivity and patience.

To be fair there are 150k+ people out of work due to restrictions and God knows how many more might yet be made redundant or lose their businesses altogether. It's nothing trivial

Ginger n Lemon · 18-11-2020 07:57PM

kippy wrote: »

Where the problem, exceeding targets.
Have a look at the numbers elsewhere:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305415879_Increasing_the_coverage_of_influenza_vaccination_in_healthcare_workers_review_of_challenges_and_solutions

(latest data I can find)

What is this rubbish from 2016?

Look elsewhere? Why would I look elsewhere? HSE and flu vaccine is non existent. And you send me a link to some research study published in 2016 and telling me to look elsewhere?

Is this one of those "Shure look those young people drinking on the streets in south Dublin are probably responsible for rising numbers" deflection tactic?

BeefeaterHat · 18-11-2020 07:58PM

kippy wrote: »

Sound.
It's the same as the "plan" here then.

We have no plan the Japanese do, the British do and the Germans do. What are you missing here?

18-11-2020 07:58PM

froog wrote: »

you're right, i value elderly lives more than jobs. i'm completely ok with that.

We’ve only had about 350 Covid deaths since June 1st... And that’s WITH Covid deaths. So likely very elderly people with multiple underlying conditions.

Add three more zeros to that 350 figure and you have the number of people on PUP payments.

If it was 1 elderly life vs a job, obviously the elderly life is important.

But the stats are showing that it is more like 1000 jobs lost for 1 life. And that is obviously not acceptable. And again, that is to “save “ a life of a person above life expectancy.

Thank god you are not in charge of the country if you disagree with this...

road_high · 18-11-2020 07:58PM

froog wrote: »

none of your business random internet person.

and none of those is anywhere close to a moral reason why a normal human being would value jobs over elderly human lives.

I think everyone else has laid their cards in their table as to where they’re at age wise, job security wise etc. I know I have and several times- I’ve no problem with doing so as it adds to my bona fide as a contributor- I don’t see why anyone would want to hide their outline circumstances here especially when they wish to stake out the high moral ground above all others

kippy · 18-11-2020 07:58PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

There will be no money to pay for pensions, medical cards or a health service for said elderly if there are hundreds of thousands of people out of work.

It shouldn’t be an either or scenario, there needs to be a balance of interests here.
Because it’s easy to dismiss it as just sacrificing one job for one elderly life, pretty much everyone would be on board with that kind of emotional manipulation when you word it like that.
But it’s not just one job, is it? It’s hundreds of thousands of them.
There was 1.2 million people receiving financial assistance from the government at the height of lockdown round one, just to put that into perspective.

And those people have mortgages and rent to pay, children and families to support and bills to pay, they have hopes dreams and a future.
Massive numbers of those people and their children should not have to sacrifice all that and live in severe financial distress for an indefinite amount of time just to figuratively ‘save one life’.
They shouldn’t have to be collateral damage, they matter too.

The best way to save elderly lives would be for the government and NPHET to focus all their attention on getting cases and testing in nursing homes, care facilities and hospitals under control.
But unfortunately that would involve them taking some responsibility for the sh*t show that is our health service and they won’t do that, so instead we all have to live with the pontificating finger wagging from Dr Death every day of the week, where he blames the world and his wife for the uptick in cases instead of admitting they’ve made a balls of managing the spread of the virus in nursing homes and hospitals AGAIN.

I agree with the entirity of this post - for the record.

It has to be stated, for that to happen, the majority of the populace HAVE to continue to socially distance, avoid large scale gatherings, wear a mask etc.

Thierry12 · 18-11-2020 07:59PM

Goldengirl wrote: »

It does happen , but very very rarely and more likely an anaphylactic reaction then anything else , or pre existing infection .
You know the flu vaccine cannot cause pneumonia in anyone, don't you ? It's not a live virus ! Even the " miniflu" that MAY occur after injection is just a mild cold to most for a day or so , or headaches and a sore arm.
You didn't know that ?
So who are you calling thick then?
Bit of a coincidence you have that narrative and have a handy little anecdote that is exactly the same as that being circulated on that site .

Also why does your default response be to call other posters thick or ignorant ? Very uncivil of you ..

Apologies for the thick part

You've accused me of lieing a few times for no reason

froog · 18-11-2020 07:59PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

There will be no money to pay for pensions, medical cards or a health service for said elderly if there are hundreds of thousands of people out of work.

It shouldn’t be an either or scenario, there needs to be a balance of interests here.
Because it’s easy to dismiss it as just sacrificing one job for one elderly life, pretty much everyone would be on board with that kind of emotional manipulation when you word it like that.
But it’s not just one job, is it? It’s hundreds of thousands of them.
There was 1.2 million people on the PUP at the height of lockdown round one, just to put that into perspective.

And those people have mortgages and rent to pay, children and families to support and bills to pay, they have hopes dreams and a future.
Massive numbers of those people and their children should not have to sacrifice all that and live in severe financial distress for an indefinite amount of time just to figuratively ‘save one life’.

The best way to save elderly lives would be for the government and NPHET to focus all their attention on getting cases and testing in nursing homes, care facilities and hospitals under control.
But unfortunately that would involve them taking some responsibility for the sh*t show that is our health service and they won’t do that, so instead we all have to live with the pontificating finger wagging from Dr Death every day of the week, where he blames the world and his wife for the uptick in cases instead of admitting they’ve made a balls of managing the spread of the virus in nursing homes and hospitals AGAIN.

why do people keep repeating the "just to save one life" line? does it make you feel better? the reality is thousands of lives. that is a fact. 2000 dead with heavy restrictions. easily 10000+ if we said "**** it, they're nearly dead anyway". at least acknowledge the numbers here.

froog · 18-11-2020 08:01PM

road_high wrote: »

I think everyone else has laid their cards in their table as to where they’re at age wise, job security wise etc. I know I have and several times- I’ve no problem with doing so as it adds to my bona fide as a contributor- I don’t see why anyone would want to hide their outline circumstances here especially when they wish to stake out the high moral ground above all others

if you're probing someone on the internet for personal information to use against them, you've lost the argument pal.

PTH2009 · 18-11-2020 08:01PM

Jesus George was in some form on the news with the negativity, he was hiding a smile.The overlords NPHET meeting tomorrow who will not happy with the lack of progress made.

Think this kills off Level 2 and the pubs been open

kippy · 18-11-2020 08:02PM

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

We have no plan the Japanese do, the British do and the Germans do. What are you missing here?

The "Plan" you readily admit you know nothing about from the Japanese outside of the primeminister saying everyone will be vacinated before June 2021.
That's not a plan.
What are you missing here.....
I've not attempted to look for the British or German plan as I suspect I'll find much the same thing.

The "plan" to roll out the vacine here will hinge on:
1. When supply starts/how much supply is available.
2. After that I doub't there's really that much to it. Offer to high risk people by healthcare workers in GP surgerys, Care homes, Hospitals, Clinics, Existing Covid Test centres......

It all hinges on Supply and when it's available.

froog · 18-11-2020 08:03PM

Deleted User wrote: »

We’ve only had about 350 Covid deaths since June 1st... And that’s WITH Covid deaths. So likely very elderly people with multiple underlying conditions.

Add three more zeros to that 350 figure and you have the number of people on PUP payments.

If it was 1 elderly life vs a job, obviously the elderly life is important.

But the stats are showing that it is more like 1000 jobs lost for 1 life. And that is obviously not acceptable. And again, that is to “save “ a life of a person above life expectancy.

Thank god you are not in charge of the country if you disagree with this...

so that's your magic number? 1000 jobs > 1 life.

welcome to 2020 folks. welcome to hell.

road_high · 18-11-2020 08:04PM

froog wrote: »

if you're probing someone on the internet for personal information to use against them, you've lost the argument pal.

Not at all- your personal circumstances greatly colour your opinion and standpoint- that’s simply just human nature.
The fact you seem reticent to offer yours damages your argument and standing- not mine

18-11-2020 08:05PM

froog wrote: »

why do people keep repeating the "just to save one life" line? does it make you feel better? the reality is thousands of lives. that is a fact. 2000 dead with heavy restrictions. easily 10000+ if we said "**** it, they're nearly dead anyway". at least acknowledge the numbers here.

Ah it’s clearer now.
You obviously believe the nonsense that lockdown is saving thousands of lives.

Have a look at Sweden. They didn’t lockdown and have double our population.

Guess they should have more than 20000 deaths?

Ginger n Lemon · 18-11-2020 08:06PM

froog wrote: »

why do people keep repeating the "just to save one life" line? does it make you feel better? the reality is thousands of lives. that is a fact. 2000 dead with heavy restrictions. easily 10000+ if we said "**** it, they're nearly dead anyway". at least acknowledge the numbers here.

The most hysterical post I read in this thread.

This is up there with HSE pharmacist talking about 300% + increase in new cases in his "hospital".

Seriously stop watching RTE news.

Also, co incidentally 95% + of those deaths are over the life expectancy age. I trust you know what life expectancy is?

SusieBlue · 18-11-2020 08:06PM

froog wrote: »

why do people keep repeating the "just to save one life" line? does it make you feel better? the reality is thousands of lives. that is a fact. 2000 dead with heavy restrictions. easily 10000+ if we said "**** it, they're nearly dead anyway". at least acknowledge the numbers here.

And how many indirect deaths will the lockdowns cause? From missed cancer screenings, delayed consultations, a huge delay in elective surgeries, mental health issues and suicide? Why do those lives and deaths not matter, why are covid cases and deaths more important?

Can you at least acknowledge the numbers here?

Neither should be more valuable or more important than the other.

kippy · 18-11-2020 08:06PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah it’s clearer now.
You obviously believe the nonsense that lockdown is saving thousands of lives.

Have a look at Sweden. They didn’t lockdown and have double our population.

Guess they should have more than 20000 deaths?

You need to do a bit of research.
To suggest that Sweden didn't "lock down" is to suggest that life continued as it was pre March.
This is/was not the case in any way.

kippy · 18-11-2020 08:07PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

And how many indirect deaths will the lockdowns cause? From missed cancer screenings, delayed consultations, a huge delay in elective surgeries, mental health issues and suicide? Why do those lives and deaths not matter, why are covid cases and deaths more important?

Can you at least acknowledge the numbers here?

Neither should be more valuable or more important than the other.

Yep,
there's a balance.
Which is why as we move through time, the restrictions applied are lesser thant they were last time out......

BeefeaterHat · 18-11-2020 08:07PM

kippy wrote: »

The "Plan" you readily admit you know nothing about from the Japanese outside of the primeminister saying everyone will be vacinated before June 2021.
That's not a plan.
What are you missing here.....
I've not attempted to look for the British or German plan as I suspect I'll find much the same thing.

The "plan" to roll out the vacine here will hinge on:
1. When supply starts/how much supply is available.
2. After that I doub't there's really that much to it. Offer to high risk people by healthcare workers in GP surgerys, Care homes, Hospitals, Clinics, Existing Covid Test centres......

It all hinges on Supply and when it's available.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/11/10/national/science-health/prioritize-older-people-administering-coronavirus-vaccines/

There's a link laying out Japan's plans regarding supplies and who gets it when. Britain are drafting in the army to help with rollout and Germany have already decided the locations of the jab centres. Any such plans here?

froog · 18-11-2020 08:07PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

And how many indirect deaths will the lockdowns cause? From missed cancer screenings, delayed consultations, a huge delay in elective surgeries, mental health issues and suicide? Why do those lives and deaths not matter, why are covid cases and deaths more important?

Can you at least acknowledge the numbers here?

Neither should be more valuable or more important than the other.

you tell me, how many?

18-11-2020 08:08PM

froog wrote: »

so that's your magic number? 1000 jobs > 1 life.

welcome to 2020 folks. welcome to hell.

Perhaps the word jobs make you so queasy?

What about livelihoods?

How many livelihoods should we destroy in a bizarre attempt to “save” a person above life expectancy from dying?

kippy · 18-11-2020 08:09PM

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/11/10/national/science-health/prioritize-older-people-administering-coronavirus-vaccines/

There's a link laying out Japan's plans regarding supplies and who gets it when. Britain are drafting in the army to help with rollout and Germany have already decided the locations of the jab centres. Any such plans here?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/covid-19-taoiseach-says-mass-vaccinations-unlikely-before-mid-2021-1.4410908
There ya go.
Much the same.......(as the japanese) - fluff for the minute with broad goals.......

BeefeaterHat · 18-11-2020 08:12PM

kippy wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/covid-19-taoiseach-says-mass-vaccinations-unlikely-before-mid-2021-1.4410908
There ya go.
Much the same.......

One key difference, we'll only start general rollout in mid 2021. Everyone in Japan will be vaccinated by then according to their plan

18-11-2020 08:12PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

The most hysterical post I read in this thread.

This is up there with HSE pharmacist talking about 300% + increase in new cases in his "hospital".

Seriously stop watching RTE news.

Also, co incidentally 95% + of those deaths are over the life expectancy age. I trust you know what life expectancy is?

Exactly.
We have 350 deaths in total since June 1st.

People still coming out with this 10000+ nonsense.

SusieBlue · 18-11-2020 08:13PM

froog wrote: »

you tell me, how many?

You’re the one who said that elderly are more important than jobs, when I explained why employment is important you then started harping on about thousands dead from covid as justification for destroying all those people’s futures.
Even though even more people will die in the coming years indirectly from the lockdowns.

So seeing as you were the one who raised the issues of the lockdowns being necessary to stop ‘thousands of covid deaths’, I’m asking you to acknowledge that as many if not more will die as a result of the lockdowns.
And I’d like to hear your thoughts on why those lives aren’t as important or as worthy of consideration.

kippy · 18-11-2020 08:14PM

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

One key difference, we'll only start general rollout in mid 2021. Everyone in Japan will be vaccinated by then according to their plan

So you are saying that we do have a plan?

hamburgham · 18-11-2020 08:16PM

sabat wrote: »

So when do people think we'll see the first criminal trials rolling out? NPHET show great promise for early results but if we're lucky we could reach cabinet level by the summer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEo3rnU12jw

Was just thinking today of the way Anglo Seanie was feted. Remember hearing Marian (RIP) absolutely salivating over him, telling him how brilliant he was etc. Hope we’re not waiting too long for the tide to turn on Tony.

pjohnson · 18-11-2020 08:16PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

You’re the one who said that elderly are more important than jobs, when I explained why employment is important you then started harping on about thousands dead from covid as justification for destroying all those people’s futures.
Even though even more people will die in the coming years indirectly from the lockdowns.

So seeing as you were the one who raised the issues of the lockdowns being necessary to stop ‘thousands of covid deaths’, I’m asking you to acknowledge that as many if not more will die as a result of the lockdowns.
And I’d like to hear your thoughts on why those lives aren’t as important or as worthy of consideration.

Interesting tactic.

bucketybuck · 18-11-2020 08:16PM

froog wrote: »

why a normal human being would value jobs over elderly human lives.

Poverty kills people.

That is a simple fact but unfortunately it is a fact that far too many cannot comprehend.

BeefeaterHat · 18-11-2020 08:18PM

kippy wrote: »

So you are saying that we do have a plan?

Never said we didn't I just said that we're far behind other countries with much larger populations. Your entire argument seems to hinge on everyone else's government being as inept as ours which patently isn't the case

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

Comments

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings