COVID-19: Vaccine/antidote and testing procedures Megathread [Mod Warning - Post #1]

iguana · 17-11-2020 01:56PM

Sconsey wrote: »

It makes the pending Az/Oxford announcement even more interesting. I don't know what percentage effictivness they are expecting but the pressure on them has been ramped up by the first two announcements.

What are the transport and storage requirements for Chadox1? Afaik, they are much more standard. So a slightly lower efficacy could be counterbalanced by the ease of which they could be distributed and given to lower risk sections of the population.

17-11-2020 02:11PM

Just looking at the timelines for enrolment for Moderna, BioNtech and Oxford, looks like Oxford and Pfizer should both have the two months of safety data later this month and Moderna shortly after. Presuming Oxford show the required efficacy sometime in the next few weeks you'd expect they should be able to apply for the EUA basically straight away.

Deeper Blue · 17-11-2020 03:41PM

Irish Stones wrote: »

See my post above. The source is always that fake newspapers that publishes absolute rubbish, but so far it's always proven right for what concerns us.

You posted a link last week saying there wouldn't be any trial data for another 6 months or a vaccine until 2023.

Two hours later Pfizer made their announcement.

Time for some new sources I think

Gael23 · 17-11-2020 03:41PM

If they are trying to outdo each other with efficacy that’s not good for Oxford

stephenjmcd · 17-11-2020 03:43PM

Gael23 wrote: »

If they are trying to outdo each other with efficacy that’s not good for Oxford

Nobody is trying to out do anybody.

Companies don't have access to the efficency data prior to independent assessment, the independent boards report to the company their findings

iguana · 17-11-2020 04:01PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Nobody is trying to out do anybody.

Except for maybe Sputnik V???????:p

17-11-2020 04:02PM

https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/european-medicines-agency-begins-rolling-review-modernas-mrna/

EMA begins a rolling review of Moderna vaccine.

stephenjmcd · 17-11-2020 04:06PM

iguana wrote: »

Except for maybe Sputnik V???????:p

Yeah apart from them haha

Stheno · 17-11-2020 04:16PM

Hardyn wrote: »

https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/european-medicines-agency-begins-rolling-review-modernas-mrna/

EMA begins a rolling review of Moderna vaccine.

Whats the timeframe to complete the review? Am I correct in thinking that thats the last step prior to applying for EUA?

hmmm · 17-11-2020 04:18PM

Gael23 wrote: »

If they are trying to outdo each other with efficacy that’s not good for Oxford

We've been spoiled by the 90% vaccines, but if Oxford came in at 70% would it really matter?

Alternative scenario - J&J one-dose is 70% effective with no side-effects, and two-dose is 90% effective with some side-effects. Maybe we'd only administer the one-dose version.

You could end up with the Moderna/Pfizer vaccine being given to the most vulnerable, everyone else getting a 70% vaccine, and that should be enough to get us through this.

Gael23 · 17-11-2020 04:24PM

hmmm wrote: »

We've been spoiled by the 90% vaccines, but if Oxford came in at 70% would it really matter?

Alternative scenario - J&J one-dose is 70% effective with no side-effects, and two-dose is 90% effective with some side-effects. Maybe we'd only administer the one-dose version.

You could end up with the Moderna/Pfizer vaccine being given to the most vulnerable, everyone else getting a 70% vaccine, and that should be enough to get us through this.

Can’t argue with those points but will countries choose to wait for vaccines with higher efficacy which they know are coming and fast Oxford aside?

Russman · 17-11-2020 04:43PM

Will the public get any choice as to which they take/get ?
Like, if there are 4 or 5 approved vaccines being distributed around the country, could you say “I’ll have the Pfizer one please” or could you go to a distribution centre that was giving out the one you wanted ?

CIARAN_BOYLE · 17-11-2020 04:47PM

Russman wrote: »

Will the public get any choice as to which they take/get ?
Like, if there are 4 or 5 approved vaccines being distributed around the country, could you say “I’ll have the Pfizer one please” or could you go to a distribution centre that was giving out the one you wanted ?

Probably not.

There's an eu commission documents about how if there's different vaccines with different levels of efficacy and different results in different groups governments should take factors into account when determining which vaccines to distribute.

If you aren't in a rushed group there may be a level of choice once all the vulnerable groups have been vaccinated about which vaccine to take.

Sconsey · 17-11-2020 04:49PM

Russman wrote: »

Will the public get any choice as to which they take/get ?
Like, if there are 4 or 5 approved vaccines being distributed around the country, could you say “I’ll have the Pfizer one please” or could you go to a distribution centre that was giving out the one you wanted ?

For the next 12 months or so I seriously doubt it will be a 'menu' situation. You will take what you are offered. Hopefully the HSE will provide the most appropriate choice for each person.

stephenjmcd · 17-11-2020 04:51PM

Russman wrote: »

Will the public get any choice as to which they take/get ?
Like, if there are 4 or 5 approved vaccines being distributed around the country, could you say “I’ll have the Pfizer one please” or could you go to a distribution centre that was giving out the one you wanted ?

Nah wouldn't think so.

That'll be a clinical decision you would imagine based on whatever the EMA come out with for approval, x vaccine recommended for this band of people, y vaccine for this grouping etc

Sky King · 17-11-2020 04:56PM

Russman wrote: »

Will the public get any choice as to which they take/get ?

I'd say you'll get a choice: Take it or leave it!

The decision will be made based on not just how each one works with the different groups, but logistics as well - no point sending -80C vaccines to connemara, keep them in the cities with the storage infrastructure, send long shelf life ones out the sticks. These are all feeding into the decision of who gets what

440Hertz · 17-11-2020 05:05PM

I was listening to some BBC science podcasts on the vaccines last night and the cold chain isn't as complicated as needing to be at -80C all the time. The long term storage is at those temperatures and there are various more achievable normal freezer temperatures require for local distribution.

The temperature may also be a precautionary one as they're quite new. They have been prioritising getting it ready to roll and the human safety sides of it, rather than focusing on distribution, which will in this case likely be a throw huge resources at it exercise in the EU, US and elsewhere.

There isn't likely to be much of a cold chain challenge in Ireland. The key issue would be having patients ready to vaccinate when it arrives to a location as you can't mess around with missing appointments etc due to the storage requirements.

You'd be looking a using distribution node extremely cold freezers maybe in say the acute hospitals and distribution depots and then rapid transport of vaccines at normal frozen temps to nodes for distribution relatively quickly.

No where in Ireland is significantly enough remote to make it challenging.

One of the mRNA vaccines seems to be capable of being freeze dried too, but it's neither of two recent big announcements. That's more likely to be used in places with poor access.

17-11-2020 05:11PM

Stheno wrote: »

Whats the timeframe to complete the review? Am I correct in thinking that thats the last step prior to applying for EUA?

Hopefully by the end of the month. Early December at the latest. Yes once it's complete they are able to apply for EUA.

charlie14 · 17-11-2020 05:12PM

Sky King wrote: »

I'd say you'll get a choice: Take it or leave it!

The decision will be made based on not just how each one works with the different groups, but logistics as well - no point sending -80C vaccines to connemara, keep them in the cities with the storage infrastructure, send long shelf life ones out the sticks. These are all feeding into the decision of who gets what

From my understanding Pfizer`s vaccine can be stored for up to six months at -70 but can be stored at higher temperatures (-2 to -8?) for up to 5 days.
We do have some crappy roads, but I doubt it would take 5 days to travel from any of our cities to anywhere in the "sticks"

440Hertz · 17-11-2020 05:15PM

charlie14 wrote: »

From my understanding Pfizer`s vaccine can be stored for up to six months at -70 but can be stored at higher temperatures (-2 to -8?) for up to 5 days.
We do have some crappy roads, but I doubt it would take 5 days to travel from any of our cities to anywhere in the "sticks"

In fairness Ireland has zero logistical challenges with this.

There are very few places more than 30 minutes away from a decent sized town of some sort and nowhere more than a couple of hours from one of the cities. We tend to imagine remoteness here. Compared to countries with genuinely difficult distances and terrane, Ireland and anywhere Western Europe is a walk in the park.

The issue that could crop up might be a pharmacy, local GP not managing to get the people to show up or have a chaotic plan that ends up wasting doses.

That's something we need to be EXTREMELY careful of as you can't just pop it back onto the fridge for a week.

It will need tight management and a decent level or efficiency.

funnydoggy · 17-11-2020 05:30PM

I'm not a god fearing man but I pray the HSE doesn't **** up!

tobefrank321 · 17-11-2020 05:30PM

So many stages of the vaccine trials were run in parallel, very efficient from the manufacturers.

You just know our HSE however will run everything consecutively.

In reality they should now be building or contracting deep freeze warehouse facilities and starting to train GPs and Pharmacists on potentially how to administer the vaccine, so that if it becomes available in December, they can hit the ground running. And also ask GPs to draw up a list of vulnerable patients.

Its likely though they will wait and see when the vaccine becomes available, then start looking for deep freeze facilities, then start training those who will administer it with one or more other steps in there.

Time for them to pull the finger out otherwise we could be well into spring before the first vaccine dose is administered.

440Hertz · 17-11-2020 05:49PM

If they don’t source or locate them soon, they could be waiting. There isn’t huge global bandwidth for producing cryogenic freezers on demand. They’re quite specialised and everyone will suddenly need them.

ShineOn7 · 17-11-2020 05:54PM

funnydoggy wrote: »

I'm not a god fearing man but I pray the HSE doesn't **** up!

They're the worst run health service in the developed world. What can possibly go wrong?!

I do think though, they realize the public wont accept fúckups with the rollout

Or maybe it's my positive mood today just hoping this

DrumSteve · 17-11-2020 05:59PM

Not sure why dont just roll it out like the way the rolled out testing; drive up, get your shot, drive off.

(I know not everyone can do that)

tobefrank321 · 17-11-2020 06:03PM

Having done a bit of research, its not actually Vets who'd be best to administer the vaccine as some people and media organizations have mentioned.

AI practitioners would be better qualified at dealing with ultra low termperatures for long term storage and the thawing out process.

It seems to be a reasonably complex process and mistakes are possible.

Discussion of it here

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28108

AI practioners are well used to dealing with temperatures well below -80 - in fact -80 is probably a doddle for them.

lbj666 · 17-11-2020 06:27PM

DrumSteve wrote: »

Not sure why dont just roll it out like the way the rolled out testing; drive up, get your shot, drive off.

(I know not everyone can do that)

They did fine for the most part besides the early limitations in capacity. I presume the tracking of vacines needs to be better that leave your phone number. I dunno know how they do it for flu is there a central database kept?I doubt it.

Just thinking from the PoV of travel or any other purposes where you need proof you ve been vacinated. Or is it just a receipt or yellow book approach or the new app?

charlie14 · 17-11-2020 06:43PM

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Having done a bit of research, its not actually Vets who'd be best to administer the vaccine as some people and media organizations have mentioned.

AI practitioners would be better qualified at dealing with ultra low termperatures for long term storage and the thawing out process.

It seems to be a reasonably complex process and mistakes are possible.

Discussion of it here

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28108

AI practioners are well used to dealing with temperatures well below -80 - in fact -80 is probably a doddle for them.

Many large animal veterinary practices nowadays use liquid nitrogen providing AI services. As these practices are dealing with rural communities and are very well versed in dealing with liquid nitrogen, I would look on that as two advantages to at least consider.

stephenjmcd · 17-11-2020 07:28PM

Being reported on twitter that Pfizer have achieved its safety milestones according to NY Times conference

"We're very close to announcing our final results," Pfizer chief Albert Bourla

ShineOn7 · 17-11-2020 07:42PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Being reported on twitter that Pfizer have achieved its safety milestones according to NY Times conference

"We're very close to announcing our final results," Pfizer chief Albert Bourla

What were the skeptics moaning about last week? Is it approval from the FDA or another similar authority?

COVID-19: Vaccine/antidote and testing procedures Megathread [Mod Warning - Post #1]

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