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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Comments

  • #8462
    nofools
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭nofools


    growleaves wrote: »
    'Consensus' isn't an argument.

    If the Prime Minister of Italy had made a different decision in March then maybe all of the 27 EU countries would have all made a different decision.

    There were scientists arguing against lockdowns from the offing such as Oxford University's Infectious Diseases Lab and others but mass media outlets like the Guardian and the Financial Times "informed" people that they were wrong.

    If the WHO chief's statement today that the vaccine will not end the restrictions but only be a "complement" to them becomes the official position of nations and experts then the ONLY way out of permanent lockdown will be for the mass of people to overrule them (peacefully, I would add).

    I will leave you to your deluded stance on that one. Masterful deflection, very little intellectual honesty.


  • #8463
    normanoffside
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,229 ✭✭✭✭normanoffside


    Presser on now, no talk of Hospitals, all about takeaway pints and funerals


  • #8464
    BringBackMick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭BringBackMick


    normanoffside wrote: »
    Presser on now, no talk of Hospitals, all about takeaway pints and funerals

    no surprise there then.


  • #8465
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    What has Sweden achieved that we haven't achieved?

    Can you provide the relevant data in this regard?

    They didn’t lockdown and bodies didn’t pile up in the streets.

    Their death rate is low given elderly population.


  • #8466
    Ginger n Lemon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,447 ✭✭✭Ginger n Lemon


    nofools wrote: »
    I got mixed up about the subject in question sorry. You are correct, we simply don't know.

    We can make educated guesses though.

    However, I haven't seen a single derivation for the more cancer deaths than covid argument. If i did see a convincing analysis I would naturally change my mind.

    I have asked for it a few times now. At this stage it is "safely assumed" supposition plucked out of the air.

    Its because you havent looked.

    About 450 cancers and 1,600 pre-cancers have so far gone undetected during the pause in screening services due to coronavirus, the Irish Cancer Society has said.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/some-450-cancers-missed-due-to-pause-in-screenings-covid-19-committee-told-1.4306989

    Thats to end of July.

    Can you stop being a fool now? This isnt funny.

    Whats even more horrifying is that that below article is from 7th of October. It took over 6 full months for "the HSE to compile a report into the late diagnosis and treatment of cancer, coronary care and other areas, to assess the impact the lockdown had on non-Covid illness outcomes."

    https://www.thejournal.ie/non-covid-care-report-hse-5226904-Oct2020/


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  • #8467
    nofools
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭nofools


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    They didn’t lockdown and bodies didn’t pile up in the streets.

    Their death rate is low given elderly population.

    What did they "prove" exactly?


  • #8468
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    nofools wrote: »
    What did they "prove" exactly?

    Death rate is still insignificant without lockdown.


  • #8469
    growleaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,991 ✭✭✭growleaves


    nofools wrote: »
    I will leave you to your deluded stance on that one. Masterful deflection, very little intellectual honesty.

    I haven't been dishonest. You asked for my reasoning so I explained it to you. If you can't handle it then debate with someone else.


  • #8470
    normanoffside
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,229 ✭✭✭✭normanoffside


    These journalists are utterly spineless, banging on about funerals again.
    Just asking questions based on NPHET's soundings.


  • #8471
    nofools
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭nofools


    Ginger n Lemon wrote: »
    Its because you havent looked.

    About 450 cancers and 1,600 pre-cancers have so far gone undetected during the pause in screening services due to coronavirus, the Irish Cancer Society has said.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/some-450-cancers-missed-due-to-pause-in-screenings-covid-19-committee-told-1.4306989

    Thats to end of July.

    Can you stop being a fool now? This isnt funny.

    Whats even more horrifying is that that below article is from 7th of October. It took over 6 full months for "the HSE to compile a report into the late diagnosis and treatment of cancer, coronary care and other areas, to assess the impact the lockdown had on non-Covid illness outcomes."

    https://www.thejournal.ie/non-covid-care-report-hse-5226904-Oct2020/

    Ok that isn't a derivation of how one will be worse than the other, you are just shouting numbers for drama like the papers do.

    Numbers need context and comparison.

    The healer should do no harm and if you can convince I will change my mind completely.

    I am not seeing it yet.


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  • #8472
    BeefeaterHat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 547 ✭✭✭BeefeaterHat


    nofools wrote: »
    Equally unfathomable is how you don't realise there are deaths per capita metrics.

    So you're going to ignore the massive gulf between Iceland and Brazil in regards to quality of life, quality of healthcare, gdp per capita, welfare state and just about every other metric under the sun and dumb it down to deaths of covid per capita? Ridiculous


  • #8473
    nofools
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭nofools


    growleaves wrote: »
    I haven't been dishonest. You asked for my reasoning so I explained it to you. If you can't handle it then debate with someone else.

    You are supporting the just a flu contention which is a proven lie. That is dishonest.

    To somehow think the global medical community know less than you is quite dishonest too.

    It doesn't even make you question yourself, privately? You are that confident?


  • #8474
    nofools
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭nofools


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Death rate is still insignificant without lockdown.

    How about the other factors like single occupancy or a naturally distant and careful culture Jac?

    Inversely, how do you explain the countries with significant deaths?

    You are trying to invent a unique form of jac think on this.


  • #8475
    nofools
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭nofools


    BeefeaterHat wrote: »
    So you're going to ignore the massive gulf between Iceland and Brazil in regards to quality of life, quality of healthcare, gdp per capita, welfare state and just about every other metric under the sun and dumb it down to deaths of covid per capita? Ridiculous

    You are totally missing the point in what you just said and I suspect you don't understand why it is irrelevant but to humour you I can reframe it.

    Ireland vs UK

    Broadly similar on all those aspects.

    Explain it and why lockdowns don't reduce the number of deaths as per the ridiculous point Kaiser made and you jumped in on.


  • #8476
    BeefeaterHat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 547 ✭✭✭BeefeaterHat


    BringBackMick wrote: »
    no surprise there then.

    Let's be honest if they asked Tony any hardball questions he'd probably get stroppy or find a way to dodge them.


  • #8477
    nofools
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭nofools


    BeefeaterHat wrote: »
    Let's be honest if they asked Tony any hardball questions he'd probably get stroppy or find a way to dodge them.

    No different to anyone else here


  • #8478
    growleaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,991 ✭✭✭growleaves


    nofools wrote: »
    You are supporting the just a flu contention which is a proven lie. That is dishonest.

    To somehow think the global medical community know less than you is quite dishonest too.

    As I said, Oxford University Infectious Diseases Labs and other members of the 'global medical community' had a different opinion on the usefulness of lockdowns and their opinion was overruled in the media.

    If I say that consensus is not always right that is a valid line of argument. Read a history book for historical examples of wrong actions with mass support (e.g. eugenics). An appeal to authority multiplied by a thousand isn't an unanswerable argument.

    I am allowed to form my own opinion and argue for it otherwise there is no discussion.

    If you don't like my arguments, produce your own.


  • #8479
    BeefeaterHat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 547 ✭✭✭BeefeaterHat


    nofools wrote: »
    You are totally missing the point in what you just said and I suspect you don't understand why it is irrelevant but to humour you I can reframe it.

    Ireland vs UK

    Broadly similar on all those aspects.

    Explain it and why lockdowns don't reduce the number of deaths as per the ridiculous point Kaiser made and you jumped in on.

    You're one to talk about ridiculous points comparing Brazil and Iceland. I don't know what point Kaiser was making, discuss it with him. I was making the point you can't compare one of the most developed countries on Earth with a minute population to Brazil with several of the world's largest megacities in it.


  • #8480
    Allinall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,301 ✭✭✭Allinall


    Nice upbeat story leading on the main RTE news.

    More details on the Moderna vaccine.

    Hopefully it, along with the Pfizer one will come on stream fairly quickly.


  • #8481
    BeefeaterHat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 547 ✭✭✭BeefeaterHat


    nofools wrote: »
    No different to anyone else here

    No one here is a medical professional expected to answer tough questions and face public scrutiny. Except maybe Melbourne Man. He's the NPHET we deserve


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  • #8482
    nofools
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭nofools


    growleaves wrote: »
    As I said, Oxford University Infectious Diseases Labs and other members of the 'global medical community' had a different opinion on the usefulness of lockdowns and their opinion was overruled in the media.

    If I say that consensus is not always right that is a valid line of argument. Read a history book for historical examples of wrong actions with mass support (e.g. eugenics). An appeal to authority multiplied by a thousand isn't an unanswerable argument.

    I am allowed to form my own opinion and argue for it otherwise there is no discussion.

    If you don't like my arguments, produce your own.

    I am no believer in what the herd thinks either but in this case you are provably wrong.


  • #8483
    nofools
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭nofools


    BeefeaterHat wrote: »
    You're one to talk about ridiculous points comparing Brazil and Iceland. I don't know what point Kaiser was making, discuss it with him. I was making the point you can't compare one of the most developed countries on Earth with a minute population to Brazil with several of the world's largest megacities in it.

    You can compare their policies, very easily.

    Anyway we don't need to go down that rabbit hole.

    Ireland vs UK...explain the big difference while defending the lockdowns don't work position?


  • #8484
    Ginger n Lemon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,447 ✭✭✭Ginger n Lemon


    nofools wrote: »
    I am no believer in what the herd thinks either but in this case you are provably wrong.

    You can say that again. :rolleyes:


  • #8485
    BeefeaterHat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 547 ✭✭✭BeefeaterHat


    nofools wrote: »
    You can compare their policies, very easily.

    Anyway we don't need to go down that rabbit hole.

    Ireland vs UK...explain the big difference while defending the lockdowns don't work position?

    But both the UK and Ireland locked down. Neither has done too much differently all in all. Do you not think it's easier for Iceland to implement generous covid measures considering their wealth, low population density and population number compared with Brazil?


  • #8486
    nofools
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭nofools


    BeefeaterHat wrote: »
    But both the UK and Ireland locked down. Neither has done too much differently all in all. Do you not think it's easier for Iceland to implement generous covid measures considering their wealth, low population density and population number compared with Brazil?

    You are being disingenuous to the extreme.

    Everybody knows there was a delay and difference in strictness.


  • #8487
    BeefeaterHat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 547 ✭✭✭BeefeaterHat


    nofools wrote: »
    You are being disingenuous to the extreme.

    Everybody knows there was a delay and difference in strictness.

    It was a delay of two weeks you're exaggerating


  • #8488
    nofools
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭nofools


    BeefeaterHat wrote: »
    It was a delay of two weeks you're exaggerating

    Which made all the difference


  • #8489
    Ginger n Lemon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,447 ✭✭✭Ginger n Lemon


    Another day of 500 cases. Proving level 5 does f all.

    Now the cases are high because of "covid restrictions fatigue" setting in. Every excuse in the book to justify ineffectiveness of lockdowns.

    I wouldnt be surprised if NPHET were working hard now on levels 6, 7 and 8. Whereby level 8 allows you to only leave your house to buy food.

    What an absolute circus. All while the country has 20% + unemployment and 45% + youth unemployment, and rising. :mad:


  • #8490
    Rjd2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,267 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It’s beyond a joke at this point. Covid spreading in hospitals and nursing homes due to the incompetence of Government/NPHET/HSE and we have to listen to some numpty from NPHET talking about our relationship with alcohol and the media reporting on take away pints.

    How many cases has take away pints led to?

    I suppose we should ban take away tea /coffee and hot chocolate as well?


    I don't care about takeaway pints personally whatsoever.

    However if takeaway pints are so dangerous when it comes to covid, why only now are they banned in November?

    Why did it take a viral video to get them banned, surely NPHET who have the numbers could have got them banned earlier?:o


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  • #8491
    normanoffside
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,229 ✭✭✭✭normanoffside


    Ginger n Lemon wrote: »
    Another day of 500 cases. Proving level 5 does f all.

    Now the cases are high because of "covid restrictions fatigue" setting in. Every excuse in the book to justify ineffectiveness of lockdowns.

    I wouldnt be surprised if NPHET were working hard now on levels 6, 7 and 8. Whereby level 8 allows you to only leave your house to buy food.

    What an absolute circus. All while the country has 20% + unemployment and 45% + youth unemployment, and rising. :mad:

    Level 3 was more successful. Since 5 has kicked in, cases have gone back up again.


This discussion has been closed.
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