Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings

nofools · 15-11-2020 03:15PM

walus wrote: »

Bill et. al have been heavily investing in this new vaccine technology (mRNA) since before 2015. There is no better moment than this to capitalise on this investment.

What is the motivation for an already obscenely rich man to make more money?

A man who worked in philanthropy for the past decade?

Doesn't seem that into the typical trappings of success thing either.

Not very believable

CalamariFritti · 15-11-2020 03:16PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So simple and yet so wrong.

You don't see the bigger picture.

The Mayo Clinic explains it in bite size so you can understand more fully.

Organ damage caused by COVID-19

This is not just about grandma, it's about longer term damage as well. It is unknown as to how much life span could be cut from a young person today. This is a fundamental reason for the reaction you see by governments.

But, of course, you won't take that in because "free-dumb" or whatever...

You can't possibly know what you're talking about with regards to long term damage. Simply because its not long term yet.

You're full of ifs and cans and mays to find any reason to further your fear thingy. One can tell a lie by not telling lies but by omitting truths one doesnt like. You've been at that for months now.

You're line of posting is full of sh1t quite frankly.

walus · 15-11-2020 03:16PM

nofools wrote: »

The fear of what might maybe happen vs the fear of what is happening

Show it to me, how many deaths and by what cause?

Back it up, state your case concretely

It is not what ‘might’ happen. It is happening as we speak. It’s effects are only delayed in time and so is it’s statistics. It take an open mind and higher order thinking to take these effects into consideration when devising a strategy. Something that nphet and government lack in abundance.

BeefeaterHat · 15-11-2020 03:17PM

nofools wrote: »

I never said that. I said they should be harshly criticised and mostly shamed by society.

Like drink drivers

So you don't see how shaming people into silence might shut down discussion a bit?

nofools · 15-11-2020 03:18PM

walus wrote: »

It is not what ‘might’ happen. It is happening as we speak. It’s effects are only delayed in time and so it’s statistics. It take an open mind and higher order thinking to take these effects into consideration when devising a strategy. Something that nphet and government lack in abundance.

Numbers....

Why is one fear more worthy than the other?

We need a comparative basis

nofools · 15-11-2020 03:19PM

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

So you don't see how shaming people into silence might shut down discussion a bit?

It is only a job, there is no shame to be had. You are making a problem where there is none.

Now kindly debate the topic and the points I raised or leave me alone.

nofools · 15-11-2020 03:22PM

CalamariFritti wrote: »

You can't possibly know what you're talking about with regards to long term damage. Simply because its not long term yet.

Being honest about it, that is a very fair point but I will say that we know so little that precaution is warranted.

Long covid could be a reality or a fiction, we are yet to find out.

Same with a new vaccine.

BeefeaterHat · 15-11-2020 03:22PM

nofools wrote: »

I agree with you.

I feel like you are following me around being indigent. I made loads of recent arguments that you don't want to engage with but are highlighting things from a few days ago where you feel you can get some smartarse jibe in.

Will you stop repeatedly making nonsense posts about how soft/weak/spoiled etc people are these days as you were Friday? I don't see what repeatedly putting people down achieves

walus · 15-11-2020 03:24PM

nofools wrote: »

What is the motivation for an already obscenely rich man to make more money?

A man who worked in philanthropy for the past decade?

Doesn't seem that into the typical trappings of success thing either.

Not very believable

What is not believable? That obscenely reach always find motivation to make themselves even more obscenely rich? Or that behind this vaccine stand those obscenely rich?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/martaorosz/2020/03/16/these-are-the-billionaire-investors-behind-german-drugmakers-developing-a-coronavirus-vaccine/?sh=5a94ecf1fb8d

BeefeaterHat · 15-11-2020 03:25PM

nofools wrote: »

It is only a job, there is no shame to be had. You are making a problem whtete there is none.

Now kindly debate the topic and the points I raised or leave me alone.

How is publicly shaming people 'only a job?' I'll debate whatever topics I want, not whatever agenda you formulate in your head

nofools · 15-11-2020 03:26PM

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

Will you stop repeatedly making nonsense posts about how soft/weak/spoiled etc people are these days as you were Friday? I don't see what repeatedly putting people down achieves

They are spoiled and weak.

We have the most well off comfortable standard of living ever known on this island and top ten in the world and most of it is the classic Blaise Pascal thing about man's inability to sit with him or herself in a room.

I think a lot of people live on autopilot and all this time to stop for a minute and reflect scares the **** out of them.

It is an observation not a put down.

nofools · 15-11-2020 03:28PM

walus wrote: »

What is not believable? That obscenely reach always find motivation to make themselves even more obscenely rich? Or that behind this vaccine stand those obscenely rich?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/martaorosz/2020/03/16/these-are-the-billionaire-investors-behind-german-drugmakers-developing-a-coronavirus-vaccine/?sh=5a94ecf1fb8d

Your use of the absolute term "always" for one thing.

BeefeaterHat · 15-11-2020 03:28PM

nofools wrote: »

They are spoiled and weak.

We have the most well off comfortable standard of living ever known on this island and top ten in the world and most of it is the classic Blaise Pascal thing about man's inability to sit with him or herself in a room.

I think a lot of people live on autopilot and all this time to stop for a minute and reflect scares the **** out of them.

It is an observation not a put down.

Do you include yourself in that bracket or is it just everyone else in Ireland at fault?

nofools · 15-11-2020 03:29PM

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

Do you include yourself in that bracket or is it just everyone else in Ireland at fault?

Only a minority at fault. Most people are reasonable on this topic.

walus · 15-11-2020 03:32PM

nofools wrote: »

Numbers....

Why is one fear more worthy than the other?

We need a comparative basis

Did I see it right the other day that there is a backlog of 300k cancer screenings to be conducted? Just wait for this Covid malarkey to settle and we will see some predictions how many thousands of those patients are expected to pay for this current strategy with their shortened lives. My scientific guess is that at least 2 to 4 times of the number of people who actually died of Covid.

Necro · 15-11-2020 03:32PM

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

So you don't see how shaming people into silence might shut down discussion a bit?

nofools wrote: »

Numbers....

Why is one fear more worthy than the other?

We need a comparative basis

nofools wrote: »

It is only a job, there is no shame to be had. You are making a problem where there is none.

Now kindly debate the topic and the points I raised or leave me alone.

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

How is publicly shaming people 'only a job?' I'll debate whatever topics I want, not whatever agenda you formulate in your head

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

Do you include yourself in that bracket or is it just everyone else in Ireland at fault?

Mod:

Take your bickering off this thread or you will both be threadbanned.

No need to derail the thread any more than you both already have. Take it to PM if you simply must continue this discussion.

walus · 15-11-2020 03:34PM

nofools wrote: »

Your use of the absolute term "always" for one thing.

Oh so now you are nit-picking? Wow.

Let me change it then: not ‘always’ but ‘often’. Will that help you answer those questions now?

nofools · 15-11-2020 03:35PM

walus wrote: »

Did I see it right the other day that there is a backlog of 300k cancer screenings to be conducted? Just wait for this Covid malarkey to settle and we will see some predictions how many thousands of those patience are expected to pay for this current strategy with their shortened lives. My scientific guess is that at least 2 to 4 times of the number of people who actually died of Covid.

I don't know. I know both my parents have had scans for various things recently so I am trying to figure out how much truth there is any of this at all to be honest.

Maybe someone who actually knows can inform us about current practices?

Nothing scientific about a wild guess.

nofools · 15-11-2020 03:40PM

walus wrote: »

Oh so now you are nit-picking? Wow.

Let me change it then: not ‘always’ but ‘often’. Will that help you answer those questions now?

I am nit picking on purpose because that is how conspiracy theories start. You try to force the logic by making non absolutes into absolutes to suit the weak evidence if there even is any.

"Everyone knows the sky is red and that is what why illuminati are trying to steal your white blood cells so they can live forever"

There is little evidence that Bill Gates is all that financially motivated (anymore). That is consistent with psychological work on self actualisation.. money and success sorted maybe i will help others now (which is still the highest motive for probably the majority of people, ask any carer or nurse).

hmmm · 15-11-2020 03:43PM

Perhaps we could get back closer to the topic.

If I was to predict where we will (optimistically) be with restrictions over the next while, it would be:

1. We're going to have 3 relatively effective vaccines (maybe very effective) by year end, with J&J to follow in the New Year. That means limited supply at the beginning of year, but plenty of supply mid-year.
2. The country will stay at Level 5 until December, when it will go to Level 3 (but with no or very limited indoor dining/pubs).
3. Household restrictions will be partially lifted for Christmas week.
4. Emergency use for vaccines will be approved by end of December, and they will start being given to Health-care workers first, and then the highly vulnerable groups e.g. nursing home patients & staff.
5. Level 3 to continue until at least March. Another Covid wave will be building at that time.
6. We're going to be in a race from March to June between the new wave and deploying vaccines. Hopefully the vaccines win the race and the wave subsides. If not, we will need a short and final Level 5 lockdown around the end of March/beginning of April, helped by closing schools for a little while.
7. As we head into Spring/Summer where it is easier for people to go outside, and as vaccines become more widespread, we'll step back down monthly from Level 3 to 2 & then 1 . Pubs & restaurants reopen but still with some social distancing. People will book holidays and some destinations will require either a vaccination cert or a negative test at the airport to travel.
8. By end of June we'll be seeing sparodic outbreaks which can largely be managed by track & trace. Close contacts & their contacts will be recommended the vaccine if they haven't taken it already.
9. For the second half of 2021 it'll still be recommended to wear masks when indoors, and there might be some limits on the numbers who can be indoors (e.g. weddings, pubs, nightclubs). Covid will no longer be the first item on the news. Most restaurants & pubs operating as normal with limits on numbers which won't affect most.
10. Christmas 2021 we'll be fully back to normal.

nofools · 15-11-2020 03:46PM

hmmm wrote: »

Perhaps we could get back closer to the topic.

If I was to predict where we will (optimistically) be with restrictions over the next while, it would be:

1. We're going to have 3 relatively effective vaccines (maybe very effective) by year end, with J&J to follow in the New Year. That means limited supply at the beginning of year, but plenty of supply mid-year.
2. The country will stay at Level 5 until December, when it will go to Level 3 (but with no or very limited indoor dining/pubs).
3. Household restrictions will be partially lifted for Christmas week.
4. Emergency use for vaccines will be approved by end of December, and they will start being given to Health-care workers first, and then the highly vulnerable groups e.g. nursing home patients & staff.
5. Level 3 to continue until at least March. Another Covid wave will be building at that time.
6. We're going to be in a race from March to June between the new wave and deploying vaccines. Hopefully the vaccines win the race and the wave subsides. If not, we will need a short and final Level 5 lockdown around the end of March/beginning of April, helped by closing schools for a little while.
7. As we head into Spring/Summer where it is easier for people to go outside, and as vaccines become more widespread, we'll step back down monthly from Level 3 to 2 & then 1 . Pubs & restaurants reopen but still with some social distancing. People will book holidays and some destinations will require either a vaccination cert or a negative test at the airport to travel.
8. By end of June we'll be seeing sparodic outbreaks which can largely be managed by track & trace. Close contacts & their contacts will be recommended the vaccine if they haven't taken it already.
9. For the second half of 2021 it'll still be recommended to wear masks when indoors, and there might be some limits on the numbers who can be indoors (e.g. weddings, pubs, nightclubs). Covid will no longer be the first item on the news. Most restaurants & pubs operating as normal with limits on numbers which won't affect most.
10. Christmas 2021 we'll be fully back to normal.

Fingers crossed

walus · 15-11-2020 03:48PM

nofools wrote: »

I am nit picking on purpose because that is how conspiracy theories start. You try to force the logic by making non absolutes into absolutes to suit the weak evidence if there even is any.

"Everyone knows the sky is red and that is what why illuminati are trying to steal your white blood cells so they can live forever"

There is little evidence that Bill Gates is all that financially motivated (anymore). That is consistent with psychological work on self actualisation.. money and success sorted maybe i will help others now (which is still the highest motive for probably the majority of people, ask any carer or nurse).

It is not conspiracy theory. It is a fact as per the article I mentioned earlier. Moderna have invested over 450m euros in this technology over the past 5 years. This vaccine will come out and must sell. The strategies implemented by most governments are relying on it.

nofools · 15-11-2020 03:55PM

walus wrote: »

It is not conspiracy theory. It is a fact as per the article I mentioned earlier. Moderna have invested over 450m euros in this technology over the past 5 years. This vaccine will come out and must sell. The strategies implemented by most governments are relying on it.

See now you are interchanging "facts" are you not. The basis of the argument was the universal immoral greed of all billionaires just 5 minutes ago?

Heaven forbid that healthcare companies invest in R + D.

This is what I am talking about, superimposing imagined motives on the already explainable.

It is like a version of the never assume malice for what can be explained by stupidity maxim.

Stheno · 15-11-2020 04:01PM

hmmm wrote: »

Perhaps we could get back closer to the topic.

If I was to predict where we will (optimistically) be with restrictions over the next while, it would be:

1. We're going to have 3 relatively effective vaccines (maybe very effective) by year end, with J&J to follow in the New Year. That means limited supply at the beginning of year, but plenty of supply mid-year.
2. The country will stay at Level 5 until December, when it will go to Level 3 (but with no or very limited indoor dining/pubs).
3. Household restrictions will be partially lifted for Christmas week.
4. Emergency use for vaccines will be approved by end of December, and they will start being given to Health-care workers first, and then the highly vulnerable groups e.g. nursing home patients & staff.
5. Level 3 to continue until at least March. Another Covid wave will be building at that time.
6. We're going to be in a race from March to June between the new wave and deploying vaccines. Hopefully the vaccines win the race and the wave subsides. If not, we will need a short and final Level 5 lockdown around the end of March/beginning of April, helped by closing schools for a little while.
7. As we head into Spring/Summer where it is easier for people to go outside, and as vaccines become more widespread, we'll step back down monthly from Level 3 to 2 & then 1 . Pubs & restaurants reopen but still with some social distancing. People will book holidays and some destinations will require either a vaccination cert or a negative test at the airport to travel.
8. By end of June we'll be seeing sparodic outbreaks which can largely be managed by track & trace. Close contacts & their contacts will be recommended the vaccine if they haven't taken it already.
9. For the second half of 2021 it'll still be recommended to wear masks when indoors, and there might be some limits on the numbers who can be indoors (e.g. weddings, pubs, nightclubs). Covid will no longer be the first item on the news. Most restaurants & pubs operating as normal with limits on numbers which won't affect most.
10. Christmas 2021 we'll be fully back to normal.

Id agree with that

stephenjmcd · 15-11-2020 04:03PM

Stheno wrote: »

Id agree with that

Likewise. Seems fairly realistic to me

darconio · 15-11-2020 04:39PM

hmmm wrote: »

That's a very long post, but your opening statement is clearly false. The relatively low number of deaths is due to the measures we have taken to reduce spread. If we let this virus spread with no restrictions, we'd have more deaths.

That's so obvious a point that if you're saying it's not the case then it's very hard to take the rest of your post seriously.

Not sure why people keep ignoring the fact that the death toll was inflated to justify the lockdown

https://www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/fi...9-epidemic.pdf

As of mid April, in line with World Health Organization (WHO) guidance, death reporting was extended to include deaths both in patients with probable COVID-19 in addition to deaths among confirmed cases.
By definition, such deaths must result from a clinically compatible illness, in a probable or confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID-19 (for example, trauma).

zf0wqv9oemuasj · 15-11-2020 04:49PM

You do realise the mayo clinic is one of the most respect sources there is?

The total dismissal of the serious effects of the covid virus both from the virus and after by the anti-lockdown posters is absolutely astonishing. I must admit that this thread is a very strange place, I’m not sure I’ve seen anywhere else with so many clueless people gathered in an anti-lockdown group think, with a good dusting of anti-vaccine thrown in!

Thinking they know better than experts all over the world, thinking they know better than governments and so on. It would be funny were it not so serious that these opinions are out there

Lundstram wrote: »

The virus is not serious in the slightest for 99.5% of the population. Have you evidence backing up your claim that the virus has long term affects or are you one of those people who throw around this stupid "long Covid" phrase without any evidence?

There's many experts out there claiming this virus is been over-stated and reactions to it by governments have been disproportionate.

Those people aren't invited onto national TV or radio stations, though. They don't fit the narrative so we don't hear from them.

We hear from Sam "120k deaths" McDonkey alot though.

Alot.

Sorry I’m quoting my own post above as it appears to have disappeared from forum for some reasons??? Would anyone know how or why that would happen?

There is lots of evidence out there from reputable sources showing significant and common long term issues from covid. On the other hand most of the anti-restriction, covid is harmless is generally from very questionable sources. There are regularly anti vaccine sources quoted in this thread for example and I am only reading this thread for a few weeks I can imagine it is common for months and months.

Why do the posters think they know better than experts all over the world, governments all over the world and so on? They are acting like we are an outlier, while in fact we are doing the same necessary steps as most counties and those that are not have lots of covid issues.

darconio · 15-11-2020 04:54PM

charlie14 wrote: »

My first (and really only thought) is that the news on vaccines appears to have raised the levels of attempts at misinformation and conspiracy theories by anti-vaxxers to new levels of desperation.

I don't really get your comment, you asked me:

charlie14 wrote: »

What is going to hapen with this virus in the long term without vaccines.
Do you think it will just disappear ?

To which I have answered asking you: What happened to the spanish Flu? Please could you answer? Is it even remotely a possibility that Covid could disappear?

Then you dismissed the fact that the vaccine could have side effect:

charlie14 wrote: »

Do people actually know so little about vaccines, or indeed any medical product, that the do not know they have to go through verification by independent bodies, (E.U. it`s the E.M.A. U.S.A. it`s the F.D.A. and so on) on their safety and efficiency claims before they will receive a licence. These vaccines are no different

To which I have provided you examples that Fda, and all those authorities, in the past have provided licences to medicine that were actually harmful
You can dismiss conveniently everything as a conspiracy theory, the facts are that, from this situation, pharma companies will gain billions.

MelbourneMan · 15-11-2020 05:01PM

hmmm wrote: »

Perhaps we could get back closer to the topic.

If I was to predict where we will (optimistically) be with restrictions over the next while, it would be:

1. We're going to have 3 relatively effective vaccines (maybe very effective) by year end, with J&J to follow in the New Year. That means limited supply at the beginning of year, but plenty of supply mid-year.
2. The country will stay at Level 5 until December, when it will go to Level 3 (but with no or very limited indoor dining/pubs).
3. Household restrictions will be partially lifted for Christmas week.
4. Emergency use for vaccines will be approved by end of December, and they will start being given to Health-care workers first, and then the highly vulnerable groups e.g. nursing home patients & staff.
5. Level 3 to continue until at least March. Another Covid wave will be building at that time.
6. We're going to be in a race from March to June between the new wave and deploying vaccines. Hopefully the vaccines win the race and the wave subsides. If not, we will need a short and final Level 5 lockdown around the end of March/beginning of April, helped by closing schools for a little while.
7. As we head into Spring/Summer where it is easier for people to go outside, and as vaccines become more widespread, we'll step back down monthly from Level 3 to 2 & then 1 . Pubs & restaurants reopen but still with some social distancing. People will book holidays and some destinations will require either a vaccination cert or a negative test at the airport to travel.
8. By end of June we'll be seeing sparodic outbreaks which can largely be managed by track & trace. Close contacts & their contacts will be recommended the vaccine if they haven't taken it already.
9. For the second half of 2021 it'll still be recommended to wear masks when indoors, and there might be some limits on the numbers who can be indoors (e.g. weddings, pubs, nightclubs). Covid will no longer be the first item on the news. Most restaurants & pubs operating as normal with limits on numbers which won't affect most.
10. Christmas 2021 we'll be fully back to normal.

Hello. That is a good read and I commend it. It could also be added to the key posts, along with some of my own, as primer reading for contributors before they post further on this boards.ie.

It agrees with my analysis, and good to see this perspective starting to sink in.

I will concede that there has been a certain reluctance to have this outlook conveyed to the wider public. So important now that all communication channels are exploited so that this correct roadmap is understood and widely conformed to. I urge all to play a role in communicating it, whether through the official media, but as we are increasingly seeing, through the social media as well. Please use your Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat, etc and the likes of these chat forums, to inform and correct those not aware of this, or do not follow the mainstream media.

walus · 15-11-2020 05:04PM

nofools wrote: »

See now you are interchanging "facts" are you not. The basis of the argument was the universal immoral greed of all billionaires just 5 minutes ago?

Heaven forbid that healthcare companies invest in R + D.

This is what I am talking about, superimposing imagined motives on the already explainable.

It is like a version of the never assume malice for what can be explained by stupidity maxim.

It is you who is twisting facts into arguments about the ‘obscenely rich’. In my original post on the investors standing behind the mRNA technology I simply said:

walus wrote: »

Bill et. al have been heavily investing in this new vaccine technology (mRNA) since before 2015. There is no better moment than this to capitalise on this investment.

In summary I presented a statement of facts and later supported by an article that proves the same. Period.

You have made unnecessary and false assumptions that created all this noise.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings