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J. K. Rowling is cancelled because she is a T.E.R.F [ADMIN WARNING IN POST #1]

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    #5942
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Not really - its just propaganda that the existence of trans people threatens the existence of LGB people. I've noticed that lately - the argument boils down to "trans people existing is homophobia" - Its a cheap divisive absurd tactic.

    Says a man sticking up for other men and not giving a **** for lesbians.


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    #5943
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,980 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    Says a man sticking up for other men and not giving a **** for lesbians.

    Ah ok. You're not even bothering with "trans women" anymore. Says it all.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #5944
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Ah ok. You're not even bothering with "trans women" anymore. Says it all.

    Well, here’s the thing - the thought police don’t exist. I will call anybody ‘she’ who wants to be but if a transgender woman looks like a man, I will find it hard to see past that because it’s what my eyes are telling me. Transgender women are forever male and people might well notice - granted, there will examples where it is less obvious.


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    #5945
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Ah ok. You're not even bothering with "trans women" anymore. Says it all.

    The more that radical trans-women insist on pushing the idea that they must not be distinguished in any way from actual women, the more those of us who were initially not bothered about referring to men in dresses as "she" will stand up and say we have had enough of this bullshyt.

    It is not benign when men are using it to "win" women's sports, it's not benign when damaging medical procedures are being pushed on children, it's not benign when womens shelters and sex abuse clinics are being targetted for not allowing men in frocks free access to vulnerable abused women.

    Trans is a lifestyle choice, nothing more. Wear whatever you like, change your name to whatever you like, refer to yourself with whatever invented pronoun nonsense you like but when your lifestyle crosses over into behaviour that is harmful to others then you can fukk right off.

    A trans-women is a man, male, he, him. Get a cert to say otherwise; nope still a man, wear womens clothes; still a man, take female hormones; still a man, get surgery to replace male appendages with facsimiles of female organs; still a man with extreme body modification.


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    #5946
    excludedbin
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭excludedbin


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    There’s no pleasing them.
    Said on a thread that's now nearly four hundred pages long of constant, petulant outrage from terfs. Truly the largest collection of 'self-aware wolves' on the entire site.
    Vic_08 wrote: »
    lifestyle choice
    And still hard at it, repackaging old homophobic insults for use on the new target. This thread is like a microcosm of the long-playing record that is the modern rise in terfs simply changing homophobic arguments and insults for the next most socially acceptable target.

    Still, I must admit to being curious as to what they'll move onto once trans people become more accepted. They seem to be largely weaponised by the far-right, screaming about 'degeneracy', these days so probably immigrants (get some new material!) or Jews (boring! old hat!). Watch this space!


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    #5947
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Is a woman anyone who says they are a woman?


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    #5948
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Is a woman anyone who says they are a woman?

    To nutjobs yeah.

    To the rest of us - no, unless you were a female child.


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    #5949
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Not look for you to answer that Gervais08!

    I'm looking for someone to openly agree to the statement that a woman is anyone who says they are a women.


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    #5950
    speelunker22
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭speelunker22


    excludedbin wrote: »
    Said on a thread that's now nearly four hundred pages long of constant, petulant outrage from terfs. Truly the largest collection of 'self-aware wolves' on the entire site.


    And still hard at it, repackaging old homophobic insults for use on the new target. This thread is like a microcosm of the long-playing record that is the modern rise in terfs simply changing homophobic arguments and insults for the next most socially acceptable target.

    Still, I must admit to being curious as to what they'll move onto once trans people become more accepted. They seem to be largely weaponised by the far-right, screaming about 'degeneracy', these days so probably immigrants (get some new material!) or Jews (boring! old hat!). Watch this space!

    So while you condemn a whole "threadful" of people for using repackaged homophobic insults you then go on to use the insulting term TERF twice and then equate a large group of people with diverse opinions on the subject with anti-semites and racists.

    I'll be honest I have no idea what a "self-aware wolf" is supposed to be but I'm sure you will educate me!


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    #5951
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    excludedbin wrote: »
    Said on a thread that's now nearly four hundred pages long of constant, petulant outrage from terfs. Truly the largest collection of 'self-aware wolves' on the entire site.


    And still hard at it, repackaging old homophobic insults for use on the new target. This thread is like a microcosm of the long-playing record that is the modern rise in terfs simply changing homophobic arguments and insults for the next most socially acceptable target.

    Still, I must admit to being curious as to what they'll move onto once trans people become more accepted. They seem to be largely weaponised by the far-right, screaming about 'degeneracy', these days so probably immigrants (get some new material!) or Jews (boring! old hat!). Watch this space!

    You talk about people regurgitating things and then come out with this old nonsense. :D Yes, excludedbin, yes, we’re aaaalll hard right wing or influenced by same. Whatever you need to tell yourself.

    As ever, all you have are insults because you can’t actually tackle the points people are making. Bring it, I say. I’m happy for yours and other’s lack of coherence to be highlighted. Knock yourselves out.


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    #5952
    keano_afc
    Registered Users Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    excludedbin wrote: »
    Said on a thread that's now nearly four hundred pages long of constant, petulant outrage from terfs. Truly the largest collection of 'self-aware wolves' on the entire site.


    And still hard at it, repackaging old homophobic insults for use on the new target. This thread is like a microcosm of the long-playing record that is the modern rise in terfs simply changing homophobic arguments and insults for the next most socially acceptable target.

    Still, I must admit to being curious as to what they'll move onto once trans people become more accepted. They seem to be largely weaponised by the far-right, screaming about 'degeneracy', these days so probably immigrants (get some new material!) or Jews (boring! old hat!). Watch this space!


    I still get a good laugh out of this. How long have you worked at the Journal?


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    #5953
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,723 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    It's not a lifestyle choice though. That's fairly insulting.


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    #5954
    The White Wolf
    Registered Users Posts: 5,168 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    I don't think anyone has been weaponised by the far right in this debacle featuring JK and trans people. Just the usual unfortunate reality of the left imploding upon each other.

    Both sides of the debate were united for example when the *** had that abhorrent headline about her ex.


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    #5955
    mohawk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭mohawk


    excludedbin wrote: »
    Said on a thread that's now nearly four hundred pages long of constant, petulant outrage from terfs. Truly the largest collection of 'self-aware wolves' on the entire site.
    Are you okay? This posts reads very angry.

    First of all not everyone on this thread is a feminist and the F in TERF stands for feminist.
    As for you saying the thread is full of outrage well I admit I am outraged when people who underwent male puberty take part in women’s sports, I am also similarly outraged when the word woman is replaced with things like vulva people, or birthing body or similar ****e that reduces us down to just a body part or bodily function. I don’t see the word man being replaced with sperm producer or anything else as ludicrous. Which makes me think the change in language isn’t really about inclusion.
    I find is disconcerting that when it comes to children that under watchful waiting which was the traditional approach 80% came to accept their biological body. An affirmative approach is now implemented because of pressure from lobby groups even though it’s not backed by science. The affirmative approach can mean a lifetime of requiring medical care, removal of healthy organs or infertility and who knows what unknown side effects there will be. Majority of trans adults never transition and yet most children/teenagers go down the transition route.
    I also question why there is such a dramatic increase in teenage girls identifying as trans and why can’t we study this to see what’s causing it without being called transphobic.


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    #5956
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,980 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    jam_mac_jam wrote: »
    It's not a lifestyle choice though. That's fairly insulting.

    Yep. One of many insults on this thread.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #5957
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Yep. One of many insults on this thread.

    Indeed. Most of the insults have come from yourself, excludedbin et al. You’re right, the thread is brimming with insults.


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    #5958
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    Someone recently made a point elsewhere that the affirmation approach goes out of the way to enable (for example) a boy child to become a girl via pharmaceuticals and surgery instead of going out of the way and enabling that boy child to become comfortable in their given natural body.
    Almost as if a transitioned body or transgender state is somehow considered superior, more favourable or more desirable to the natal state.

    There is a lot to think about in that. The transitioned body suffers terribly and hardly any mental health improvement is recorded. The sexual function of the body is thwarted. Potency and fertility reduced or eliminated. Brain, bone development impeded. A lifetime of pain, drugs, morbidity

    Why does this clinical goal supercede the goal of effortful accommodation to natal reality?


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    #5959
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,104 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    mohawk wrote: »
    First of all not everyone on this thread is a feminist
    *Sticks hand up* :D
    I don’t see the word man being replaced with sperm producer or anything else as ludicrous.
    Oh no doubt someone somewhere is coming out with that nonsense alright, but the main reason is it's almost exclusively M-F Transexuals that are the mouthpieces coming out with this guff and the more likely to be angry and frankly bloody weird about it. You almost never hear from F-M Trans folks at all.
    I find is disconcerting that when it comes to children that under watchful waiting which was the traditional approach 80% came to accept their biological body. An affirmative approach is now implemented because of pressure from lobby groups even though it’s not backed by science.
    Science has largely gone out the window with this stuff M and sadly that includes too many within medicine too.
    I also question why there is such a dramatic increase in teenage girls identifying as trans and why can’t we study this to see what’s causing it without being called transphobic.
    There have been dramatic increases in self harm and eating disorders with teenage girls over the last 30 years. One hypothesis given is the rise in the influence of social media and working out one's identity and needing to fit into a community as adolescents do, doubly so if they feel like they're "odd". Social bullying doesn't help, which has gone up with social media. Although similar can affect young boys, young girls appear to be much more prone to this peer driven stuff. EG If one girl in a group comes out as Trans more come out within that group compared to background. That isn't seen to nearly the same degree with boys. Trans is a "new" and quite public trend at the moment so it stands to reason it would figure more.

    A few years back many if not most of the same researchers and doctors held it was a body dysmorphia condition, then that shifted. It will almost certainly shift again as more research is brought to bear. And if that research shows that in many cases it's a side condition of say autism that often passes, or indeed an adolescent "phase", that won't be much help to those buggered up by years of hormones or surgery.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #5960
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,104 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Gruffalux wrote: »
    Why does this clinical goal supercede the goal of effortful accommodation to natal reality?
    Because that doesn't fit the recently established credo, even when said credo is all over the place in contradiction. On the one hand gender is seen as a social construct, on the other it's inborn. Make your mind up.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #5961
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    Regarding the lifestyle choice remark I think there is no need to be cruel. There do seem to be people who have terrible gender dysphoria just as there are other body dysphorias. The breadth of human experience is vast. Raymond Blanchard and Kenneth Zucker who have worked compassionately for decades with people who have dysphoria recognise there is a portion of people who genuinely benefit from transition to cope with their dreadful dysphoria. I believe them. It should be a decision taken in mature adulthood as it has huge health implications.

    But there is also a lifestyle element for a certain portion of people who call themselves transgender. The umbrella is large. Fetishism is included. Autogynophelia. Various queer identities which can be very fluid, changing, fashion conscious, whimsical, etc. Transgenderism is not always some urgent existential drive - not at all as it is understood nowadays.

    I am going to link to an article by Graham Linegan again. Written yesterday. https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/ashton-challenor-the-boy-who-disappeared

    I have mentioned Aimee Challenor before. You might think what has this one strange example got to do with anything? But Aimee was a very vocal public figure fighting for self ID as a reasonably senior figure in the UK Green Party. That is relevant. Other people mentioned in the article have influential roles in organisations. There is a huge element of lifestyle choice among the characters in that article. It is absolutely not the case for many with gender dysphoria but we cannot ignore these prominent vocal and highly disruptive examples and say again and again "that never happens".


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    #5962
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Non-binary feels quite "lifestyley"


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    #5963
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Not look for you to answer that Gervais08!

    I'm looking for someone to openly agree to the statement that a woman is anyone who says they are a women.

    Apols!!!


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    #5964
    derfderf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭derfderf


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Non-binary feels quite "lifestyley"

    Should they compete in men's or women's sports? Which prison do they go to?


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    #5965
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    derfderf wrote: »
    Should they compete in men's or women's sports? Which prison do they go to?

    Non binary is a load of attention seeking nonsense. It should not be confused with transsexualism which is an actual real issue.


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    #5966
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    It’s not up to you to buy it or not. If somebody doesn’t want to be called ‘cis’, the decent thing to do is to not call them by it, like with any unwanted moniker.

    Not when getting rid of the "unwanted moniker" is part of a PR campaign to prevent discussion.

    It's not that cis people have a problem with the word cis. TERFs have a problem with any word that describes them as a group. It's been repeatedly stated on this thread by TERFs that their issue with the word cis is that there shouldn't be a word to describe them as a subgroup of.women as they believe themselves to be the only group describable by the word "woman".

    In this case no.word would be acceptable to them if we replaced cis with it.

    In the case of genuinely offensive words to describe groups of people such as racist or homophobic slurs, the people who are targets of these actually offensive words will be happy to be referred to as a group and there are acceptable words to describe them. Also, they didn't just randomly take a dislike to these words. The words have been used as part of a loooong history of oppression.

    But if someone who is trying to curb the right of trans people doesn't like a word I use to describe them...tough. If they were an opressed group and the word had genuinely been used as a slur, then I wouldn't use it. But I'm not capitulating to their PR efforts to play the victim.


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    #5967
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    excludedbin wrote: »
    Said on a thread that's now nearly four hundred pages long of constant, petulant outrage from terfs. Truly the largest collection of 'self-aware wolves' on the entire site.


    And still hard at it, repackaging old homophobic insults for use on the new target. This thread is like a microcosm of the long-playing record that is the modern rise in terfs simply changing homophobic arguments and insults for the next most socially acceptable target.

    Still, I must admit to being curious as to what they'll move onto once trans people become more accepted. They seem to be largely weaponised by the far-right, screaming about 'degeneracy', these days so probably immigrants (get some new material!) or Jews (boring! old hat!). Watch this space!

    I'm not sure they'll move onto another group. I think they'll become more mired in conspiracy theory. Maybe move on to something like anti-vaccinations.

    If you don't post in this thread and let TERFs talk to each other it really descends into some quite paranoid bizarre stuff. Take a look at the mumsnet anti trans forum and there's people who have not been affected by trans people at all saying they are suicidal over the "Erasure of women". Unhappiness has to find a target, and it's not always hate. Sometimes it's just plain old paranoia.


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    #5968
    Rothko
    Registered Users Posts: 12,846 ✭✭✭✭Rothko


    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    Non binary is a load of attention seeking nonsense.

    Completely and utterly agree.


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    #5969
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    I'm not sure they'll move onto another group.

    Wow. Talk about projection, inferiority complex, victim complex and more.


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    #5970
    y0ssar1an22
    Registered Users Posts: 16,352 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    what are the criteria these days? in all seriousness, can i ID as an attack helicopter? and if not, why not?


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    #5971
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    y0ssar1an22 wrote: »
    what are the criteria these days? in all seriousness, can i ID as an attack helicopter? and if not, why not?
    No because an attack helicopter has defined parameters. 'Man' or 'Woman' are just amorphous interchangable blobs with no particular characteristics.


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