Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings

Ginger n Lemon · 08-11-2020 10:16AM

The Government has been accused of stacking the odds against taxpayers who exercise their right to appeal a tax bill.

Under the unheralded measure in the Finance Bill, Revenue will no longer pay interest to taxpayers who win an appeal on money they have paid in advance to the tax authorities.

The move comes as thousands of businesses across the State struggle to survive.

Where a taxpayer appeals a tax bill and loses they are liable to interest charges of up to 10 per cent. To avoid this, many taxpayers make an up-front payment on the understanding that it will be returned should they win their appeal. Under current law Revenue pays interest in those circumstances.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/government-accused-of-stacking-odds-against-taxpayers-1.4402704

Things are that bad. Scraping the barrel here, we ll be reaching our hand out to IMF very soon. But thats alright, Ireland is "getting it right" :rolleyes:

CruelSummer · 08-11-2020 10:32AM

nofools wrote: »

We could be living the life of riley now if we listened to him perhaps. Just a thought.

The disconnect between people hating restrictions and trying to earn us more of them bugs me.

Additionally many of the common challenges at the time have been proven wrong and we are now stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Great job

Also there is no such thing as a functional economy while trying to live with some restrictions, any economic data from any country will show you that.

This post is ridiculous. Where are your facts and figures to back up your points?
Emotive phrases like ‘We could be doing anything we wanted right now’ with a absolutely no proof just doesn’t cut it.
It’s very unhealthy to blame sections of society when the Government have basically demanded a permanent change to our human behaviour, closed thousands of businesses, and worse still NPHET at their press conferences offer no light or hope at the end of this endless tunnel of doom. There are many people reluctant to come forward for testing due to the attitudes above of vilification.
WHO have recommended lockdowns shouldn’t be used as a strategy to control Covid, the consequences of them need to be examined.

acequion · 08-11-2020 10:45AM

manniot2 wrote: »

How can you claim Ireland is getting it right? Yes you can count the number of cases, but have you the ability of doing a cost benefit exercise of getting these cases low? And I don’t mean economically. You can’t, and therefore you don’t know if Ireland is doing something right. Nobody knows, and we won’t for a number of years.

I think most people on this forum are looking for a proportionate response to this virus, in this country. And for the last 8 months our response has been out of proportion with others.

That is it in a nutshell. Proportion. Our response has been out of proportion with others and out of proportion to the threat.

The majority here who complain about excessive restrictions are not saying "just let's all get on with life as before and let the virus rip" They want proportion. They want balance and they want the Govt to provide that proportion by balancing all needs and all interests. But the Govt, the new Govt that we voted in ironically just before all this, have really let us down by allowing NPHET to call all the shots.

I have to live with the virus and expose myself, and by extension my family, to risk every day as a frontline worker, a teacher in a large secondary school where there have been cases. And of course it makes me nervous. But so far so good. The tiny outbreak was quickly contained and not one staff member caught it. So I'm happy to go to work, would absolutely hate to be stuck at home on PUP as so many are. So imo a proportionate response to this second wave would be level 3 and down to a level 2+ as soon as possible. Let people operate as the front line have to. Let them get on with their work but with the strict restrictions of masks, distancing, constant sanitising and limited numbers in place. If teachers all over the country are doing it and doing it safely, why not other workers?

That for me would be reacting with balance and proportion.

CalamariFritti · 08-11-2020 10:58AM

john4321 wrote: »

What is that statement?

The one you highlighted.

CalamariFritti · 08-11-2020 11:01AM

nofools wrote: »

I don't know, step 1 is not making things worse

My point is that all the talk of just a flu and useless lockdowns is beyond ridiculous at this stage of the game and needs to stop. It is harmful.

We need to take our medicine

You dont get to tell people what needs to stop.

iamwhoiam · 08-11-2020 11:10AM

I am finding the 5kms rule tough to adhere too .We have 4 or 5 parks within that range which is great .But they are packed now and car parks full .I am not for a minute blaming people as they also want to get out walking . But I know for a fact that of we went beyond the 5kms and to a beach we love we would have far more distance and room to allow that . During the phase when we stayed in our counties we often went there and not a soul within 15 metres of us at any stage .

mean gene · 08-11-2020 11:13AM

to be fair at least they don't have us wearing striped pyjamas

CalamariFritti · 08-11-2020 11:15AM

The 5km rule is absolutely nuts so is the banning of individual outdoor sports.

acequion · 08-11-2020 11:16AM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I am finding the 5kms rule tough to adhere too .We have 4 or 5 parks within that range which is great .But they are packed now and car parks full .I am not for a minute blaming people as they also want to get out walking . But I know for a fact that of we went beyond the 5kms and to a beach we love we would have far more distance and room to allow that . During the phase when we stayed in our counties we often went there and not a soul within 15 metres of us at any stage .

Another example of how stupid some of those restrictions are. Small wonder people are frustrated and fed up. And that's only the thin end of the edge.

CalamariFritti · 08-11-2020 11:21AM

Masks is another one of those populistic pseudo science measures. Zero actual evidence. Plenty of empirical evidence from before masks and after masks that they make no difference whatsoever. But masks are the new symbol of being 'with the program'.

Extra pats on the head for wearing them outdoors.

Sammy2012 · 08-11-2020 11:21AM

I am really finding it hard this time. I went into Dunnes yesterday to buy long sleeve tops to wear to work! Teacher who is working in the cold. The ones I want are not available online. But I couldn't get them. But I could get any amount of Christmas cushions or toilet brushes or selection boxes. What a load of nonsense! The weekend weather isn't helping either. It is lovely during the week and the weekends are not great! Just feeling a bit fed up of it all at the moment!

iamwhoiam · 08-11-2020 11:30AM

acequion wrote: »

Another example of how stupid some of those restrictions are. Small wonder people are frustrated and fed up. And that's only the thin end of the edge.

I heard from a friend in Wales about their daft rules . They cannot have any visitors to their home or garden . Cannot see family or grandchildren in the garden or the house . But they are allowed be with 6 others in a pub or restaurant . Now this friend has been avoiding public places , shopping online etc
But if she wants to see her family and the kids they will have to meet up in a public restaurant or pub .
She has a big garden with comfy chairs and a heater but No she has to meet them in a blessed pub for now

Penfailed · 08-11-2020 11:32AM

JRant wrote: »

Didn't you hear, COVID is the smartest virus ever known to man.

It can tell the time.
It knows whether you're buying essential items or not.
It can tell what distance you travelled from your home no less.
Heck, it even knows if you've ordered a meal over €9 in value.

This stuff has been spouted loads of times in here. It's childish.

bush · 08-11-2020 11:32AM

Anyone who sticks to the 5km rule is a harmless ejit, no offence

CalamariFritti · 08-11-2020 11:48AM

Penfailed wrote: »

This stuff has been spouted loads of times in here. It's childish.

It is and it isn't.

This is a macro problem and needs to be addressed by macro solutions not by nonsensical micromanagement. All the latter does is make people question all of it. Both outbreak and counter measures have become a political plaything.

FintanMcluskey · 08-11-2020 12:01PM

Penfailed wrote: »

This stuff has been spouted loads of times in here. It's childish.

It’s not childish it’s science.

I went for a few drinks with friends over the Summer, we shared a main portion of chicken wings for €12.50 and none of us caught the virus.

They had a starter portion for €6.50 on the menu and I dread to think what would have happened if we went for that option

Penfailed · 08-11-2020 12:07PM

acequion wrote: »

That is it in a nutshell. Proportion. Our response has been out of proportion with others and out of proportion to the threat.

The majority here who complain about excessive restrictions are not saying "just let's all get on with life as before and let the virus rip" They want proportion. They want balance and they want the Govt to provide that proportion by balancing all needs and all interests. But the Govt, the new Govt that we voted in ironically just before all this, have really let us down by allowing NPHET to call all the shots.

I have to live with the virus and expose myself, and by extension my family, to risk every day as a frontline worker, a teacher in a large secondary school where there have been cases. And of course it makes me nervous. But so far so good. The tiny outbreak was quickly contained and not one staff member caught it. So I'm happy to go to work, would absolutely hate to be stuck at home on PUP as so many are. So imo a proportionate response to this second wave would be level 3 and down to a level 2+ as soon as possible. Let people operate as the front line have to. Let them get on with their work but with the strict restrictions of masks, distancing, constant sanitising and limited numbers in place. If teachers all over the country are doing it and doing it safely, why not other workers?

That for me would be reacting with balance and proportion.

The thing is though, you're happy with level 3 moving to level 2 but not everyone is. When we were in level 3, many on here were saying that it was too restrictive and an over reaction. Everyone has differing opinions on what level we should be at. Most of the people complaining about excessive restrictions don't seem to want any restrictions...hence the 'let 'er rip' comments.

08-11-2020 12:09PM

CruelSummer wrote: »

Wrong on what exactly? NPHET did not take the advice of the ECDC over the summer. We did our own thing and were an outlier. Tomás Ryan (a neuroscientist) spent months on the RTÉ airwaves re our Covid response pushing one idea only - zero Covid. Along with McConkey, Killeen, Staines and others. Anyone who offered a different opinion in the medical community, eg Dr Feeley were sacked.
Do you not think strategies should be challenged?

I understand the need for restrictions and control over how the virus spreads. However we’ve gone completely OTT (to put it mildly) in our responses.
Everything should be open with restrictions & guidelines in place to allow our economy & society function. If a wave comes along, like we’ve just experienced, level 3 plus should be used. These restrictions should be dropped / lessened accordingly as new treatments come on stream for the virus.
I also posted many months ago re our State taking a major gamble in waiting for a vaccine like it was going to solve everything while putting ourselves into billions of euro of debt & continuing to stop the economy functioning. We put ourselves at the mercy of international investors & their demands to keep our country on life support & bills paid, while also pouring billions into purchasing vaccines which may not work to the degree we need them to.

NPHET's purpose is to hide the fact that the Irish Health Service is not fit for purpose and in time of greatest need the Health Service is unable to step up and treat people when the system comes under load.
The Health Service is costing in purchasing power terms per Capita as much as Germany's or France's but is unable to perform at the same level when under load. It simply doesn't have the ability to provide and man ICU beds or test/trace effectively.
NPHET would prefer to lock down the Country to hide the failures of the Health Service.
They will run up the national debt, drive thousands of businesses to the wall and restrict free travel/personal liberties in their attempts to hide their poor performance.
After this crisis the entire Health Service must be(but won't be) rebuilt in to something which is actually fit for purpose.
I don't align myself alongside the likes of CalamariFritti who deny that masks can and do capture corona laden water droplets but he and his are the loudest to complain. They repulse the normal impartial observer and are actually counter-productive. This causes the underlying problem to be ignored which is a lot of Health Professionals are protecting their income while never addressing the dysfunctional health service and diverting attention so that they can continue as they are at present delivering poor and expensive outcomes for the Public who must use their services.

FintanMcluskey · 08-11-2020 12:10PM

Penfailed wrote: »

The thing is though, you're happy with level 3 moving to level 2 but not everyone is. When we were in level 3, many on here were saying that it was too restrictive and an over reaction. Everyone has differing opinions on what level we should be at. Most of the people complaining about excessive restrictions don't seem to want any restrictions...hence the 'let 'er rip' comments.

Social distance???

Masks??

They are either useless measures, or they are only effective when coupled with hairdressers and retail outlets shut.

Penfailed · 08-11-2020 12:12PM

CalamariFritti wrote: »

It is and it isn't.

This is a macro problem and needs to be addressed by macro solutions not by nonsensical micromanagement. All the latter does is make people question all of it. Both outbreak and counter measures have become a political plaything.

It is a macro solution though. It's a blanket ban on non-essential items. That's why it's created these anomalies in certain shops. If it was being micromanaged, they'd make exceptions for individual shops.

Penfailed · 08-11-2020 12:15PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Social distance???

Masks??

They are either useless measures, or they are only effective when coupled with hairdressers and retail outlets shut.

Yeah but you've others (one even only a few posts ago) questioning the use of masks. Sure, your buddy G'n'L couldn't cope with a mask when getting his haircut back when the barbers reopened.

CalamariFritti · 08-11-2020 12:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

NPHET's purpose is to hide the fact that the Irish Health Service is not fit for purpose and in time of greatest need the Health Service is unable to step up and treat people when the system comes under load.
The Health Service is costing in purchasing power terms per Capita as much as Germany's or France's but is unable to perform at the same level when under trade. It simply doesn't have the ability to provide and man ICU beds or test/trace effectively.
NPHET would prefer to lock down the Country to hide the failures of the Health Service.
They will run up the national debt, drive thousands of businesses to the wall and restrict free travel/personal liberties in their attempts to hide their poor performance.
After this crisis the entire Health Service must be(but won't be) rebuilt in to something which is actually fit for purpose.
I don't align myself alongside the likes of CalamariFritti who deny that masks can and do capture corona laden water droplets but he and his are the loudest to complain. They repulse the normal impartial observer and are actually counter-productive. This causes the underlying problem to be ignored which is a lot of Health Professionals are protecting their income while never addressing the dysfunctional health service and diverting attention so that they can continue as they are at present delivering poor and expensive outcomes for the Public who must use their services.

I take slight offence in that.

I am not saying that masks can not catch corona laden water droplets. They probably can. It just doesnt seem to make any difference. We got numbers down to single figures without masks. We also got numbers up to record highs with masks. Clearly mask impact is at the very least vastly overstated.

08-11-2020 12:23PM

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I take slight offence in that.

I am not saying that masks can not catch corona laden water droplets. They probably can. It just doesnt seem to make any difference. We got numbers down to single figures without masks. We also got numbers up to record highs with masks. Clearly mask impact is at the very least vastly overstated.

You have no reliable basis to which you can anchor your claim that Masks make no difference. Stop making the claim as is colours every other comment you may make on the topic.

zf0wqv9oemuasj · 08-11-2020 12:25PM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I can buy a can of paint while wearing my mask and SD in a store but in the same store I can't buy a picture frame. Can you tell me where is the logic or is Covid conscious of my purchasing choice?

Hi, the idea is to limit people’s reasons for going out, for interacting, for entering shops and so on.

The person buying the picture frame might stay at home if they can’t get a picture frame which is exceptionally non-essential.

Same goes for buying clothes in Dunnes stores but also it’s not fair that Dunnes stores could sell clothes while a clothes shop has to close they should both be closed.

I must admit that I have been very disappointed to see some dunnes stores still selling clothes and so on, it really is not acceptable.

CalamariFritti · 08-11-2020 12:29PM

Penfailed wrote: »

It is a macro solution though. It's a blanket ban on non-essential items. That's why it's created these anomalies in certain shops. If it was being micromanaged, they'd make exceptions for individual shops.

If your macro attempt leads to micro adjustments it either isn't macro enough or you're getting caught up in unnecessary detail.
But thats not whats happening here. There are people calling the shots who lost the run of themselves. This literally is the health & safety brigade 'brainstorming'.
The best yet was dont turn the telly too loud in the pubs. (In those 2 weeks they were allowed to open)

dalyboy · 08-11-2020 12:30PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You have no reliable basis to which you can anchor your claim that Masks make no difference. Stop making the claim as is colours every other comment you may make on the topic.

He has a reliable basis .... “ We got numbers down to single figures without masks. We also got numbers up to record highs with masks” . This is a FACT.

Now what’s your reliable basis for masks benefits to the contrary ?

CalamariFritti · 08-11-2020 12:35PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You have no reliable basis to which you can anchor your claim that Masks make no difference. Stop making the claim as is colours every other comment you may make on the topic.

My basis is at least as reliable as the claim of the mask advocates.

Thats grand only we're not exactly talking about dress code for a birthday party here. If you mandate restrictions on an entire population your stuff better holds up to scrutiny.

08-11-2020 12:36PM

dalyboy wrote: »

He has a reliable basis .... “ We got numbers down to single figures without masks. We also got numbers up to record highs with masks” . This is a FACT.

Now what’s your reliable basis for masks benefits to the contrary ?

The surface of the virus desiccated quite quickly in warmer weather. That isn't to do with avoiding the wearing of masks.
In lower temperatures when humidity is higher such as would be experienced now the virus lives longer and spreads more easily.
The weather conditions outdoors now are more akin to what you'd find in an Abattoir where the virus was spreading like wildfire during the time that you are referring to when people weren't wearing masks outdoors.

Thierry12 · 08-11-2020 12:36PM

dalyboy wrote: »

He has a reliable basis .... “ We got numbers down to single figures without masks. We also got numbers up to record highs with masks” . This is a FACT.

Now what’s your reliable basis for masks benefits to the contrary ?

That's true for tested numbers

We had 10,000 - 20,000 untested daily cases at the peak in March/April

That can't be denied now@

Penfailed · 08-11-2020 12:37PM

CalamariFritti wrote: »

If your macro attempt leads to micro adjustments it either isn't macro enough or you're getting caught up in unnecessary detail.
But thats not whats happening here. There are people calling the shots who lost the run of themselves. This literally is the health & safety brigade 'brainstorming'.
The best yet was dont turn the telly too loud in the pubs. (In those 2 weeks they were allowed to open)

There was good scientific reasoning behind that decision. Would you rather they'd said no TV at all?

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings