Schools closed until February? (part 3)

Smacruairi · 28-10-2020 07:29PM

JJJackal wrote: »

I agree with all suggestions to try and improve safety etc

I just dont agree with strike at this time. Once pandemic is over, strike away imo

Ok, so we are here telling you that it would drastically improve safety to adopt a form of hybrid remote learning. It would lessen student numbers to allow for better distancing, and also cater for high risk students. Win win.

Was completely rejected by the DES. So you would support us in fighting harder for that, right

8k71ps · 28-10-2020 07:30PM

JJJackal wrote: »

Your doing teachers a disservice here. Teachers (when teaching) do essential work that benefits the economy and childrens health - this we all agree on

Lack of education is an emergency.

Just because it's an essential service doesn't mean their workers have the right to be treated poorly without retaliation. The right to strike even if it were nurses, doctors etc right now must be respected as a sign that conditions are poor. It seems like the unions are going to go pretty hard on this one since there appears to be a lot of animosity towards the union from teachers.

khalessi · 28-10-2020 07:30PM

JJJackal wrote: »

Your doing teachers a disservice here. Teachers (when teaching) do essential work that benefits the economy and childrens health - this we all agree on

Lack of education is an emergency.

I am not doing a disservice, I am stating a fact.

Education has not been properly financed for years, it did not even feature on the radar for the recent election. Suddenly we are frontline workers. I totally disagree with this perception, which has been bought into by yourself and many others.
Education is essential but it is not an emergency service, therefore comparing to hospitals and Firefighters is ridiculous.

As I have said before I understand to get economy up and running, schools need to be open so people can work. However, I would be safer working in a hospital then working in a school as at least I know the hospital would have my back safety wise while the Dept of Ed does not..

The hand sanitiser is a good example. As a nurse I used hibiscrub hand sanitiser and had a reaction to it. Cross Infection heard and came down and offered me an alternative hand sanitiser that wasnt as harsh. The Dept of Ed/ HSE who were ordering hand sanitisers for schools did not have anyone on hand to check whether it was safe.

JJJackal · 28-10-2020 07:31PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

Ok, so we are here telling you that it would drastically improve safety to adopt a form of hybrid remote learning. It would lessen student numbers to allow for better distancing, and also cater for high risk students. Win win.

Was completely rejected by the DES. So you would support us in fighting harder for that, right

I do not support strike at this time.

I support all endeavors up to but not including the threat of or strike action to improve safety for teachers and students.

MelbourneMan · 28-10-2020 07:33PM

JimmyCorkhill wrote: »

Typical teachers, such a precious bunch. Was only ever a matter of time before they started their sh1t.

Looking for pay increases too when the country is fcuked.

Awful crowd.

The lack of support for teachers is an unfortunate consequence of their past attitudes and actions, and presents a very particular problem in the context of engagement and handling this difficult virus situation, and will likely take an even greater dive with this latest develpment. There is a horrible predictability to their actions.

The teachers unions, without getting into the argument of whether it is true today or not - the reality is that they have painted themselves into a corner of being regarded as militant, unreasonable, and exploitative of any situation - are sadly in a position of having no credibility of being capable of engaging for the greater good of students, society, and even their own safety.

This makes it very difficult both for the departments of education, health, the government to have constructive dialogue with teachers, and, for any wider sympathy for the difficulties of teaching with the current risks. The good efforts and concerns raised by by many genuinely well motivated teachers and principals is lost in this context, and their voices muted through the problematic structures of their unions.

The government is very sympathetic to the complexities the current policy of maintaining open schools presents, but is hamstrung by the disfunctional structures and legacies of these unions, and sub-optimal outcomes in handling the corona issues on this front now result.

Smacruairi · 28-10-2020 07:35PM

JJJackal wrote: »

I do not support strike at this time.

I support all endeavors up to but not including the threat of or strike action to improve safety for teachers and students.

So you support... But don't in convenience life, is essentially what you're saying. We have exhausted all other avenues. There is none left. Irish education is the worst funded in the oecd, the DES don't care. Irish classrooms are the most populated in the oecd. DES doesn't care. We are now saying that high risk kids in particular are being left behind, and you won't care as it involves strike.

If that is your position, fine, I can't convince you of anything. Believe me, I don't relish the prospect of going into Christmas striking not being paid, but if it raises standards for all, so be it.

khalessi · 28-10-2020 07:36PM

2ndcoming wrote: »

I was the origin of that, the point got lost along the way it seems...

It has been going on since March, bit of a cliche at this stage.

Smacruairi · 28-10-2020 07:37PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

The lack of support for teachers is an unfortunate consequence of their past attitudes and actions, and presents a very particular problem in the context of engagement and handling this difficult virus situation, and will likely take an even greater dive with this latest develpment. There is a horrible predictability to their actions.

The teachers unions, without getting into the argument of whether it is true today or not - the reality is that they have painted themselves into a corner of being regarded as militant, unreasonable, and exploitative of any situation - are sadly in a position of having no credibility of being capable of engaging for the greater good of students, society, and even their own safety.

This makes it very difficult both for the departments of education, health, the government to have constructive dialogue with teachers, and, for any wider sympathy for the difficulties of teaching with the current risks. The good efforts and concerns raised by by many genuinely well motivated teachers and principals is lost in this context, and their voices muted through the problematic structures of their unions.

The government is very sympathetic to the complexities the current policy of maintaining open schools presents, but is hamstrung by the disfunctional structures and legacies of these unions, and sub-optimal outcomes in handling the corona issues on this front now result.

Nah, I disagree. The DES has maintained poor relations. You only have to look at the leaving cert debacle to see how they operate. You forgot that that is fresh in people's minds, and everyone clearly remembers it was the DES (and ciara Kelly) who forced that one ahead, making an absolute bollix of it in the process. People won't forget that one so easily, so thanks but no thanks for your comment.

2ndcoming · 28-10-2020 07:38PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

The lack of support for teachers is an unfortunate consequence of their past attitudes and actions, and presents a very particular problem in the context of engagement and handling this difficult virus situation, and will likely take an even greater dive with this latest develpment. There is a horrible predictability to their actions.

The teachers unions, without getting into the argument of whether it is true today or not - the reality is that they have painted themselves into a corner of being regarded as militant, unreasonable, and exploitative of any situation - are sadly in a position of having no credibility of being capable of engaging for the greater good of students, society, and even their own safety.

This makes it very difficult both for the departments of education, health, the government to have constructive dialogue with teachers, and, for any wider sympathy for the difficulties of teaching with the current risks. The good efforts and concerns raised by by many genuinely well motivated teachers and principals is lost in this context, and their voices muted through the problematic structures of their unions.

The government is very sympathetic to the complexities the current policy of maintaining open schools presents, but is hamstrung by the disfunctional structures and legacies of these unions, and sub-optimal outcomes in handling the corona issues on this front now result.

Nice to get a read of the Sindo editorial a few days early.

wirelessdude01 · 28-10-2020 07:41PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

The lack of support for teachers is an unfortunate consequence of their past attitudes and actions, and presents a very particular problem in the context of engagement and handling this difficult virus situation, and will likely take an even greater dive with this latest develpment. There is a horrible predictability to their actions.

The teachers unions, without getting into the argument of whether it is true today or not - the reality is that they have painted themselves into a corner of being regarded as militant, unreasonable, and exploitative of any situation - are sadly in a position of having no credibility of being capable of engaging for the greater good of students, society, and even their own safety.

This makes it very difficult both for the departments of education, health, the government to have constructive dialogue with teachers, and, for any wider sympathy for the difficulties of teaching with the current risks. The good efforts and concerns raised by by many genuinely well motivated teachers and principals is lost in this context, and their voices muted through the problematic structures of their unions.

The government is very sympathetic to the complexities the current policy of maintaining open schools presents, but is hamstrung by the disfunctional structures and legacies of these unions, and sub-optimal outcomes in handling the corona issues on this front now result.

On behalf of every teacher on here, will you please get lost with your self self serving, sanctimonious government BS. The government don't care about anything except keeping schools open. A few casualties are probably to be expected is their view.

JJJackal · 28-10-2020 07:46PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

So you support... But don't in convenience life, is essentially what you're saying. We have exhausted all other avenues. There is none left. Irish education is the worst funded in the oecd, the DES don't care. Irish classrooms are the most populated in the oecd. DES doesn't care. We are now saying that high risk kids in particular are being left behind, and you won't care as it involves strike.

If that is your position, fine, I can't convince you of anything. Believe me, I don't relish the prospect of going into Christmas striking not being paid, but if it raises standards for all, so be it.

I dont support strike action at this time because of the impact it will have on the health (see below) of children (the trade of between risk of COVID and the other components of health is tricky for sure) and impact it will have on other front line workers who need access to schools as part of the routine established to care for children.

Health is a state of complete physical mental and social well being not merely the lack of disease or infirmity.

khalessi · 28-10-2020 07:48PM

https://twitter.com/MaireLineen/status/1321516245276151815

RTE taking more notice of discrepencies in numbers

Smacruairi · 28-10-2020 07:48PM

JJJackal wrote: »

I dont support strike action at this time because of the impact it will have on the health (see below) of children (the trade of between risk of COVID and the other components of health is tricky for sure) and impact it will have on other front line workers who need access to schools as part of the routine established to care for children.

Health is a state of complete physical mental and social well being not merely the lack of disease or infirmity.

Ok but you are overlooking actual health, we have thousand cases a day like. People are getting infected, we have deaths. Low levels, but still, deaths. How are you off setting those? A "cheers"?

wirelessdude01 · 28-10-2020 07:50PM

JJJackal wrote: »

Health is a state of complete physical mental and social well being not merely the lack of disease or infirmity.

What about the "complete physical mental and social well being" of the whole school community?

Does this only apply to children but not to others?

irishblessing · 28-10-2020 07:50PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

The lack of support for teachers is an unfortunate consequence of their past attitudes and actions, and presents a very particular problem in the context of engagement and handling this difficult virus situation, and will likely take an even greater dive with this latest develpment. There is a horrible predictability to their actions.

The teachers unions, without getting into the argument of whether it is true today or not - the reality is that they have painted themselves into a corner of being regarded as militant, unreasonable, and exploitative of any situation - are sadly in a position of having no credibility of being capable of engaging for the greater good of students, society, and even their own safety.

This makes it very difficult both for the departments of education, health, the government to have constructive dialogue with teachers, and, for any wider sympathy for the difficulties of teaching with the current risks. The good efforts and concerns raised by by many genuinely well motivated teachers and principals is lost in this context, and their voices muted through the problematic structures of their unions.

The government is very sympathetic to the complexities the current policy of maintaining open schools presents, but is hamstrung by the disfunctional structures and legacies of these unions, and sub-optimal outcomes in handling the corona issues on this front now result.

Throwing a wrench in your poorly thought out plans and badly covered up ineptitude, are they? And to think, all you's had to do is see the obvious writing on the wall and actually implement a range of safer plans for the schools instead of sitting on your hands all Spring, Summer and Fall. Look at your own dysfunctional, sub-optimal outcomes as a result of the lack talented & hardworking leadership, MelbourneMan. You couldn't answer my earlier question to you about the lack of proper planning for our school community, you know why.

Anne1984 · 28-10-2020 07:53PM

Has anyone addressed what teachers are doing on their lunch break? Two schools in north county Dublin where large numbers of staff had to self isolate as close contacts of a teacher who had covid. One school had to close the other had to only take in 5th and 6th years.

Surely they are not all in the staff rooms together? Having lunch on their own in a classroom is surely the bare minimum safety requirement that should be followed!?

HerrKuehn · 28-10-2020 07:54PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

On behalf of every teacher on here, will you please get lost with your self self serving, sanctimonious government BS. The government don't care about anything except keeping schools open. A few casualties are probably to be expected is their view.

In fairness I think they are reasonable points. I don't mind if teachers go on strike or not, really doesn't matter to me. Teaching unions were quite militant during the property bubble, right back to the 30% pay demand around 2002 or so I think it was. This is where the dislike of the teaching unions in particular comes from. It wasn't something fed to us by the independent in 2010 whatever some of you may think. Of course for teachers the most divisive time is after the money ran out. The 2 tier system is a result of the excessive pay demands during the bubble.

Smacruairi · 28-10-2020 07:55PM

Anne1984 wrote: »

Has anyone addressed what teachers are doing on their lunch break? Two schools in north county Dublin where large numbers of staff had to self isolate as close contacts of a teacher who had covid. One school had to close the other had to only take in 5th and 6th years.

Surely they are not all in the staff rooms together? Having lunch on their own in a classroom is surely the bare minimum safety requirement that should be followed!?

You know most classrooms are being used by students as their lunchhalls are taken away? Not every teacher has a room also. And no, teachers are actively discouraged from congregating, with staff rooms (the ones that were not converted into extra classrooms or isolation rooms) cordoned off for distancing reasons.

But the HSE definition of a close contact in a school at the moment is mask off and sitting very very close for over 15mins at lunchtime. I don't know any teacher who is doing that to by honest,but hey, I'm sure there are eejits in every profession so.

khalessi · 28-10-2020 07:55PM

Anne1984 wrote: »

Has anyone addressed what teachers are doing on their lunch break? Two schools in north county Dublin where large numbers of staff had to self isolate as close contacts of a teacher who had covid. One school had to close the other had to only take in 5th and 6th years.

Surely they are not all in the staff rooms together? Having lunch on their own in a classroom is surely the bare minimum safety requirement that should be followed!?

Most staffrooms are socially distanced but despite this most teachers stay in their room, when they arent photocopying. Max of 10 at a time in our staffroom and it never reaches that number.

Teachers share accomodation similar to nurses, in some homes there are teachers from a multiple of schools.

irishblessing · 28-10-2020 07:59PM

JJJackal wrote: »

I dont support strike action at this time because of the impact it will have on the health (see below) of children (the trade of between risk of COVID and the other components of health is tricky for sure) and impact it will have on other front line workers who need access to schools as part of the routine established to care for children.

Health is a state of complete physical mental and social well being not merely the lack of disease or infirmity.

I think you could try looking at it from another angle. You support the teachers but not the strike. But a successful strike would result in better health for children (and staff, and children's families they live with). There are already thousands of high risk staff & families; high risk children either already pulled (and therefore negatively affected) or still attending school and their parents are shítting it every day. Don't forget some teachers are parents too.

A blended remote learning plan would support these people who badly need it. That would reduce class sizes for those needing to be in school FT (sn's or front line parents or work out of home). Others can rotate in/out to have the benefit of both worlds, reducing class sizes again making it that much more safe for those in the class.

Teachers and principals have tried to voice their concerns, it will only take a strike action to force these changes. It's a shame and certainly no fault of theirs it even came to this. Other countries have set this up from the outset because they have more intelligent and hard working leaders. It's not the teachers who are lazy, it's the DES/gov't who didn't do f all about these obvious issues all spring, summer or early fall.

alroley · 28-10-2020 08:05PM

Anne1984 wrote: »

Has anyone addressed what teachers are doing on their lunch break? Two schools in north county Dublin where large numbers of staff had to self isolate as close contacts of a teacher who had covid. One school had to close the other had to only take in 5th and 6th years.

Surely they are not all in the staff rooms together? Having lunch on their own in a classroom is surely the bare minimum safety requirement that should be followed!?

I am in a secondary school.
Each classroom has 30 kids packed into it at lunchtime. All teachers lost their classrooms this year as this was government advice. 16 teachers can fit socially distanced into our staffroom(we have over 40 teachers). Most people stand outside in the carpark to eat lunch.

History Queen · 28-10-2020 08:13PM

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

The public will not support this strike. We are borrowing too much and many people are experiencing real financial pain.
Many also had a very soft time during the school closures from March to June.

I agree that all teachers should be on equal pay but now is not the time to pressure the government to borrow even more.
The country is on it's knees. Perhaps all teachers should move to the Post-2010 pay agreements if they really want equal pay.

You don't need public support for a strike.

Icyseanfitz · 28-10-2020 08:16PM

Anne1984 wrote: »

Has anyone addressed what teachers are doing on their lunch break? Two schools in north county Dublin where large numbers of staff had to self isolate as close contacts of a teacher who had covid. One school had to close the other had to only take in 5th and 6th years.

Surely they are not all in the staff rooms together? Having lunch on their own in a classroom is surely the bare minimum safety requirement that should be followed!?

I go to my car on break and lunch as do many

wirelessdude01 · 28-10-2020 08:19PM

Anne1984 wrote: »

Surely they are not all in the staff rooms together? Having lunch on their own in a classroom is surely the bare minimum safety requirement that should be followed!?

So how does your plan work when teachers don't actually have a base room anymore?

These are the sort of ideas we get from people who frankly don't have a single clue of how schools actually are at the moment.

MelbourneMan · 28-10-2020 08:21PM

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

I go to my car on break and lunch as do many

This is certainly a good choice and to be encouraged. It is an option that all should propose to those who might normally lunch in a group setting.

wirelessdude01 · 28-10-2020 08:24PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

This is certainly a good choice and to be encouraged. It is an option that all should propose to those who might normally lunch in a group setting.

So what's the solution for those that cannot afford to either purchase and /or run a car on the paltry house they are being given?
Those who walk to school, those who cycle to school, those who take public transport to school?

khalessi · 28-10-2020 08:24PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

This is certainly a good choice and to be encouraged. It is an option that all should propose to those who might normally lunch in a group setting.

There are no group settings at the moment.

virginmediapls · 28-10-2020 08:26PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So what's the solution for those that cannot afford to either purchase and /or run a car on the paltry house they are being given?
Those who walk to school, those who cycle to school, those who take public transport to school?

Death/disease!

Hotblack Desiato · 28-10-2020 08:39PM

JJJackal wrote: »

I agree with all suggestions to try and improve safety etc

I just dont agree with strike at this time. Once pandemic is over, strike away imo

Naive in the extreme. DES has not been and is not listening, they are not going to start listening now unless teachers are prepared to strike. As a parent of primary and secondary school going children I am appalled at the sheer incompetence of DES and the extent to which teachers and pupils are being expected to put themselves at risk.

Icyseanfitz · 28-10-2020 08:43PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

This is certainly a good choice and to be encouraged. It is an option that all should propose to those who might normally lunch in a group setting.

Considering how closely i have to work with 180 different students as an SNA in a day it seems pointless to be honest, but im trying my best to keep safe when schools are anything but at the moment.

Schools closed until February? (part 3)

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