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Schools closed until February? (part 3)

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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 962 ✭✭✭irishblessing


    JJJackal wrote: »
    If everyone in the worlds suddenly wanted N95 masks lets say because there was a pandemic, and before the pandemic you were only making enough for 1% of the world to have one (but not have one everyday), the HSE not being able to acquire a full supply of these masks in an unprecedented situation is not incompetence. They are not made in Ireland (open to correction here). Granted, the longer the pandemic goes on, it is reasonable to think that supply will increase and if the HSE do not have enough it is incompetence - not sure we are at that stage just yet.

    But "everyone in the world" doesn't suddenly want one. Just the people (if that's even true) working in small, overcrowded, un/under-ventilated classrooms with 30+ people capable of spreading the virus, for over 5 hours a day 5 days a week. In an environment with a collapsed testing/tracing system and without transparent data. Where else is this happening?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,586 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    JJJackal wrote: »
    They are not made in Ireland (open to correction here).

    There is a company in Limerick turning out 3 million masks a week.

    There is no shortage of manufactured PPE in the world.

    IF as you claim their is a shortage of masks in hospitals right now, that has nothing to do with the supply of them and more incompetence from the HSE.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    2ndcoming wrote: »
    Healthcare staff signed up to do this exact job. No one else did.

    The equal pay issue should have been dealt with years ago.

    Healthcare works signed up to deliver healthcare - which they are doing

    Teachers signed up to teach - now threatening not too


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    Boggles wrote: »
    There is a company in Limerick turning out 3 million masks a week.

    There is no shortage of manufactured PPE in the world.

    IF as you claim their is a shortage of masks in hospitals right now, that has nothing to do with the supply of them and more incompetence from the HSE.

    N95s?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭2ndcoming


    RoryMac wrote: »
    No they voted against that proposal in the ballot. It's hard to argue with the proposals they did vote for but I think it was a mistake by them to include a vote about the pay for teachers after 2010, it will be used against them by sections to play down their overall point

    Again, if they left it out they'd be accused of not being bothered about that anymore, if they don't leave it out it will be used against them by sections to play down their overall point.

    They will never win against some right wing media commentators, they just have to stand firm. What they're being asked to do goes way beyond what they signed up for, and their longstanding issue re pay remains unresolved. More power to them I say.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    But "everyone in the world" doesn't suddenly want one. Just the people (if that's even true) working in small, overcrowded, un/under-ventilated classrooms with 30+ people capable of spreading the virus, for over 5 hours a day 5 days a week. In an environment with a collapsed testing/tracing system and without transparent data. Where else is this happening?

    Hospitals, nursing homes etc

    Not everyone (anti-maskers) dont want one - you are correct. Everyone else wants one. No one said they need one


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭2ndcoming


    JJJackal wrote: »
    Healthcare works signed up to deliver healthcare - which they are doing

    Teachers signed up to teach - now threatening not too

    If you think teaching in overcrowded classrooms in the middle of a highly contagious pandemic is what they signed up for. Which I'm pretty sure you don't, but are just being deliberately facetious.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,586 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    JJJackal wrote: »
    N95s?

    No.

    They have focused on FFP3 which would be the American named N99 AFAIK.

    Higher filtration rating.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Is it not one of the reasons that people are leaving or not going into the profession though? It's demoralising or so I hear. Anyone in any company would feel the same, it's not just in education. And we badly need to beef up employment in that sector so I don't know, I think it's probably an important element.
    The PSSA is still running and it's very premature and more a bit manipulative to front load it, especially when the main issues for teachers seem to be about safety. Personally never found teachers' unions terribly bright.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    2ndcoming wrote: »
    If you think teaching in overcrowded classrooms in the middle of a highly contagious pandemic is what they signed up for. Which I'm pretty sure you don't, but are just being deliberately facetious.

    I said teachers signed up to teach (this is true). You said healthcare workers signed up to fight a highly contagious pandemic in overcrowded hospitals (not true by and large).

    I think they signed up to teach in normal times the same way healthcare workers signed up to deliver healthcare in normal times.

    Very few people signed up to work at the front lines in a pandemic (some have but your average healthcare worker or teacher has not)


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 962 ✭✭✭irishblessing


    JJJackal wrote: »
    Hospitals, nursing homes etc

    Not everyone (anti-maskers) dont want one - you are correct. Everyone else wants one. No one said they need one

    Oh really? Who is this everyone else?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,737 ✭✭✭RoryMac


    2ndcoming wrote: »
    Again, if they left it out they'd be accused of not being bothered about that anymore, if they don't leave it out it will be used against them by sections to play down their overall point.

    They will never win against some right wing media commentators, they just have to stand firm. What they're being asked to do goes way beyond what they signed up for, and their longstanding issue re pay remains unresolved. More power to them I say.

    Why does everything have to be left or right wing these days!!

    It will diminish their argument for a lot of people I think.

    A lot of people are being asked to go way beyond what they signed up for especially in areas that have been shut down and now the workers are on PUP through no fault of their own. As well as supermarket workers who have been working every day since this started with little protection and being asked to police mask wearers etc.

    The teachers are right to force the issue of protection, testing & WFH but to tag in the pay issue now is a bad look while I agree it should have been resolved years ago


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,218 ✭✭✭khalessi


    JJJackal wrote: »
    Healthcare works signed up to deliver healthcare - which they are doing

    Teachers signed up to teach - now threatening not too

    Healthcare are being provided with testing and tracking and counted as close contacts of covid +ve staff. Not the same for teachers.

    Healthcare staff provided with proper ppe after fighting for it in March granted in April. Not all teachers have proper ppe.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,967 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    The public will not support this strike. We are borrowing too much and many people are experiencing real financial pain.
    Many also had a very soft time during the school closures from March to June.

    I agree that all teachers should be on equal pay but now is not the time to pressure the government to borrow even more.
    The country is on it's knees. Perhaps all teachers should move to the Post-2010 pay agreements if they really want equal pay.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    khalessi wrote: »
    Healthcare are being provided with testing and tracking and counted as close contacts of covid +ve staff. Not the same for teachers.

    Healthcare staff provided with proper ppe after fighting for it in March granted in April. Not all teachers have proper ppe.

    Can you explain the teachers setup re testing and tracking and how it differs from hospital staff?

    Can you give me an example of where teachers dont have proper PPE in the last month?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    The public will not support this strike. We are borrowing too much and many people are experiencing real financial pain.
    Many also had a very soft time during the school closures from March to June.

    I agree that all teachers should be on equal pay but now is not the time to pressure the government to borrow even more.
    The country is on it's knees. Perhaps all teachers should move to the Post-2010 pay agreements if they really want equal pay.

    I dont know if teachers had a soft time or not - the perception is certainly there that that is the case


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    JJJackal wrote: »
    I dont know if teachers had a soft time or not - the perception is certainly there that that is the case
    The problem here is the very wide range of demands including more money and the lunacy of free laptops for everyone in the audience. They really should have limited it to H&S only,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    is_that_so wrote: »
    The problem here is the very wide range of demands including more money and the lunacy of free laptops for everyone in the audience. They really should have limited it to H&S only,

    In practical terms to do whats been requested would take a long time - it is not possible to provide >0.5million lap tops in a short period.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭2ndcoming


    JJJackal wrote: »
    I said teachers signed up to teach (this is true). You said healthcare workers signed up to fight a highly contagious pandemic in overcrowded hospitals (not true by and large).

    I think they signed up to teach in normal times the same way healthcare workers signed up to deliver healthcare in normal times.

    Very few people signed up to work at the front lines in a pandemic (some have but your average healthcare worker or teacher has not)

    Healthcare workers of course are fully aware that they will potentially be exposed to viruses in their line of work, they are trained specifically for this.

    No one else is. If we had a wildfire epidemic you couldn't turn around and say the teachers should just carry on teaching, you don't see firemen complaining. It is literally what they do. Jesus.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 325 ✭✭virginmediapls


    Full support for teachers if they decide to strike. Completely ridiculous to think it's reasonable to leave schools open, while the rest of the country closes due to inherent danger of catching/spreading the disease.

    At the very least, why not employ a few teachers, on a contract, to create/record live classes over zoom for students who (a) are able to stay at home (b) have parents that are willing to do this? It would cut numbers in Secondary schools down significantly with a very limited outlay of cash. All it takes is a little coordination wrt syllabus by the Deparment of Education. It also gives a job to a few more teachers, and the videos can provide benefit to students for years. It pays for itself. It would mean better social distancing in schools.

    Nobody ever really seems to propose any sensible middle-ground in these discussions, it annoys me.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    JJJackal wrote: »
    In practical terms to do whats been requested would take a long time - it is not possible to provide >0.5million lap tops in a short period.
    Never mind the €100m+ cost, which is why it was stupid to include it. People will see that and the money demand at a time when it's very tough for an awful lot of people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,218 ✭✭✭khalessi


    JJJackal wrote: »
    Can you explain the teachers setup re testing and tracking and how it differs from hospital staff?

    Can you give me an example of where teachers dont have proper PPE in the last month?

    Ok this example I have given a few times here. Firstly teachers are not considered close contacts of children who test positive despite spending all day with them. In secondary students wearing masks and in primary they are not.
    Teachers have been told due to teachers wearing masks and students they will not be considered close contacts.

    In healthcare, staff considered close contact despite both wearing masks.

    Anyhow few weeks ago I spent 1 hour 2 days running, sitting either side of a desk, with a student who didnt have a mask who tested positive, I was told I was not a close contact and no test.

    Meanwhile, my sister came in contact with a doctor, both wearing masks, and in my sisters words at least 2m apart. She got tested 3 times in 7 days all negative tg. SHe stood at door speaking to doctor.

    Contact tracing was carried out on doctor, no contact tracing on student as despite being around 28 students, 2 teachers and an SNA, there were no close contacts.

    There have been lots of examples of teachers not being classed as close contacts, such as the 30 teachers in Drogheda who were aleerted via the app and then told to ignore it.

    There have been various posts where teachers are not provided PPE, they have had to buy their own. Some SNAs throughout the country had to get onto Forsa as they were given no PPE despite working in close contact with students.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭2ndcoming


    JJJackal wrote: »
    Can you explain the teachers setup re testing and tracking and how it differs from hospital staff?

    Can you give me an example of where teachers dont have proper PPE in the last month?

    Hospital staff are tested extremely regularly as a matter of course. Teachers are told to ignore the Covid tracker app because it doesn't apply to them in the same way as the entire rest of the population. That's a pretty big difference.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭froog


    that list of demands with a 2 day deadline is absolutely laughable. i feel for teachers, i really do but they need better unions. or ditch them altogether.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    2ndcoming wrote: »
    Healthcare workers of course are fully aware that they will potentially be exposed to viruses in their line of work, they are trained specifically for this.

    No one else is. If we had a wildfire epidemic you couldn't turn around and say the teachers should just carry on teaching, you don't see firemen complaining. It is literally what they do. Jesus.

    Healthcare workers are aware that will work in a pandemic - some nurses want to work in a GP surgery, some doctors want to do dermatology, some dieticians want to work with people with T2DM.

    There is a limited pool of doctors, nurses and allied health professionals who have signed up to treat and manage infectious diseases,

    Based on your theory (which I don't agree with), teachers new they would be exposed to viruses (children pick up viruses frequently) in overcrowded classrooms (overcrowded classrooms is not new).

    You are right firemen wouldnt complain about doing their job when their country needed them. I agree wholeheartedly with this


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    froog wrote: »
    that list of demands with a 2 day deadline is absolutely laughable. i feel for teachers, i really do but they need better unions. or ditch them altogether.

    Is hardly a 2 day demand. The problems were highlighted over the July period. They were promptly ignored. Now we have thousand cases a day. They gave 8 weeks of consistent messaging. There have been at least 3 threads on boards for example outlining the issues, so I can only imagine the amount of emails and consultation from the unions, as I know I have been sending one a week.

    How much more notice do they need? Seriously, I can understand your point on face value quick take, but when ppl stop and think you realise, actually wait, you're right.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,967 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    froog wrote: »
    that list of demands with a 2 day deadline is absolutely laughable. i feel for teachers, i really do but they need better unions. or ditch them altogether.

    Let them strike, it will blow up in their faces.

    Imagine someone working in a business trying to stay afloat during Covid by borrowing to pay salaries. Then imagine them striking for more money.
    The older teachers and the unions let the post-2010 teachers down by agreeing to different payscales. Shame on them but now is not the right time to fix their mistake.

    That said, many of their other Covid safety demands have a lot of merit.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭2ndcoming


    RoryMac wrote: »
    Why does everything have to be left or right wing these days!!

    Opposition of trade unions is one of the most fundamentally right wing positions going back the past couple of hundred years, not sure if everything is, but this most certainly is.

    Where once it was the landed gentry in opposition now it's the billionaire class resisting taxation and regulation through their media empires, the end result remains the same if unchallenged though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,737 ✭✭✭RoryMac


    Full support for teachers if they decide to strike. Completely ridiculous to think it's reasonable to leave schools open, while the rest of the country closes due to inherent danger of catching/spreading the disease.

    At the very least, why not employ a few teachers, on a contract, to create/record live classes over zoom for students who (a) are able to stay at home (b) have parents that are willing to do this? It would cut numbers in Secondary schools down significantly with a very limited outlay of cash. All it takes is a little coordination wrt syllabus by the Deparment of Education. It also gives a job to a few more teachers, and the videos can provide benefit to students for years. It pays for itself. It would mean better social distancing in schools.

    Nobody ever really seems to propose any sensible middle-ground in these discussions, it annoys me.

    Unfortunately the Gov have sat on their hands for the last 7 months so there is nothing in place to allow for students or teachers to do remote classes. This should have been prioritised in March/April to allow for a return to school with reduced numbers


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Let them strike, it will blow up in their faces.

    Imagine someone working in a business trying to stay afloat during Covid by borrowing to pay salaries. Then imagine them striking for more money.

    The older teachers and the unions let the post-2010 teachers down by agreeing to different payscales. Shame on them but now is not the right time to fix their mistake.

    Ah this old chestnut. Please provide me a link to exactly where older teachers voted to agree to permanently different payscales and conditions. It was sneaked in the back door, you know it. Direct quotes from the agreements only please.


This discussion has been closed.
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