Milk and Dairy

emaherx · 24-10-2020 10:09AM

KennisWhale wrote: »

I'm new to the forum but I don't understand why there is so much pro-animal agriculture in it. Particularly, pro-meat posting. The common theme to vegans and vegetarians is that we are all anti-meat. I am doing a sweep of this thread now to report the posts which are pro meat. Hopefully the mods can take a hard line. There is after all a farming forum.

The forum has very little activity except the farmer bashing threads. Is it really strange that farmers may respond to these threads that are on an open public forum. We are in no way effecting the proper vegan an vegetarian threads only responding to what are well edited propaganda videos and damn right lies being spread about us. I understand that some people choose to be vegan or vegetarian as they don't want to eat meat which is fine. Also this thread is about dairy and many vegetarians consume milk and other dairy products.

gozunda · 24-10-2020 10:11AM

KennisWhale wrote: »

I can accede to dairy discussion, given it is a vegetarian forum too, but promoting animal rearing for the slaughter is a bridge too far. There is no defence to it here.

I'll just requote what the previous poster said...

NcdJd wrote: »

If a poster creates a thread to accuse a large group of people that their business model is based on animal cruelty then what do you expect ? Posters have a right to challenge these baseless accusations.

Donald Trump · 24-10-2020 10:17AM

KennisWhale wrote: »

I can accede to dairy discussion, given it is a vegetarian forum too, but promoting animal rearing for the slaughter is a bridge too far. There is no defence to it here.

There are no restrictions on buying agricultural land. You are free to buy up 100 acres or whatever and rewild it or do as you like with it. Put your money where your mouth is. Buy that land and take it out of agricultural production.

Thelonious Monk · 24-10-2020 10:20AM

emaherx wrote: »

The forum has very little activity except the farmer bashing threads. Is it really strange that farmers may respond to these threads that are on an open public forum. We are in no way effecting the proper vegan an vegetarian threads only responding to what are well edited propaganda videos and damn right lies being spread about us. I understand that some people choose to be vegan or vegetarian as they don't want to eat meat which is fine. Also this thread is about dairy and many vegetarians consume milk and other dairy products.

In fairness yourself and others who post here seem to be in touch with the kind of things vegatarians/vegans would be concerned with, and I don't think people have a problem with your small scale extensive farming set up. If Ireland was covered in that kind of farming we'd probably have thriving biodiversity compared to what we have now and better treated animals, but we have massive factories relying on intensive farming, where practices may be questionable.
If Ireland was a huge producer of cheap clothing instead, a very dirty industry, and that was causing our waterways and land to be polluted I'd rightly have "beef" with them too.

emaherx · 24-10-2020 10:30AM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

In fairness yourself and others who post here seem to be in touch with the kind of things vegatarians/vegans would be concerned with, and I don't think people have a problem with your small scale extensive farming set up. If Ireland was covered in that kind of farming we'd probably have thriving biodiversity compared to what we have now and better treated animals, but we have massive factories relying on intensive farming, where practices may be questionable.
If Ireland was a huge producer of cheap clothing instead, a very dirty industry, and that was causing our waterways and land to be polluted I'd rightly have "beef" with them too.

Thanks we don't always agree.
But at least we are mostly civil about it.

I do however believe Ireland has a lot of just that type of farming, much more than you seem to know. The average herd size here is just 66 cattle for beef farms and a little more for dairy but half of all 100,000 or so farms have less than 10 cows.

In the uk the average herd size is 1800 animals which is vastly different, we have very few farms of that magnitude and that's the average over there.

There is plenty of regular chat in the farming forum on matters of the environment and biodiversity so farms like mine are far from unique.

24-10-2020 10:41AM

Why are people introducing borders in the battle against animal cruelty ?

It doesn’t matter. It’s wrong.

Anyway, I thought Ireland exports all its ‘good’ meat and imports from other countries to sell to the Irish consumer. And from my experience most Irish consumers don’t realise how much animal product is imported and how much of it they’re consuming.

So it doesn’t matter where you live.

If you’re eating or drinking animals you’re financially supporting animal cruelty.

emaherx · 24-10-2020 10:50AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why are people introducing borders in the battle against animal cruelty ?

It doesn’t matter. It’s wrong.

Anyway, I thought Ireland exports all its ‘good’ meat and imports from other countries to sell to the Irish consumer. And from my experience most Irish consumers don’t realise how much animal product is imported and how much of it they’re consuming.

So it doesn’t matter where you live.

If you’re eating or drinking animals you’re financially supporting animal cruelty.

In the case of milk especially it dose matter, almost every retailer in Ireland only sells Irish milk and it is clearly marked as such. Since this Irish thread is about diary it would seem relevant. But in all products I'd recommend people to buy Irish they are available on Irish shelves so there is certainly the choice.

You seem a little obsessed with import and export. Dose food you eat not get imported or exported? Is it all grown sustainably and without cruelty at all levels?

I think you need to give consumers more credit, they have choice between imported and local in a huge array of products. You can hardly blame farmers if some importers use misleading labeling if that is what you are getting at. I think hands down every single Irish producer of any goods would like country of origin clear on any packaging.

24-10-2020 10:56AM

I’ve zero issues with importing or exporting food.

I just hope the Irish consumer knows where the animal they’re eating has come from.

In most cases they don’t.

gozunda · 24-10-2020 11:03AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I’ve zero issues with importing or exporting food.
I just hope the Irish consumer knows where the animal they’re eating has come from.
In most cases they don’t.

Thats nonsense. You've railed against agricultural produce being exported many times - its like a mantra at this stage or something

So it goes to questioning the knowledge majority of consumers now? Do you really believe people are as uninformed as you're making out?

Perhaps that needs some qualification - people living here do.

emaherx · 24-10-2020 11:05AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I’ve zero issues with importing or exporting food.

I just hope the Irish consumer knows where the animal they’re eating has come from.

In most cases they don’t.

I think we can all agree we'd like it to be easy for the Irish consumer to know where all their purchases came from be that brazilian chicken or carrots from Israel. Don't know why you seem to think Irish meat or dairy is not available for Irish consumers though. I certainly have no problem finding Irish produce when I shop.

ganmo · 24-10-2020 11:16AM

KennisWhale wrote: »

I can accede to dairy discussion, given it is a vegetarian forum too, but promoting animal rearing for the slaughter is a bridge too far. There is no defence to it here.

There is a pair of threads, one in the animal and pets and the other in hunting that resulted in a change of charter in both charters.
If you want farmers to not post feel free to petition for a change in the forum charter.

Thelonious Monk · 24-10-2020 02:40PM

emaherx wrote: »

I think we can all agree we'd like it to be easy for the Irish consumer to know where all their purchases came from be that brazilian chicken or carrots from Israel. Don't know why you seem to think Irish meat or dairy is not available for Irish consumers though. I certainly have no problem finding Irish produce when I shop.

Supermarket fresh produce it's obvious, but a lot of the deli counter stuff and stuff served in fast food places comes from all over the world, apparently. Holland supplies a lot of the chopped up chicken and chicken for chicken fillet rolls, our new National Dish.
If you look at the ingredients of some processed frozen chicken in some supermarkets, it says ghastly things like "product of Brazil and Thailand", and so forth.
Another con is seafood. The "Connemara Seafood Co" or whatever they called have "Product of Connemara!" printed in loud letters on their prawn packaging, but if you read the fine print they come from Nicaragua and Bangladesh etc.
The prawn farming industry in Central America is having massive negative affects on their environment, and this Connemara crowd try and pass them off as local.
That kind of thing should be illegal. In fact it's almost impossible to find prawns from waters around Ireland or even close by, in my experience.

emaherx · 24-10-2020 02:57PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Supermarket fresh produce it's obvious, but a lot of the deli counter stuff and stuff served in fast food places comes from all over the world, apparently. Holland supplies a lot of the chopped up chicken and chicken for chicken fillet rolls, our new National Dish.
If you look at the ingredients of some processed frozen chicken in some supermarkets, it says ghastly things like "product of Brazil and Thailand", and so forth.
Another con is seafood. The "Connemara Seafood Co" or whatever they called have "Product of Connemara!" printed in loud letters on their prawn packaging, but if you read the fine print they come from Nicaragua and Bangladesh etc.
The prawn farming industry in Central America is having massive negative affects on their environment, and this Connemara crowd try and pass them off as local.
That kind of thing should be illegal. In fact it's almost impossible to find prawns from waters around Ireland or even close by, in my experience.

Oh I know, its shocking, but you can't blame us farmers for that, although some here it seems would certainly like too. I think most people are somewhat aware of these issues but people still have some choice, many fast food type places declare where their ingredients come from especially if it is local. Or buy in a super market or even better from the smaller local retailers and if in doubt ask.

Intentional misleading labels on any product should be banned and dealt with by the advertising authority or similar, it would be more useful than protecting words like burger and better for the consumer and the farmer be they animal products or otherwise.

Thelonious Monk · 24-10-2020 03:06PM

emaherx wrote: »

Oh I know, its shocking, but you can't blame us farmers for that, although some here it seems would certainly like too. I think most people are somewhat aware of these issues but people still have some choice, many fast food type places declare where their ingredients come from especially if it is local. Or buy in a super market or even better from the smaller local retailers and if in doubt ask.

Intentional misleading labels on any product should be banned and dealt with by the advertising authority or similar, it would be more useful than protecting words like burger and better for the consumer and the farmer be they animal products or otherwise.

Donegal Catch. Even their name is a lie! Lots of their products are from the bloody pacific.

emaherx · 24-10-2020 03:11PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Donegal Catch. Even their name is a lie! Lots of their products are from the bloody pacific.

I'm pretty sure every fisherman in the country is pissed of with that one too.

ganmo · 24-10-2020 03:12PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Donegal Catch. Even their name is a lie! Lots of their products are from the bloody pacific.

I posted earlier in the thread saying consumers care about brands, you're just driving that home.

Thelonious Monk · 24-10-2020 03:16PM

emaherx wrote: »

I'm pretty sure every fisherman in the country is pissed of with that one too.

I always thought nearly all our fish is caught for foreign market. Another industry needing reform for its own good in my opinion.

emaherx · 24-10-2020 03:42PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I always thought nearly all our fish is caught for foreign market. Another industry needing reform for its own good in my opinion.

The Irish market for fish has never been great except in certain regions. I'm not going to get into the conversation on fishing reform, I'll leave that for some one else to defend. But to be fair all these issues are not limited to animal products. How many people know where the veg they eat comes from or even takes the time to care as for the ingredients of any processed foods now that really becomes a mine field. And sure while we are at it why is palm oil in everything these days.

None of that is a dig at vegan foods as those issues are across the board and not just in food either.

Markcheese · 24-10-2020 03:50PM

I can answer the palm oil one ... It's a cheap bulk commodity ... Coco butter too expensive ? ,replace some of it with palm oil ,
Used to use animal fat In a product ? ,throw in palm oil ,keep the veggies happy
Worried about how hydrogenated veg oil sounds on your ingredient list ,chuck in palm oil instead
It's a wonder product , cheap , tasteless, multifunction,bulk transportable ,almost limitless amounts ... Just like wheat ,maize,soya,sugar ...( And to some extent non fat milk powder )

I'll think ye probably all know the down sides ....

auspicious · 24-10-2020 04:22PM

gozunda wrote: »

auspicious - i hate to point this out. But it's not the 'vegan' forum - its the "vegetarian and vegan forum".

And yes many vegetarians use 'animal products" including eggs and dairy products. Dumping your zeitgeist on others and demanding posters "respect" your "overarching tenet" in a thread which in many respects amounts to little more than hate speech against farmers comes across as somewhat ironic tbf.

Vegetarian too, my bad. A step in the right direction and hopefully one day they can go further and escape their dairy addiction.
Although the position most ethical veggies take is ambiguous; they abstain from eating meat out of respect to sentient life but allow sentient life to be exploited and open to the potential of physical and mental distress. And when the udders run dry the sentient life they're attached to cry out in abject terror when the blade slits their throat.

There are too many varieties of vegetarian to count on my fingers.
It has never been easier than it is now to go vegan with so many tasty alternative dairy free cheeses and yoghurts sitting in supermarkets and shops the length and breath of the country.

Meat eaters opinions are welcome.
There is no hate against farmers for me. Just the practices. Cruelty is inherent in animal farming.
If meat was necessary to survive I wouldn't be vegan. Some responses fail to reflect an understanding of this.

sunnib · 24-10-2020 05:41PM

Hi, just wondering what about organic milk production? Isn't it done with more care toward the animals etc.?
I eat no meat or fish (mostly), as I don't like the taste nor the idea of killing.. I apologise and thank the plants before I harvest, still I don't like taking any life, even plant's life. But what should I live on ? Staying alive means being guilty of, indirectly, taking or suppressing other lives, no?
The only way to deal with this dilemma is being aware and careful and grateful, enjoy my food. Even butter, which I love. Personally,
if it was affordable I might go all organic, even become a vegan -

ganmo · 24-10-2020 05:56PM

sunnib wrote: »

Hi, just wondering what about organic milk production? Isn't it done with more care toward the animals etc.?
I eat no meat or fish (mostly), as I don't like the taste nor the idea of killing.. I apologise and thank the plants before I harvest, still I don't like taking any life, even plant's life. But what should I live on ? Staying alive means being guilty of, indirectly, taking or suppressing other lives, no?
The only way to deal with this dilemma is being aware and careful and grateful, enjoy my food. Even butter, which I love. Personally,
if it was affordable I might go all organic, even become a vegan -

The biggest thing with organic dairy is the lack of chemical fertiliser for the grass.

gozunda · 24-10-2020 06:00PM

Markcheese wrote: »

I can answer the palm oil one ... It's a cheap bulk commodity ... Coco butter too expensive ? ,replace some of it with palm oil ,
Used to use animal fat In a product ? ,throw in palm oil ,keep the veggies happy
Worried about how hydrogenated veg oil sounds on your ingredient list ,chuck in palm oil instead
It's a wonder product , cheap , tasteless, multifunction,bulk transportable ,almost limitless amounts ... Just like wheat ,maize,soya,sugar ...( And to some extent non fat milk powder )

I'll think ye probably all know the down sides ....

The other ubiquitous ingredient is soy. Another cheap bulk commidity. Flour too expensive- use soy meal instead, Need a cheap filler use soy. Need some bulking ingredients for pet foods? Add soy.

It's used as a cheap (and frankly nasty imo) filler in confectionery, bread, highly processed food, fake meats such as the impossible range of products. And like palm oil - It's seen as a wonder product , cheap , tasteless, multifunction, bulk transportable - almost limitless amounts.

It's a highly processed product with a dubious environmental record in many incidents. Which include gmo and specific roundup resistant varieties.

Interestingly of the soy produced in Brazil and Amazon regions in 2019 - approx 87% of all soy grown there was either exported directly to China or used domestically. Leaving just approx 13 % which was exported to a number of other countries - of which the main importers were the Netherlands, Iran and Spain Thailand and Turkey.

gozunda · 24-10-2020 06:19PM

auspicious wrote: »

Vegetarian too, my bad. A step in the right direction and hopefully one day they can go further and escape their dairy addiction. Although the position most ethical veggies take is ambiguous; they abstain from eating meat out of respect to sentient life but allow sentient life to be exploited and open to the potential of physical and mental distress. And when the udders run dry the sentient life they're attached to cry out in abject terror when the blade slits their throat.

There are too many varieties of vegetarian to count on my fingers. It has never been easier than it is now to go vegan with so many tasty alternative dairy free cheeses and yoghurts sitting in supermarkets and shops the length and breath of the country.

Meat eaters opinions are welcome.
There is no hate against farmers for me. Just the practices. Cruelty is inherent in animal farming. If meat was necessary to survive I wouldn't be vegan. Some responses fail to reflect an understanding of this.

I can't answer for any vegetarians and I'm sure they are more than capable of handling any criticism of their personal pov and reasons for choosing vegetarianism.

I will point out however that ' cruelty' is not inherent in animal farming. Cruelty is illegal and not tolerated imo. That some may hold personal opinions that any farming as 'cruelty' is irrelevant. Because 'cruelty' is already defined in law and carries heavy and serious penalties. And the use of language such as 'crying in abject terror' 'slitting throats' etc is hyperbole as it does not reflect how animal slaughter actually takes place and ignores the fact that animals are stunned, before being killed. And that is as should be. I've been in abattoirs and ime they are highly regulated and inspected in relation to welfare standards.

Edit: on the whole naming thing. vegans call themselves vegans. vegetarians call themselves vegetarians. That's fine imo - but it is disingenuous for some to assign the name of 'meat eaters' to those who eat a mixed diet. I know of no one who only eats meat. The correct term is omnivore.

CowboyTed · 24-10-2020 06:23PM

SnowyMuckish wrote: »

So so cruel, awful, awful life for these poor creatures. I’m not vegan or vegetarian. I would like to consider it but it’s something I’ve grown up with, how do you cut real milk from your coffee? How do you deal with the loss of nutrition? Dairy and meat are such a substantial parts of our diet and it’s in everything. It’s very hard to remove....

Saw part of the video and it is crazy stuff...

Calves are taken away from the mothers because they should be moving on to a grass diet, we do the same thing with human babies otherwise would you think it is right a 4 year old is still using his mother's breast milk.
Also the welfare of the mother has to be taken into account as well. The calf is effectively robbing nutrition from the mother.

.

Donald Trump · 24-10-2020 08:17PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Supermarket fresh produce it's obvious, but a lot of the deli counter stuff and stuff served in fast food places comes from all over the world, apparently. Holland supplies a lot of the chopped up chicken and chicken for chicken fillet rolls, our new National Dish.
If you look at the ingredients of some processed frozen chicken in some supermarkets, it says ghastly things like "product of Brazil and Thailand", and so forth.
Another con is seafood. The "Connemara Seafood Co" or whatever they called have "Product of Connemara!" printed in loud letters on their prawn packaging, but if you read the fine print they come from Nicaragua and Bangladesh etc.
The prawn farming industry in Central America is having massive negative affects on their environment, and this Connemara crowd try and pass them off as local.
That kind of thing should be illegal. In fact it's almost impossible to find prawns from waters around Ireland or even close by, in my experience.

Blaming, or giving out to Irish farmers because you might be unknowingly be being given imported food is a bit like blaming your IT-qualified friend because you called Eir tech support and were connected to a call centre in India when he is getting underpaid because of that same outsourcing.

Thelonious Monk · 25-10-2020 12:34PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Blaming, or giving out to Irish farmers because you might be unknowingly be being given imported food is a bit like blaming your IT-qualified friend because you called Eir tech support and were connected to a call centre in India when he is getting underpaid because of that same outsourcing.

Where was there blame on Irish farmers in that post? There wasn't. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of food supply these days.

PainInTheArse · 25-10-2020 03:06PM

CowboyTed wrote: »

Saw part of the video and it is crazy stuff...

Calves are taken away from the mothers because they should be moving on to a grass diet, we do the same thing with human babies otherwise would you think it is right a 4 year old is still using his mother's breast milk.
Also the welfare of the mother has to be taken into account as well. The calf is effectively robbing nutrition from the mother.

.

Donald Trump · 25-10-2020 03:20PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Where was there blame on Irish farmers in that post? There wasn't. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of food supply these days.

Sorry. I misread your post and incorrectly took it in the context of some other posts by other posters.

Markcheese · 25-10-2020 06:42PM

ganmo wrote: »

The biggest thing with organic dairy is the lack of chemical fertiliser for the grass.

Not really , a good clover system ,and keeping as much slurry as possible for spring ,
Grass doesn't need artificial fertilizer, but grass land does need different management without it. .

Milk and Dairy

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