Schools closed until February? (part 3)

blanch152 · 24-10-2020 07:23PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I agree that education needs to continue. It also needs to happen in person, however I'll argue that changes will possibly need to be made to what is currently happening inorder to preserve in class education for all.

Now don't go asking me what I'm suggesting as that has been argued about till the cows come home already.

What is essential is that we get numbers down to a manageable figure. I really do think further societal restrictions/changes will be needed to achieve this and education will probably be one of those 'services' that will need to adapt.

The Halloween and Christmas breaks will hopefully be sufficient to take the pressure off the schools. If longer breaks are needed, we can keep going into June and July next summer.

8k71ps · 24-10-2020 07:23PM

blanch152 wrote: »

It has been the foundation stone of the union's payclaims for the last forty years, how education is essential to Ireland's future, now, when they are asked to put their shoulder to the wheel to back it up, they are suddenly not so essential.

Why shouldn't they be given access to rapid testing and be allowed to have people work from home if it's so essential?

wirelessdude01 · 24-10-2020 07:25PM

blanch152 wrote: »

The Halloween and Christmas breaks will hopefully be sufficient to take the pressure off the schools. If longer breaks are needed, we can keep going into June and July next summer.

This was already discussed on here. For various reasons this probably wouldn't be a runner.

Now you also seem to have deliberately misinterpreted what I was saying. I never suggested taking "breaks". Be very clear on that.

irishblessing · 24-10-2020 07:33PM

blanch152 wrote: »

It has been the foundation stone of the union's payclaims for the last forty years, how education is essential to Ireland's future, now, when they are asked to put their shoulder to the wheel to back it up, they are suddenly not so essential.

That is a disingenuous and inaccurate spin.

They have put their shoulders to the wheel, starting with doing their best to implement largely unworkable guidelines a mere 3 weeks before schools were to open. My kids school and it's teachers have done their absolute best with the shít support they have been "blessed" with.

It's not about being essential or not. It's about safety. I suspect you know this you just want to have your low blows. Why, is anybody's guess.

Thats me · 24-10-2020 07:34PM

8k71ps wrote: »

Sure in South Korea if they detect even a single case they shut down the entire school immediately.

Schools were closed for holidays when Korea was hit by covid and they simply didn't reopen their schools. AFAIR they started to open schools in May only.

irishblessing · 24-10-2020 07:42PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Thank you for your reply. You raise quite a number of points and questions here, and I shall reply to each presently.

I'm on the edge of my seat. :rolleyes:

joe40 · 24-10-2020 07:42PM

blanch152 wrote: »

It has been the foundation stone of the union's payclaims for the last forty years, how education is essential to Ireland's future, now, when they are asked to put their shoulder to the wheel to back it up, they are suddenly not so essential.

In fairness the unions are asking for schools to be safer. Nobody including the vast majority of teachers want schools to close.
Education and school is a essential service in so many ways. Online lessons are a very poor alternative to face to face teaching.
I have done a few webinar training sessions and they are mind bogglingly boring, after about an hour I was taking in very little info.
The idea of kids listening into streamed lessons or pre recorded lessons is not feasible to any significant extent.
Maybe for well motivated kids with good access to technology, but many 1000s would be left behind.

8k71ps · 24-10-2020 07:49PM

joe40 wrote: »

In fairness the unions are asking for schools to be safer. Nobody including the vast majority of teachers want schools to close.
Education and school is a essential service in so many ways. Online lessons are a very poor alternative to face to face teaching.
I have done a few webinar training sessions and they are mind bogglingly boring, after about an hour I was taking in very little info.
The idea of kids listening into streamed lessons or pre recorded lessons is not feasible to any significant extent.
Maybe for well motivated kids with good access to technology, but many 1000s would be left behind.

As well poorer children are generally speaking the worst hit by covid in terms of spread so it's really a case of disadvantaging the poor anyways, just indirectly

irishblessing · 24-10-2020 07:49PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I think the teacher unions don't have a clue.

They have been asking for N95 masks which aren't used anywhere else except when treating patients.

I don't think you have a point here. The hospital environment isn't like anywhere else. The school environment isn't like anywhere else. But they both deserve to have proper safety precautions in place. If I was a teacher in a cramped classroom with people more likely to be asymptomatic and not tested as a close contact, at the least I would want to be in an N95, visor, and using a microphone...

They don't understand the statistics which show that schools are relatively low-risk compared to so many other workplaces that are still active and less important than education.

The data driving those statistics are seriously and dangerously flawed. That statement also blatantly ignores large studies done indicating the exact opposite, as well as more recent data. As we've been pointing out and discussing for weeks now.

What is weird is that they are supposed to be the ones to educate the rest of us, yet they don't understand some things as simple as this.

Just because you like your disingenuous low blows doesn't it make them valid.

irishblessing · 24-10-2020 07:52PM

joe40 wrote: »

In fairness the unions are asking for schools to be safer. Nobody including the vast majority of teachers want schools to close.
Education and school is a essential service in so many ways. Online lessons are a very poor alternative to face to face teaching.
I have done a few webinar training sessions and they are mind bogglingly boring, after about an hour I was taking in very little info.
The idea of kids listening into streamed lessons or pre recorded lessons is not feasible to any significant extent.
Maybe for well motivated kids with good access to technology, but many 1000s would be left behind.

So it's in the governments best interests to provide enhanced safety measures that keeps schools open and all of us safer, right?

joe40 · 24-10-2020 08:00PM

irishblessing wrote: »

So it's in the governments best interests to provide enhanced safety measures that keeps schools open and all of us safer, right?

Yeah, absolutely, especially rapid contact tracing and local shutdowns of either individual class or full school.

Thats me · 24-10-2020 08:22PM

blanch152 wrote: »

It has been the foundation stone of the union's payclaims for the last forty years, how education is essential to Ireland's future, now, when they are asked to put their shoulder to the wheel to back it up, they are suddenly not so essential.

It is difficult to find someone who would have any doubt that education is essential to Ireland's future. But closing schools for the times of L5 is also essential to Ireland's future.

khalessi · 24-10-2020 08:27PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I think the teacher unions don't have a clue.

They have been asking for N95 masks which aren't used anywhere else except when treating patients.

They don't understand the statistics which show that schools are relatively low-risk compared to so many other workplaces that are still active and less important than education.

What is weird is that they are supposed to be the ones to educate the rest of us, yet they don't understand some things as simple as this.

Actually I disagree with you. Union negotiations are about lobing the high ball and debating on what is acceptable. So I am sure they are aware that N95 masks are used in medical settings but will eventually following discussion accept normal med grade masks.

Re statistics, what they understand and you don't or you are not willing to accept despite it being mentioned here for weeks, is that the parameters for what is accepted guidance for close contacts and testing and tracking else where for close contacts, has been substantially narrowed in both primary and secondary schools.

They are also aware that schools are part of the community and that the transmission rates are rife in schools. The Unions are not looking on FB but speaking to principals. Narrowing your contacts on who to test alters the results. The fact a class was tested on insistance of the teacher and 7 more cases discovered speaks of this. The HSE only wanted the pod tested.

Thats me · 24-10-2020 08:45PM

joe40 wrote: »

Yeah, absolutely, especially rapid contact tracing and local shutdowns of either individual class or full school.

lets me try to guess how this will work. Some child or teacher have got infected somewhere outside of school. For from few days to couple weeks he/she does not develop any symptoms and visiting a school spreading infection around. When he/she finally developed symptoms and checked positively - is not it a little bit too late to rapidly trace anything? Many people could be infected to that moment of time and pass infection to outside of given cluster.

MelbourneMan · 24-10-2020 09:10PM

irishblessing wrote: »

That same modelling that predicted 10's of thousands of deaths early on? What (modern) experience of a global pandemic from a novel coronavirus?

And would the fact that 10,000 people fell through the tracing cracks last weekend help that agenda out? How about the constant moving goalposts of the definition of a close contact leading to many people not being tested. Would the failure of many who fail to appear to show for their tests also not skew that prediction to your benefit? How about the fact that one of the largest testing centres at UCD has closed and therefore the processing of tests there this weekend can not be done?

Why didn't all your modelling and experience and indications then tell you that we needed to beef up our health care system and our testing system then? It couldn't tell you that very obviously we need a blended remote learning plan for our citizens? Wow.

OK. So while my post handle a single point, I note that your questions raise several related ones, and so shall take them in order.

Yes, the same model. While it has been refined somewhat, its predictive accuracy has been confirmed. That we avoided the tens of thousands of deaths that could have resulted without the preventative measures is a testament to the efforts of all involved, and to the Irish people themselves.

There is no agenda, as you put it. Simply the best management of the pandemic that we can achieve with available resources.

'Moving goal posts' have a rather negative connotation, which misrepresents the strategy. Your observation is correct though, that how we counter the progression of the virus requires regular modification of our tactics employed. This is good practice though - not a moving of the target itself which remains containment and supression of the virus.

I do not have a 'benefit' as you put it. The absence of the 10000 contacts does not have a great impact on the overall situation, nor of the numbers recorded.

The temporary reduction in NVRL testing volumes has little to no impact on the testing capability nationally.

'Beefing up' the health system has little impact in the overall scheme of dealing with the crisis. While surge capacity protocols have been implemented any fundamental increase in resources specific to the crisis have little relevance given the time scales of both ramping up such capacity, and the crisis itself.

While we did temporarily exceed testing capacity, on the whole, capacity has been sufficient to our needs. The real consequences of this would seem to have been misrepresented in their severity by a headline hungry media.

I do not follow your last question, but if you could expand, would be happy to revert with an answer also.

Thats me · 24-10-2020 09:24PM

"capacity has been sufficient to our needs." - it is getting more and more interesting who they are...

MelbourneMan · 24-10-2020 09:27PM

Thats me wrote: »

"capacity has been sufficient to our needs." - it is getting more and more interesting who they are...

Yes, our needs as a country to control and contain the virus.

Thats me · 24-10-2020 09:37PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Yes, our needs as a country to control and contain the virus.

Wouldn't closing schools for periods of time when the Country goes into Level 5 help us as a Country to achieve result faster and on more predictable manner? :rolleyes:

mvl · 24-10-2020 09:37PM

irishblessing wrote: »

I'm on the edge of my seat. :rolleyes:

and you have some stamina

- unlike you, I'm skipping over MMs posts - making better use of my time this way.

MelbourneMan · 24-10-2020 09:40PM

Thats me wrote: »

Wouldn't closing schools for periods of time when the Country goes into Level 5 help us as a Country to achieve result faster and on more predictable manner? :rolleyes:

Hello. Yes, it certainly would, but as I think I have explained before, and it is a political decision, the cost of doing so must we weighed against those faster results.

Thats me · 24-10-2020 09:46PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Hello. Yes, it certainly would, but as I think I have explained before, and it is a political decision

Sometimes I'm using combination of words "political decision" as replacement of swear words to describe result compromised by compromisses.

MelbourneMan wrote: »

the cost of doing so must we weighed against those faster results.

In the case of schools closed - where additional cost is going from?

wirelessdude01 · 24-10-2020 10:52PM

Tomorrow's independent makes for interesting reading.

Schools and also that tracing had got to a 4000 backlog before the decision was made to effectively get 2500 to self trace.

Schools piece is interesting because it's the NAPD leading the charge.

joe40 · 24-10-2020 10:54PM

Thats me wrote: »

Wouldn't closing schools for periods of time when the Country goes into Level 5 help us as a Country to achieve result faster and on more predictable manner? :rolleyes:

Schools were closed for 6 months recently. What will be different this time around.

Smacruairi · 24-10-2020 10:59PM

joe40 wrote: »

Schools were closed for 6 months recently. What will be different this time around.

Well check the graph for when schools were closed over the summer vs when they were opened end of August. Then look at various reports around schools influences on r numbers. Then go have a lie down.

Thats me · 24-10-2020 11:38PM

joe40 wrote: »

Schools were closed for 6 months recently. What will be different this time around.

Novadays the impact from opening schools is a fact supported by scientific study: https://www.irishexaminer.com/world/arid-40069769.html - unlikely any further demagogy would change that :cool:

Jucifer · 24-10-2020 11:47PM

The government clearly need a change of tactic on schools. The “nothing to see here” strategy is not working. A better strategy, especially if they believe schools to be a safe environment, would be

1) Acknowledge the additional risk that teachers are exposed to, especially during L5 restrictions. Stop telling everyone schools are the safest place you can be. It belittles the role teachers are playing in keeping the show on the road during the pandemic and deviates from the message of “we are all in this together”.

2) Assure all involved, including children, parents and teachers, that the most thorough and robust testing and tracing system will be implemented in schools. Provide assurance that any changes in current knowledge on transmission in schools will be acted on immediately.

3) Work with schools on an ongoing basis to figure out where weaknesses in systems have led to transmission and use this feedback to update guidance to schools on best practice. Listen to the teachers and not just administrators on where failings in the system occur and act in it.

4) Provide clear, timely and honest communication at all times. This will reduce rumours and speculation and gain trust.

I know it is easy to comment from the sidelines but these are basic principles that should be in place if we want to reduce the divisiveness of the issue at present and get everyone on the same page with respect to keeping schools safe during Covid

joe40 · 24-10-2020 11:51PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

Well check the graph for when schools were closed over the summer vs when they were opened end of August. Then look at various reports around schools influences on r numbers. Then go have a lie down.

By that logic keep them closed indefinitely.
And you can keep your snide comments to yourself I'm entitled to have an opinion on this topic.

MelbourneMan · 24-10-2020 11:57PM

Jucifer wrote: »

The government clearly need a change of tactic on schools. The “nothing to see here” strategy is not working. A better strategy, especially if they believe schools to be a safe environment, would be

1) Acknowledge the additional risk that teachers are exposed to, especially during L5 restrictions. Stop telling everyone schools are the safest place you can be. It belittles the role teachers are playing in keeping the show on the road during the pandemic and deviates from the message of “we are all in this together”.

2) Assure all involved, including children, parents and teachers, that the most thorough and robust testing and tracing system will be implemented in schools. Provide assurance that any changes in current knowledge on transmission in schools will be acted on immediately.

3) Work with schools on an ongoing basis to figure out where weaknesses in systems have led to transmission and use this feedback to update guidance to schools on best practice. Listen to the teachers and not just administrators on where failings in the system occur and act in it.

4) Provide clear, timely and honest communication at all times. This will reduce rumours and speculation and gain trust.

I know it is easy to comment from the sidelines but these are basic principles that should be in place if we want to reduce the divisiveness of the issue at present and get everyone on the same page with respect to keeping schools safe during Covid

Hello Jucifer. Unfortunately your posting promulgates erroneous information and I suggest you amend it or ask the forum moderator to do so for you if you cannot access it.

1) The risk is already acknowledged. There is no authoritative information promoting a line of schools are the safest place one can be. Can you reference these ? Teachers are not being belittled, and the call that we are 'all in this together' includes teachers playing their role along with the rest of society.

2) This is already in place. Possibly not to the levels demanded by some, but to the levels considered appropriate by the best advice available.

3) This is already in place.

4) This is already in place.

Any sense of divisiveness is coming from a vocal element in schools that far outweighs the issue.

Loafing Oaf · 25-10-2020 12:07AM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Hello Jucifer. Unfortunately your posting promulgates erroneous information and I suggest you amend it or ask the forum moderator to do so for you if you cannot access it.

wirelessdude01 · 25-10-2020 12:08AM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Hello Jucifer. Unfortunately your posting promulgates erroneous information and I suggest you amend it or ask the forum moderator to do so for you if you cannot access it.

1) The risk is already acknowledged. There is no authoritative information promoting a line of schools are the safest place one can be. Can you reference these ? Teachers are not being belittled, and the call that we are 'all in this together' includes teachers playing their role along with the rest of society.

2) This is already in place. Possibly not to the levels demanded by some, but to the levels considered appropriate by the best advice available.

3) This is already in place.

4) This is already in place.

Any sense of divisiveness is coming from a vocal element in schools that far outweighs the issue.

Norma must be so proud of you.

Schools closed until February? (part 3)

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