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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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    #3362
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    Population density. Ireland sits about midway at 112 out of 200 countries.

    Some of the places outside the EU where migrants are coming from already have lower population densities than Ireland. E.g. Somalia, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Iran etc

    Yet Coveney & Co. have their Gombeen vanity project


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    #3363
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,168 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    All one has to do is look at France, the UK, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Sweden and realise what is ahead of us.

    One would think that the economic collapse circa 2008 and the first ever massive drop in house prices finally made the slow realise that we are not somehow unique and different to everyone else in other countries.

    What other states have been experiencing for the last couple of decades we will experience in 20/30 years time.

    It is not rocket science, it is common sense.


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    #3364
    Patrick2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,099 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    Population density. Ireland sits about midway at 112 out of 200 countries.

    Some of the places outside the EU where migrants are coming from already have lower population densities than Ireland. E.g. Somalia, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Iran etc

    Yet Coveney & Co. have their Gombeen vanity project

    Coveney seems particularly keen on increasing our population from increased immigration, legal or otherwise. Anyone know why this is?
    If we hadn’t such a liberal immigration policy would our housing and health service be so strained now?


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    #3365
    TomTomTim
    Registered Users Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    Patrick2010 wrote: »
    Coveney seems particularly keen on increasing our population from increased immigration, legal or otherwise. Anyone know why this is?
    If we hadn’t such a liberal immigration policy would our housing and health service be so strained now?

    He is a big fan of the "father of globalism"

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




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    #3366
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,168 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    ...And to be honest, in spite of living/travelling to so many countries, I've yet to see a truly multicultural society, except, perhaps, that of Singapore.

    ...

    But you forgot to mention it is forced multiculturalism, forced integration in Singapore.

    Singapore only exists because Malaysia did not want such a diverse city in the first place.
    And the original rulers of Singapore realised that to keep a lid on all the different ethnic groups, all the different religions, that they would have to bring in rules and laws to specifically force them to live and learn together.

    No other country has the willingness to go that far and most other countries, especially their liberals, scoff at the tough but very necessary measures employed by Singapore.


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    #3367
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    jmayo wrote: »
    But you forgot to mention it is forced multiculturalism, forced integration in Singapore.

    Singapore only exists because Malaysia did not want such a diverse city in the first place.
    And the original rulers of Singapore realised that to keep a lid on all the different ethnic groups, all the different religions, that they would have to bring in rules and laws to specifically force them to live and learn together.

    No other country has the willingness to go that far and most other countries, especially their liberals, scoff at the tough but very necessary measures employed by Singapore.

    I didn't forget to mention anything about Singapore. :D It was just the only example of where multiculturalism actually happens.

    Sure, it's forced. Any successful and stable country where there is a diverse cultural population tends to be very strict/authoritarian in how they manage the environment. And they have to be... otherwise they'd be ripped apart with ethnic violence.


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    #3368
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,168 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I didn't forget to mention anything about Singapore. :D It was just the only example of where multiculturalism actually happens.

    Sure, it's forced. Any successful and stable country where there is a diverse cultural population tends to be very strict/authoritarian in how they manage the environment. And they have to be... otherwise they'd be ripped apart with ethnic violence.

    Yeah but klaz, you will find one of the multiculturalists quote you and claim if Singapore can do then why can't we.

    But you are right throughout the world diverse cultural and ethnic populations are most often held in check by authoritarian regimes and once that goes then all hell often breaks lose.
    Just see everywhere from Syria, Iraq in the last few years to even an European state Yugoslavia in 90s.


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    #3369
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,980 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    The average family in Ireland actually is 3-4 persons in the same household.

    https://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/publications/pdf/popfacts/PopFacts_2017-2.pdf

    In Africa just as an example it’s 5-6. The African people have larger families, more children. Quite simply as cold as it sounds that’s more of our tax payers money in the long run that gets diverted to help immigrants and their families.

    Bigger more expensive housing. More cash, benefits etc.

    When I needed rehabilitate help for a physical medical issue the pot was empty. 20 plus years a tax payer but hey Strumms no ! But get off a plane from a different continent ? Accommodation for you and your family, advice for you and your family, cash for you and your family, clothing for you and your family and whatever else. Doctor, physio, pram, clothing, house, apartment... you got it, when I needed something for the first time EVER having paid tax for two decades.... nahhhh no funding available...

    MY politics have always been left of center but that’s when I just said ENOUGH. When opportunity, funding, kindness, entitlements and help is lacking for the taxpayers the residents and citizens of this country yet those who just step off the plane can go cap in hand an receive everything...

    That’s when it’s time to say enough. When opportunity and help is being denied to our own taxpayers because it’s being given to people from outside the state ? Instead... ? That’s a big problem, that’s treasonous.

    If a wife said to a husband, “hey I think with our spare money we could do with buying a car, I’m sick of the bus drag every morning into town for work.”.... he replies...” yeah we have the cash, but I’d rather give most of it to this new family across the road who just moved in here, I gave them our lawnmower yesterday but I’d like to get them a holiday”... wife would say, “ok I’ll get the divorce papers printed.”

    Quite rightly to. Loyalty, to us and our own. FIRST.


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    #3370
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 25,027 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    twinytwo wrote: »
    But the powers that be would have you convinced that that couldn't possibly happen here, cause sure everyone loves ireland

    Terrorists killing people, knackers running riot on the streets and a people kept down by religious fascists.

    Irelands been doing that since back when all these other countries were still in their diapers.


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    #3371
    kildare lad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭kildare lad


    Strumms wrote: »
    The average family in Ireland actually is 3-4 persons in the same household.

    https://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/publications/pdf/popfacts/PopFacts_2017-2.pdf

    In Africa just as an example it’s 5-6. The African people have larger families, more children. Quite simply as cold as it sounds that’s more of our tax payers money in the long run that gets diverted to help immigrants and their families.

    Bigger more expensive housing. More cash, benefits etc.

    When I needed rehabilitate help for a physical medical issue the pot was empty. 20 plus years a tax payer but hey Strumms no ! But get off a plane from a different continent ? Accommodation for you and your family, advice for you and your family, cash for you and your family, clothing for you and your family and whatever else. Doctor, physio, pram, clothing, house, apartment... you got it, when I needed something for the first time EVER having paid tax for two decades.... nahhhh no funding available...

    MY politics have always been left of center but that’s when I just said ENOUGH. When opportunity, funding, kindness, entitlements and help is lacking for the taxpayers the residents and citizens of this country yet those who just step off the plane can go cap in hand an receive everything...

    That’s when it’s time to say enough. When opportunity and help is being denied to our own taxpayers because it’s being given to people from outside the state ? Instead... ? That’s a big problem, that’s treasonous.

    If a wife said to a husband, “hey I think with our spare money we could do with buying a car, I’m sick of the bus drag every morning into town for work.”.... he replies...” yeah we have the cash, but I’d rather give most of it to this new family across the road who just moved in here, I gave them our lawnmower yesterday but I’d like to get them a holiday”... wife would say, “ok I’ll get the divorce papers printed.”

    Quite rightly to. Loyalty, to us and our own. FIRST.

    Exactly, one of my friends commutes from portlaoise to Dublin everyday because he couldn't afford to buy a house up here . And yet a lot of new Irish got given new houses around Dublin which they're slowly turning into ghettos. I've another 2 friends renting apartments paying 1500 a month , they can't save for a mortgage and yet there's new Irish living in semi detached houses in the same estates with large families paying next to nothing for it. It seems that people who contribute the least get the most .


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    #3372
    Zookey123
    Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭Zookey123


    TomTomTim wrote: »
    Are you joking? Every dissenter in this threads has shown all the traits mentioned.

    Oh please.. are you seriously going to tell me posters here don't get frothy in the mouth every time an immigrant is mentioned? As I have stated already these anonymous online forums are not the best places to be making snap judgments on a large group of people.


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    #3373
    Zookey123
    Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭Zookey123


    kildare lad wrote: »
    Multiculturalism is a guilt by lefties who think their country is to white . How I ever managed to get by growing up in the 80's and 90's without multiculturalism and diversity must be a miracle. Whoever thinks bringing in loads of people from 3rd world countries is somehow going to be a benefit for the native taxpayers needs their heads examined. Nearly all couldn't support themselves if it wasn't for the government paying them HAP/ social housing , children's allowance, medical card, unemployment benefits. And yet we need them to pay are pensions in the future , they can't even pay for themselves never mind contribute towards the economy here .

    Yeah the 80's and the 90's was a much better time to be alive. "where my country gone" am I right?


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    #3374
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    Strumms wrote: »
    MY politics have always been left of center but that’s when I just said ENOUGH. When opportunity, funding, kindness, entitlements and help is lacking for the taxpayers the residents and citizens of this country yet those who just step off the plane can go cap in hand an receive everything...

    That’s when it’s time to say enough. When opportunity and help is being denied to our own taxpayers because it’s being given to people from outside the state ? Instead... ? That’s a big problem, that’s treasonous.

    The people pushing open borders on us from a minority standpoint are Fake Left

    Traditional working class communities, the true left (pre- Blair), men like Tony Benn and Union leaders of the past understood the need to protect a country's borders and workers wages.

    Sometime in the 90s the left took the shilling, the Fake Left was born and has actively worked to undermine their own working classes every since. They are virtually at war with the working class in places like inner city Dublin and the UK cities at this stage.

    This is also why Labour keeps getting destroyed in Britain, and mining and milling towns in Yorkshire and Lancashire voted for the Tories last December.


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    #3375
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    jmayo wrote: »
    Yeah but klaz, you will find one of the multiculturalists quote you and claim if Singapore can do then why can't we.

    But you are right throughout the world diverse cultural and ethnic populations are most often held in check by authoritarian regimes and once that goes then all hell often breaks lose.
    Just see everywhere from Syria, Iraq in the last few years to even an European state Yugoslavia in 90s.

    I'm perfectly fine with them trying to use Singapore as an example, because it shows just how little they appreciate or understand how cultures interact with each other, and the consequences of those interactions. Just as it shows the weakness of the Western application of multiculturalism...

    It all comes down to multiculturalism being a failed experiment throughout the western world. Pointing to Singapore doesn't change that. If they could argue against that statement effectively, then they would have already... ;)


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    #3376
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    The people pushing open borders on us from a minority standpoint are Fake Left

    Traditional working class communities, the true left (pre- Blair), men like Tony Benn and Union leaders of the past understood the need to protect a country's borders and workers wages.

    Sometime in the 90s the left took the shilling, the Fake Left was born and has actively worked to undermine their own working classes every since. They are virtually at war with the working class in places like inner city Dublin and the UK cities at this stage.

    Benn was always an internationalist. You're kidding yourself if you think the "true" left had any nationalist ethos in our lifetime.


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    #3377
    sabat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    Bambi wrote: »
    Benn was always an internationalist. You're kidding yourself if you think the "true" left had any nationalist ethos in our lifetime.

    Internationalism is about showing solidarity with all workers in their own countries; what the left in Ireland are engaging in is cosmopolitanism which is a middle class fetish for difference.


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    #3378
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,980 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Zookey123 wrote: »
    Yeah the 80's and the 90's was a much better time to be alive. "where my country gone" am I right?

    They were certainly less affluent times. They were fairer times though.

    You knew that whatever tax was being paid, on income, purchases whatever... were going back into a big pot that was helping the entire community of Irish people mainly.. who had contributed to the pot in the first place through taxes..


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    #3379
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    Bambi wrote: »
    Benn was always an internationalist. You're kidding yourself if you think the "true" left had any nationalist ethos in our lifetime.

    Well pushing for Britain's exit from the EEC as soon as it had joined was a long winded way to achieve Globalist objectives.

    The accusation against Benn in his prime is he wanted a 'fortress Britain' with tariffs, quotas and all manner of restrictions, the opposite of the free for all this Fake Left are pushing at us incessantly.


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    #3380
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Zookey123 wrote: »
    Oh please.. are you seriously going to tell me posters here don't get frothy in the mouth every time an immigrant is mentioned? As I have stated already these anonymous online forums are not the best places to be making snap judgments on a large group of people.

    Do I get "frothy in the mouth every time an immigrant is mentioned"? I don't believe I do. Care to show me where I have?

    "to be making snap judgments on a large group of people"... I love this statement.. care to apply your own logic to yourself? As you have just applied such a judgment to a large group of posters.


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    #3381
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,325 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Bambi wrote: »
    Benn was always an internationalist. You're kidding yourself if you think the "true" left had any nationalist ethos in our lifetime.

    Internationalism is a political principle that advocates greater political or economic cooperation among states and nations.[1] It is associated with other political movements and ideologies, but can also reflect a doctrine, belief system, or movement in itself.




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    #3382
    kildare lad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭kildare lad


    Zookey123 wrote: »
    Yeah the 80's and the 90's was a much better time to be alive. "where my country gone" am I right?

    I don't know about you but the 90s was a great time to grow up here. Thank God we took in loads of immigrants from Africa in the late 90s or we wouldn't have had the Celtic tiger years. I actually don't have a problem with immigration, I work with people from different parts eastern Europe , good people hard working but do I feel empowered or more culturally aware , no I don't . Do they feel more enlightened , I'd doubt it . We work , chat on our lunch break and go home . Do they count as multiculturalism as they're white.

    Can you give me a list of the benefits of multiculturalism ??


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    #3383
    Zookey123
    Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭Zookey123


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Do I get "frothy in the mouth every time an immigrant is mentioned"? I don't believe I do. Care to show me where I have?

    "to be making snap judgments on a large group of people"... I love this statement.. care to apply your own logic to yourself? As you have just applied such a judgment to a large group of posters.

    Hey Klaz,
    You can't be serious, have you read through this thread? (or any other thread involving immigrants on here). Most posters aren't actually interested in a discussion it is mainly immigrant bashing (Most not all). To say that most of this hate and anger is coming from the left is laughable.
    Do you not agree that making a snap judgement on a large group of people based on data collected off of an anonymous online forum is poor practice? How am I doing the same? Calling out individual posters biased views (perhaps due to my own bias) is not making a snap judgement on any large group (if you can call the group of right wing posters on boards that).


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    #3384
    Zookey123
    Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭Zookey123


    kildare lad wrote: »
    I don't know about you but the 90s was a great time to grow up here. Thank God we took in loads of immigrants from Africa in the late 90s or we wouldn't have had the Celtic tiger years. I actually don't have a problem with immigration, I work with people from different parts eastern Europe , good people hard working but do I feel empowered or more culturally aware , no I don't . Do they feel more enlightened , I'd doubt it . We work , chat on our lunch break and go home . Do they count as multiculturalism as they're white.

    Can you give me a list of the benefits of multiculturalism ??

    I have done so multiple times it's like going around in a circle at this point. Culture and race are not the same thing. You can do a cost benefit analysis of having a more diverse society (shown to be of benefit in the workforce). It is also important to note that culture is not static but ever evolving and certain cultures can have a positive impact on others. I agree some cultures have certain elements that go against our western values and this is non negotiable. Intolerance can not be met with tolerance. The left has always stood for that.


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    #3385
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Zookey123 wrote: »
    Hey Klaz,
    You can't be serious, have you read through this thread? (or any other thread involving immigrants on here). Most posters aren't actually interested in a discussion it is mainly immigrant bashing (Most not all). To say that most of this hate and anger is coming from the left is laughable.
    I'm interested in a debate, but with very few exceptions the pro multicultural camp debate little and run straight to attack and insult screaming right wingers and racists! Every time. Like clockwork. They appear to have nothing to discuss. Joke is I'm actually more "left" wing than I thought on most societal matters, well maybe old style liberal? These US imported labels don't help.
    You can do a cost benefit analysis of having a more diverse society (shown to be of benefit in the workforce).
    Actually those analyses are taken from societies that are already multicultural and much of it is down to having a wider spread of diversity to help sell stuff to the existing diverse. Again the accepted truth of positivity is drawn from already diverse societies who have no choice in the matter and have had to paper over the cracks in their "melting pots". The US an example, as are the other post colonial societies. Even though the negatives, not least if not mostly for the non majority White folks are many. And again please point me to any multicultural majority White ostensibly Christian, culturally European nation where the darker the skin the more likely you are to be bottom of that society, ghettoised, in receipt of social welfare(where it applies) and more likely to be a perpetrator and more a victim of criminality(and in the case of the US, the authorities). The plain fact is that these "diverse melting pots" are still run by and have Whites at the top and middle with a smattering of East Asians.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #3386
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,590 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Zookey123 wrote: »
    I have done so multiple times it's like going around in a circle at this point. Culture and race are not the same thing. You can do a cost benefit analysis of having a more diverse society (shown to be of benefit in the workforce). It is also important to note that culture is not static but ever evolving and certain cultures can have a positive impact on others. I agree some cultures have certain elements that go against our western values and this is non negotiable. Intolerance can not be met with tolerance. The left has always stood for that.
    It would be worthy to try to do that.


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    #3387
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,980 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Zookey123 wrote: »
    Hey Klaz,
    You can't be serious, have you read through this thread? (or any other thread involving immigrants on here). Most posters aren't actually interested in a discussion it is mainly immigrant bashing (Most not all). To say that most of this hate and anger is coming from the left is laughable.
    Do you not agree that making a snap judgement on a large group of people based on data collected off of an anonymous online forum is poor practice? How am I doing the same? Calling out individual posters biased views (perhaps due to my own bias) is not making a snap judgement on any large group (if you can call the group of right wing posters on boards that).

    What’s wrong with people being angry though ? Nothing ! People tend to get angry, as they indeed should at situations of unfairness. Several years ago immigration...it was running at .... 1 5 0 Million per year cost to the Irish tax payer. That was 2014... since then on average the taxpayers here have facilitated thousands of non nationals to relocate here and about 900 million... 900,000,000 euros of taxpayers money has been spent to facilitate and help. About what 1.4 billion over a decade ? Just imagine the good that money could do here for the people who created it !

    Imagine the ways in which 150 million could have benefited people here, every year...

    Expand the NRH so that more beds, doctors are available so that the Irish taxpayers can avail of treatment, help and expertise and recover instead of the critical bed and staff shortages.... more metro underground, more lines, stops, less pollution even more traffic off the roads.

    Or

    Invite a load of people over from outside the country and continent, who haven’t by and large a pot to piss in , invest the money helping them....yeah, sound fair ?


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    #3388
    kildare lad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭kildare lad


    Zookey123 wrote: »
    I have done so multiple times it's like going around in a circle at this point. Culture and race are not the same thing. You can do a cost benefit analysis of having a more diverse society (shown to be of benefit in the workforce). It is also important to note that culture is not static but ever evolving and certain cultures can have a positive impact on others. I agree some cultures have certain elements that go against our western values and this is non negotiable. Intolerance can not be met with tolerance. The left has always stood for that.
    Zookey123 wrote: »
    I have done so multiple times it's like going around in a circle at this point. Culture and race are not the same thing. You can do a cost benefit analysis of having a more diverse society (shown to be of benefit in the workforce). It is also important to note that culture is not static but ever evolving and certain cultures can have a positive impact on others. I agree some cultures have certain elements that go against our western values and this is non negotiable. Intolerance can not be met with tolerance. The left has always stood for that.

    Really , so by taking in loads of people from 3rd world countries and stick them in with Microsoft, intel , pfizer and Google and those companies will be even more successful. You have a very naive view of diversity . What about all the social problems that come with it to, Crime , housing , lack of facilities, alienation,ghettoization, radicalization etc. We're seeing it all over europe now due to left wing politics. Look at Sweden or Germany and see all the social/ crime problems they're having from idiots hell-bent on on pushing a diverse/multicultural society. You take Sweden for example , a prefect liberal society then you get lefties over there , who think that they can improve their society by taking in loads of people from Africa and the middle east. You don't even have to go to Europe , just look at some of the kids of immigrants are behaving in parts of dublin . The only culture them seem to have is English / American gang culture. I think a lot on the Left live in a bubble and ignore all the socio- enconomic problems that come with multiculturalism so they can feel good about themselves making society less white , which seems to be a bad thing nowadays


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    #3389
    Justin Credible Darts
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭Justin Credible Darts


    I do not care what colour, sex creed or whatever they are, its the impact of so many people coming here crippling the economy

    the lefties are trying to make this a colour issue which it is NOT


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    #3390
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Zookey123 wrote: »
    Hey Klaz,
    You can't be serious, have you read through this thread? (or any other thread involving immigrants on here). Most posters aren't actually interested in a discussion it is mainly immigrant bashing (Most not all). To say that most of this hate and anger is coming from the left is laughable.

    Oh I have read most of the threads regarding immigration. And yes, there are some who are simply ranting... that goes with any online forum. You get the nutters, and trolls, just as you get the people who are genuinely interested in the topic, willing to engage in rational discussion.

    And I have noticed a desire from some posters to attribute claims or statements to me that I haven't made. There is an amazing lack of honesty on this thread when it comes to commenting on those who argue against the general theme of multiculturalism. You've just done it yourself.

    "To say that most of this hate and anger is coming from the left is laughable."

    Care to point where I made such a remark? Or answer my previous request?
    Do you not agree that making a snap judgement on a large group of people based on data collected off of an anonymous online forum is poor practice? How am I doing the same? Calling out individual posters biased views (perhaps due to my own bias) is not making a snap judgement on any large group (if you can call the group of right wing posters on boards that).

    You're deflecting. I showed your own hypocritical statement, and you've just glossed over it. You claim that you're calling out individuals, but I haven't seen you do so, rather you made general statements about the posters on this thread. As I quoted. As I pointed out. As you just glossed over.


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    #3391
    section4
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭section4


    Justin Credible Darts wrote: »
    I do not care what colour, sex creed or whatever they are, its the impact of so many people coming here crippling the economy

    the lefties are trying to make this a colour issue which it is NOT

    The reality is this, the only reason we have had the largest per capita immigration into Ireland of any country in the last 20 years is because it suits business for profit and fake leftists because they hate real leftists , and the immigrants are financially better off.
    There is only one loser, the host community,the ordinary man in the street whose ancestors built the co7ntry up over the generations.

    In the mid 90s you could buy a house in north strand fir 20k
    Now that house would be 300k

    I wonder what caused that

    I hear these fake lefties talk about immigrants as if immigrants are a mono block who all think the same, in fact the immigrants are complaining about too much immigration themselves now. As they find they are undercut by people from poorer and poorer countries as business seek cheaper and cheaper workers ,


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