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Covid 19 Part XXVI- 50,993 ROI (1,852 deaths) 28,040 NI (621 deaths) (19/10) Read OP

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  • #3242
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    AlphaDelta1 wrote: »
    Nobody is ignoring it. Right now we have no vaccine and we need solutions for now.

    Think of Covid as a fire in your house. You've rang the fire services and they are on the way but the house will continue to burn until they arrive. You can't wish the fire or Covid away.

    For the vast majority it's a candle lit in their house.


  • #3243
    Arghus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,252 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    Necro wrote: »
    Zero Covid cannot work in Ireland unless you expect us to put up a hard border with the North. It's just not possible. And I'd be largely in favour of the strategies employed by Australia and New Zealand tbh.

    I know.

    I think that discussion will eventually happen with the North if the potential brutality of the coming few weeks comes to pass.

    It seems politically impossible now, but I think November will soften a lot of coughs.


  • #3244
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Very measured article from Jack Lambert of the Mater on how to live with the virus

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/jack-lambert-lockdowns-can-be-avoided-but-here-are-10-things-we-need-to-do-1.4382748
    few weeks ago the new living with Covid-19 ‘step by step’ national masterplan was launched, and, shortly thereafter, we were threatened with a deviation from the agreed approach via an escalation of restrictions to a Level 5 country wide, based on an increase in the number of new infections of the virus.

    Our numbers are still relatively small compared to March and April when it is reasonable to make an educated assumption that tens of thousands of cases were circulating undiagnosed throughout the country. At that time we only had the capacity to test 500 per day at the National Virus Reference Laboratory.

    In recent weeks we have scaled up testing, and are currently testing in excess of 80,000 per week and identifying between 500 and 1,000 cases daily. In March we had over 150 patients in our intensive care unit (ICU) departments with Covid-19, and recently we have reported 30 cumulative in the ICU departments nationally.

    Is this a reason for concern? Yes. But is it a reason to panic, NO. Living with Covid means that we accept that until there is a vaccine we must proactively find ways to coexist with the virus. It means finding ways to keep the virus at bay, not to count the numbers and to threaten lockdown measures which cause further erosions to our already fragile society. Covid kills directly and Covid kills indirectly. We kept the hospitality sector (wet pubs) closed over the summer so we would not ‘jeopardise’ the schools opening. We introduced different green and red list travel restrictions in an effort to keep Covid-19 at bay. Did those tactics work? No. they obliterated many small businesses that could not reopen, and it created mass unemployment in the travel industry at a time when airline staff could reasonably have operated safely over the summer when Covid risk was low. We sacrificed our economy for poorly thought through decisions, made in a void, without appropriate multi-sector stakeholder engagement.

    When Covid hit we knew very little about the virus and the implications for the wider societal structures. Lockdown measures in March were appropriate at the time as they gave us the opportunity to build capacity in the health sector with respect to procurement, testing, contract tracing, creating additional ICU beds and general preparedness. We have learned so much about this virus in a short period of time, we are not in the same position as we were back then. We now need to push the agenda forward, we know what the problem is, we have Covid-19 in Ireland and the numbers are increasing. What are the solutions, besides an over reliance on lockdown measures, to control the spread of Covid? The Centre for Disease Control (CDC), the World Health Organisation (WHO) and other experts have published and stated that lockdowns are not a long term solution. An interesting interview with Dr David Nabarro of the WHO by political presenter Andrew Neil should be required viewing for our Government and by the National Public Health Emergency Team (Nphet). In short, lockdowns should be a very last resort. There are alternatives.


  • #3245
    TonyMaloney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭TonyMaloney


    Arghus wrote: »
    I know.

    I think that discussion will eventually happen with the North if the potential brutality of the coming few weeks comes to pass.

    It seems politically impossible now, but I think November will soften a lot of coughs.

    Exactly. And if we're going under heavy restrictions people will want to get the most value possible from it.

    The thought of having to do it all again in Jan/Feb is horrible to contemplate.


  • #3246
    bazermc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭bazermc


    Was this latest letter leaked again or is readily available and published?


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  • #3247
    Strumms
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,913 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Arghus wrote: »
    People saying level 3 needs to be properly enforced are technically right, but fail to recognise that we don't have the man power to even do that much. You'd need multiples of cops, even the army, around the place policing everything people do, something we don't have - and that's even if we gave them powers to actually do anything. The only thing that would really have made level three work would be people taking on personal responsibility for their actions, but, unfortunately, that is just not happening enough to make a difference.

    People saying we shouldn't be entering lockdown and we should be concentrating on test and trace, improving bed capacity... you are talking about something after the horse has bolted. The virus is out of control. You have to fight the fire now, there's no more time to think about other options. Immediate and drastic action is necessary to prevent hospitals becoming overwhelmed - it is as simple as that. All around Europe countries are on the same road as ourselves - spiralling numbers, increased restrictions, overwhelmed testing systems - it doesn't matter how well prepared you are once this thing builds up a head of steam. This is going to be life for most, if not all, European countries in the short to medium term..

    When you don’t have manpower to enforce it. You need to set a deterrent. That when you do apprehend somebody.....there are consequences.... that will hurt a combination of their pockets, extreme cases... their liberty.


  • #3248
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,565 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    I think people are either ignoring or not aware of what our public doctors informed us of nearly 2 weeks ago and what NPHET have confirmed in the past 2 briefings.

    Tracking and Tracing has collapsed.

    Maxed out at 4%.

    We are no longer in control of the virus, the headline figures are no longer accurate. Forgot about the asipirational nonsense that the levels always were.

    It's game over, stay at home restrictions are coming, the cabinet are trying desperately to limp to the midterm, that is all.

    The important thing is we learn from all this and be ready for Wave 3.


  • #3249
    landofthetree
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,464 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    Boggles wrote: »
    I think people are either ignoring or not aware of what our public doctors informed us of nearly 2 weeks ago and what NPHET have confirmed in the past 2 briefings.

    Tracking and Tracing has collapsed.

    Maxed out at 4%.

    We are no longer in control of the virus, the headline figures are no longer accurate. Forgot about the asipirational nonsense that the levels always were.

    It's game over, stay at home restrictions are coming, the cabinet are trying desperately to limp to the midterm, that is all.

    The important thing is we learn from all this and be ready for Wave 3.

    And wave 4,5,6,7,8,9 etc when the vaccine doesn't end the pandemic.


  • #3250
    mohawk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭mohawk


    Pitch n Putt wrote: »
    Lets hope government see sense and don’t go to level 5.

    NPHET have too much of a vested interest in this to be allowed to dictate what should happen.

    Most of the board of NPHET are HSE employees who’s main objective is to protect the hospitals and the health service.

    Some of those board members contribute to the reason that we have an inept health service in the first place.

    Yoyo lockdowns are a load of sh1te.

    Living with Covid was the plan so let’s get the hell on with it....

    It’s the same HSE who run the hospitals that run out of beds every single year. Leaving hundreds a day on trolley’s in corridors. They want level 5 but I don’t trust they will do anything in that time to try and prevent another lockdown.
    What did they learn about transmission when they actually were contact tracing? The heaviest restrictions should be focused on where the risks are highest.
    Are there many people in NPHET who specialise in human behaviour? Would they not be telling them the compliance will deteriorate as time goes by.


  • #3251
    Jinglejangle69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,152 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Boggles wrote: »
    I think people are either ignoring or not aware of what our public doctors informed us of nearly 2 weeks ago and what NPHET have confirmed in the past 2 briefings.

    Tracking and Tracing has collapsed.

    Maxed out at 4%.

    We are no longer in control of the virus, the headline figures are no longer accurate. Forgot about the asipirational nonsense that the levels always were.

    It's game over, stay at home restrictions are coming, the cabinet are trying desperately to limp to the midterm, that is all.

    The important thing is we learn from all this and be ready for Wave 3.

    I can't get my head around your obsession for lockdown.

    I could take a guess though


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  • #3252
    GazzaL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭GazzaL


    I was talking to an elderly woman today, in her 80s, who told me she's had enough of the lockdowns. A lot of people will see level 5 as being optional. If you want to lock yourself in your house, fair enough. But most people will just get on with their lives.


  • #3253
    440Hertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭440Hertz


    What I don’t get is why the tracing can’t be a lot more self-driven and automated. Most people don’t want to spread this, other than a few psychos, and frankly high can’t do much about them anyway.

    If we extended the COVID-19 app, so if you get a diagnosis you could simply log in and go through your own track and trace. Figure out yourself who you’d been in contact with over say the last 5 day window. Put their phone numbers in & the app would simply alert them to go get a test.

    I think most people would be diligent enough to do that.

    The app could maintain the layer of privacy protection, much like you don’t know someone’s swiped you on Tinder.

    Beyond that, the tracking teams could focus on more complicated cases and people who aren’t tech savvy.


  • #3254
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,565 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Jinglejangle69 wrote: »
    I can't get my head around your obsession for lockdown.

    I could take a guess though

    It's the reality of the situation.

    You can rant and rave and call names and act the internet edgelord, but that doesn't change reality.


  • #3255
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,251 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    440Hertz wrote: »
    There’s no reason other than there’s an irrational and very paranoid side to Northern Irish politics that is already seeing this as a “power grab” by nationalists, trying to isolate them from mother England. If being ridden with COVID-19 is good enough for Manchester, they’ll see it as good enough for Belfast and Derry.

    You might as well be trying to herd cats as talk to that aspect of politics up there. Everything, including totally pragmatic life / death health issues will ultimately be seen through a unionist vs nationalist and sectarian lens by those in power.

    Anything that involves deep cooperation with the republic is a major problem to them. Look at Brexit. They were offered special status that would have seen them simultaneously in the EU and the UK and they went out of their way to ensure that wouldn’t happen smoothly, if at all, so the result is likely to be regional poverty and huge self inflicted damage to agrifood, manufacturing, private sector services, FDI etc etc

    Can't we just invade them?

    Wouldn't that be easier?


  • #3256
    billyhead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,783 ✭✭✭✭billyhead


    GazzaL wrote: »
    I was talking to an elderly woman today, in her 80s, who told me she's had enough of the lockdowns. A lot of people will see level 5 as being optional. If you want to lock yourself in your house, fair enough. But most people will just get on with their lives.

    Agree. I know people who are at that age who would live life as normal as possible irrespective of lockdowns.


  • #3257
    Jinglejangle69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,152 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Boggles wrote: »
    It's the reality of the situation.

    You can rant and rave and call names, but that doesn't change reality.

    Who called anyone names?


  • #3258
    landofthetree
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,464 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    [QUOTE=mohawk;114947463]It’s the same HSE who run the hospitals that run out of beds every single year. Leaving hundreds a day on trolley’s in corridors. They want level 5 but I don’t trust they will do anything in that time to try and prevent another lockdown.
    What did they learn about transmission when they actually were contact tracing? The heaviest restrictions should be focused on where the risks are highest.
    Are there many people in NPHET who specialise in human behaviour? Would they not be telling them the compliance will deteriorate as time goes by.[/QUOTE]

    The same HSE that we are told is underfunded.

    It's some joke.
    Ireland spends €4,706 per head of population on healthcare, one-third more than the average across 35 member countries of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

    The State’s spend last year was the seventh highest per person in the OECD.


  • #3259
    pauldry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,490 ✭✭✭pauldry


    If Level 5 is brought in EVERY business should open up fully in protest.

    Its their livelihoods.

    Also all Government salaries should be cut to zero until we are out of lockdown.

    PUP for them gubberment pups


  • #3260
    Seamai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭Seamai


    mloc123 wrote: »
    Yup, only the other night on Prime Time the DUP were on saying that they will do what they want and the south should do the same and not be worrying about them.

    Never thought I'd find myself singing from the same hymn sheet as someone from the DUP but he's probably right. Instead of waiting for an all island approach which might never happen we need to be looking after our own back yard even if that means stricter border controls as long as COVID-19 is a problem.


  • #3261
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,565 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Jinglejangle69 wrote: »
    Who called anyone names?

    Apply false narrative towards someone.

    I used names for short.

    Again though, it's just deflection from reality.


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  • #3262
    440Hertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭440Hertz


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Can't we just invade them?

    Wouldn't that be easier?

    See. That’s the kind of stuff that makes them even more paranoid. We need to be assuring unionism that this is an extremely pragmatic response and that we fully respect the GFA and the principles of democratic consent.

    At the moment, I would park politics of unionism vs nationalism and just work on medical pragmatism. This is too serious to be fecking around with politics and parallel issues.


  • #3263
    harr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭harr


    Neighbour of mine had it a couple of weeks ago with no symptoms, she worked in a retail setting.
    It took the tracing team 10 days to inform her she had been a close contact. By that stage she was well over it and only a few days away from coming out of isolation.
    The only reason she got tested was because her close contact informed all work colleagues.
    So track and trace is definitely as good as useless at this stage.


  • #3264
    Strumms
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,913 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    techdiver wrote: »
    What sort of nonsense are you spouting? If you keep saying that stupid soundbite it doesn't make it correct.

    So now parents wanting their children to be educated is not "parenting" in your opinion? Children have lost out on so much education so far and this is especially damaging for the youngest. But of course you know that as you seem to be an expert on the matter.

    It the society we voted for that requires dual income households to survive nowadays. Look back to the Budget in 2000 to when this all started with the Tax individualisation measures which was touted as a pro woman measure but was essentially anti-family measure that took income out of the pockets of single income households, by reducing the transferrable tax allowances between spouses.

    If you close the schools you shut the economy down. It's as simple as that. No childish rhetoric about parents "parenting" will change that reality.

    We Want the children, teachers, staff, parents, ALL of us in our communities to be well, that is the priority, what nonsense are YOU spouting ?

    The alternatives to learning in classroom settings have and are being discussed.

    But I’m glad you are advocating directly the schools act as babysitters .. shows further the angle you are coming from and the disingenuous standpoint of your ‘argument’.


  • #3265
    mloc123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


    Boggles wrote: »
    It's the reality of the situation.

    Not often I agree with you, but it's the truth.

    My friend was complaining about impending lockdown etc.. the problem is people confuse what is fair with what is sensible.

    None of this situation is fair, but really there are very few other options as we see with every country around the world.

    I don't think anyone actually wants a lockdown, some people just accept that it is needed while others think it is unfair and will refuse to believe it is needed.


  • #3266
    landofthetree
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,464 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    440Hertz wrote: »
    What I don’t get is why the tracing can’t be a lot more self-driven and automated. Most people don’t want to spread this, other than a few psychos, and frankly high can’t do much about them anyway.

    If we extended the COVID-19 app, so if you get a diagnosis you could simply log in and go through your own track and trace. Figure out yourself who you’d been in contact with over say the last 5 day window. Put their phone numbers in & the app would simply alert them to go get a test.

    I think most people would be diligent enough to do that.

    The app could maintain the layer of privacy protection, much like you don’t know someone’s swiped you on Tinder.

    Beyond that, the tracking teams could focus on more complicated cases and people who aren’t tech savvy.

    The app has been a bit of a disappointment.

    Only 3091 people who have got covid have uploaded random IDs.

    Isnt that a really low percentage of cases since its launch?


  • #3267
    Goldrickssan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭Goldrickssan


    Will Leo go on PUP for level 5?


  • #3268
    Necro
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 56,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    440Hertz wrote: »
    What I don’t get is why the tracing can’t be a lot more self-driven and automated. Most people don’t want to spread this, other than a few psychos, and frankly high can’t do much about them anyway.

    If we extended the COVID-19 app, so if you get a diagnosis you could simply log in and go through your own track and trace. Figure out yourself who you’d been in contact with over say the last 5 day window. Put their phone numbers in & the app would simply alert them to go get a test.

    The App currently has only 1.3 million active users, with 2.08 million downloads.

    Just like everything presently - the App is an advisory, what you're talking about would take far too much effort and cost to enforce, mandatory installation of an App so people would self-police.

    It's a fine idea in theory, but in practice it's a little different unfortunately.

    Moderator: Current Affairs/IMHO, Soccer, Pro Wrestling



  • #3269
    Ger Roe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    440Hertz wrote: »
    What I don’t get is why the tracing can’t be a lot more self-driven and automated. Most people don’t want to spread this, other than a few psychos, and frankly high can’t do much about them anyway.

    If we extended the COVID-19 app, so if you get a diagnosis you could simply log in and go through your own track and trace. Figure out yourself who you’d been in contact with over say the last 5 day window. Put their phone numbers in & the app would simply alert them to go get a test.

    I think most people would be diligent enough to do that.

    The app could maintain the layer of privacy protection, much like you don’t know someone’s swiped you on Tinder.

    Beyond that, the tracking teams could focus on more complicated cases and people who aren’t tech savvy.

    I am not sure how effective the call to take the app was. I don't think it hit the target take up level required and then many people deleted it when the battery issue arose. I have also noticed that the daily health check confirmation numbers are now much lower than they were - less people interacting with it.

    I don't think most people would be diligent enough to use the app, if most were not diligent enough to download it.


  • #3270
    SleetAndSnow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,757 ✭✭✭SleetAndSnow


    https://twitter.com/AlanFarrell/status/1317079759030026240?s=20

    Looks like Fine Gael are blaming NPHET for leaking to the media. He has also disabled replied to said tweet

    Total opposite imo. Last nights briefing they made it very clear they weren't saying anything about their meeting, and RTE article states that the government sources confirmed the info.


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  • #3271
    DrSpongeBobz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭DrSpongeBobz


    This thread going to reach capacity by Monday


This discussion has been closed.
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