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N17 - Knock to Collooney [design & planning underway]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭ MY BAD


    Very interesting discussion. What would the options be on the country Sligo route assuming the new road goes west of Charlestown? The majority of people in south Sligo travel towards Sligo town daily. I'd imagine one of the routes closest to Tubbercurry would be more favourable? Would traffic from Ballymote be considered? On the N83 I used to travel that road regularly, it has to be one of the worst national roads in the country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,117 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    I don't think the routing of a National Primary road should be too concerned with small towns. The vast majority of the population of Mayo would be accessing the new N17 via the N5 anyway, whether it is east or west of Charlestown is only a few minutes driving in the difference and really makes no difference to regional connectivity.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,301 Mod ✭✭✭✭ spacetweek


    Of course a really radical idea would be to re-route the N17 via Ballina. That way there'd be no need for N26 or N60 Claremorris-Castlebar upgrades.
    Would make Galway-Sligo a lot longer though, but it would take in bigger places along the way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,253 ✭✭✭ serfboard


    marno21 wrote: »
    Tuam-Ballyhaunis: There is some merit in there being a national road into Ballyhaunis from the south to meet the N60 there.
    The N17 meets the N60 at Claremorris. Think that's enough meself.
    marno21 wrote: »
    It's also the main route from Galway to Dunmore and Ballyhaunis.
    Don't think that either of those merit an N road.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,128 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Getting rid of the entire N83 would likely be difficult. The N83 north of Tuam has an AADT of 4.3k, which is higher than the N60 either side of Ballyhaunis. It's also higher than the N63 at Abbeyknockmoy. This debate is more a debate about what a national secondary road should be more than anything else.

    Re: N17 routing around Charlestown. There is strategic traffic from Ballina and mid Mayo that could be mopped up by the new N17 rather than the regional roads around mid Mayo. The R375 from Swinford to Kilkelly for example is a shocking road. Intersecting the N5 west of Charlestown rather than east of Charlestown would be far better for this reason. There is little of note east of Charlestown to merit an east of Charlestown routing.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,665 ✭✭✭ Cosmo Kramer


    serfboard wrote: »
    Very interesting that you say that.

    The more direct route from Tuam to Charlestown would be via the N83. The speculation that I've heard is that the church lobbied to get the "main" road routed via Knock.

    In any event, the N83 north of Tuam is an awful road and should really be regional. I would think that most traffic around Ballyhaunis is East-West rather than North-South, so numbers like 1000 north of Ballyhaunis wouldn't surprise me.

    Just on that, this Irish road map from around the time that the road network was renumbered actually shows the N17 routing via Dunmore and Ballyhaunis. Parts of what is today the N17 north of Claremorris are minor roads not even considered important enough to be shown on the map. So I could well believe that something like what you suggest might have happened that resulted in the routing being changed.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=69432&d=1230829831


  • Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭ friedcircuits


    Hi all, my house and others including housing estates etc are on one proposed route around Tubbercurry. I generally don't worry about things but this is abit scary if I'm honest. Does anyone have any experience with this kinda thing or what to expect etc? Only two years in the house so not sure what to think, and how long will this be dragged out etc. Also no planning permission to extend so that could halt family starting. Ah scared myself more now!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,117 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    marno21 wrote: »
    Re: N17 routing around Charlestown. There is strategic traffic from Ballina and mid Mayo that could be mopped up by the new N17 rather than the regional roads around mid Mayo. The R375 from Swinford to Kilkelly for example is a shocking road. Intersecting the N5 west of Charlestown rather than east of Charlestown would be far better for this reason. There is little of note east of Charlestown to merit an east of Charlestown routing.

    Bar traffic starting journeys on the R375 or other similar roads, the vast majority of traffic in Mayo will use the N5 to access the new N17. Once on the N5, it doesn't really matter whether the N17 is east or west of Charlestown. There is less than 10km between the western-most and eastern-most routes, thats a few minutes driving on a decent quality road, nobody is going to opt for a longer drive on a much worse quality road instead. There is little of note north west of Charlestown to merit a west of Charlestown routing. The east routing would at least make it more accessible to the population of Ballymote which is bigger than anything north west of Charlestown (all options are within 5km of Tubbercurry so east or west doesn't matter there).

    But like I said, these are trivial enough issues when talking about a National Primary Road. Engineering and ultimately cost will be the biggest influencers. I can see the grey route being preferred at the northern end, hugging the train line for a couple of km and then 3km online upgrade before joining the N4 at the existing roundabout. It would be good if the relatively straight stretch a few km north of Tubbercurry could be incorporated too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 918 ✭✭✭ riddlinrussell


    Hi all, my house and others including housing estates etc are on one proposed route around Tubbercurry. I generally don't worry about things but this is abit scary if I'm honest. Does anyone have any experience with this kinda thing or what to expect etc? Only two years in the house so not sure what to think, and how long will this be dragged out etc. Also no planning permission to extend so that could halt family starting. Ah scared myself more now!

    Hi, the forum often looks at infra like this almost from an academic perspective, or at a minimum as 'its near to me and I know there will be x issue with it' rather than the construction/planning directly impacting their property.

    There will likely be a few people here with experience of the process but I'd personally suggest emailing the contact on the project website with your concerns and asking them if they can provide you with some info.

    Its likely they will have a team designated for liaison with affected landowners, if not already then soon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 667 ✭✭✭ BelfastVanMan


    Hi, the forum often looks at infra like this almost from an academic perspective, or at a minimum as 'its near to me and I know there will be x issue with it' rather than the construction/planning directly impacting their property.

    There will likely be a few people here with experience of the process but I'd personally suggest emailing the contact on the project website with your concerns and asking them if they can provide you with some info.

    Its likely they will have a team designated for liaison with affected landowners, if not already then soon.

    Quick question... was the R375 ever the N26? Possibly before 2006, when the N5 Charlestown bypass was completed?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭ DumbBrunette


    No, it never was
    Quick question... was the R375 ever the N26? Possibly before 2006, when the N5 Charlestown bypass was completed?


  • Registered Users Posts: 667 ✭✭✭ BelfastVanMan


    No, it never was

    Ah, ok, thank you. :-)


  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭ DumbBrunette


    They normally bend over backwards to avoid house demos, there's pretty much no chance they'd plough through a housing estate when alternative options are available.

    Hi all, my house and others including housing estates etc are on one proposed route around Tubbercurry. I generally don't worry about things but this is abit scary if I'm honest. Does anyone have any experience with this kinda thing or what to expect etc? Only two years in the house so not sure what to think, and how long will this be dragged out etc. Also no planning permission to extend so that could halt family starting. Ah scared myself more now!


  • Registered Users Posts: 918 ✭✭✭ riddlinrussell


    They normally bend over backwards to avoid house demos, there's pretty much no chance they'd plough through a housing estate when alternative options are available.

    Yeah I would take the current 'route options' with a heaping of salt, there's likely one option they already have in mind as their 'gold' route, and several good alternatives (these will make the second phase options stage). This initial stage is basically to ensure they aren't 'railroading' their preferred option through, they basically have to give reasons why each route should be considered/discounted. Houses along the route would be a mark against it, the route with the least houses/planning headaches is probably going to be a good contender for the preferred route option


  • Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭ friedcircuits


    They normally bend over backwards to avoid house demos, there's pretty much no chance they'd plough through a housing estate when alternative options are available.

    I was thinking as much but still easy to over think! I'd imagine routes to the east or west essentially a bypass is the idea. But surely inevitably there will be some people's homes CPO'd.


  • Registered Users Posts: 918 ✭✭✭ riddlinrussell


    I was thinking as much but still easy to over think! I'd imagine routes to the east or west essentially a bypass is the idea. But surely inevitably there will be some people's homes CPO'd.

    With a project of this scale it's practically unavoidable, but all other factors being equal they would choose the route that results in the least number of CPOs, obviously they may go for more if it means saving millions overall on the route due to easier terrain etc, but planning like this doesn't happen in a bubble where they only factor in the raw numbers, they don't want the project being held up by large groups of angry homeowners any more than homeowners want to get their homes knocked for a road.


  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭ DumbBrunette


    By way of comparison, no dwelling houses were knocked for the M17 Tuam to Athenry motorway - only 2 agricultural buildings were demolished, that's it.
    I was thinking as much but still easy to over think! I'd imagine routes to the east or west essentially a bypass is the idea. But surely inevitably there will be some people's homes CPO'd.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,665 ✭✭✭ Cosmo Kramer


    Although the road is incredibly squiggly as a result.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6 bod68


    hi , ive only just seen the suggested {coloured} options for this route, if your house is situated on one of the coloured routes does that mean it will most definitly be cpo?


  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭ DumbBrunette


    No, this is the route selection stage, meaning they have to select a single route based on lots of criteria like cost, environmental impact etc.

    One of the biggest considerations is the number of houses that would have to be CPOd, they will generally try to avoid that unless there is no other alternative.
    bod68 wrote: »
    hi , ive only just seen the suggested {coloured} options for this route, if your house is situated on one of the coloured routes does that mean it will most definitly be cpo?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,665 ✭✭✭ Cosmo Kramer


    bod68 wrote: »
    hi , ive only just seen the suggested {coloured} options for this route, if your house is situated on one of the coloured routes does that mean it will most definitly be cpo?

    No, not at all. Just don't try applying for planning permission for anything for the next couple of years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6 bod68


    Hi, this is all new to me so I'm just wondering if out of all of the coloured routes indicated ......is there one which is the perfered route ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,665 ✭✭✭ Cosmo Kramer


    Not yet, at least not officially. Realistically in the Roads office they will probably have a preferred route in mind. It will probably be the one that requires the least amount of demolition of houses and follows a broadly similar track to the current road.

    It probably sounds a bit cynical but the selection process is often a bit of a tick box exercise for these kind of things. Usually they will just do what they want to do. Not beyond possibility that they'll also put a few outlandish options in there, such as ones that involve flattening housing estates, to make it easier to narrow it down to the one they actually wanted to pick from the start.

    Just reading that back - 15 years working in the public service has made me really cynical about these things!


  • Registered Users Posts: 918 ✭✭✭ riddlinrussell


    Not yet, at least not officially. Realistically in the Roads office they will probably have a preferred route in mind. It will probably be the one that requires the least amount of demolition of houses and follows a broadly similar track to the current road.

    It probably sounds a bit cynical but the selection process is often a bit of a tick box exercise for these kind of things. Usually they will just do what they want to do. Not beyond possibility that they'll also put a few outlandish options in there, such as ones that involve flattening housing estates, to make it easier to narrow it down to the one they actually wanted to pick from the start.

    Just reading that back - 15 years working in the public service has made me really cynical about these things!

    I wouldn't doubt that there's a preferred route already in the heads of the planners, but while it might be viewed that way, this process, at least when it gets down to the narrower selection of routes, can provide more than just a box tick, they have to do due diligence on checking out the routes and there's nothing to say they won't either find some issues with their preferred route, or discover there's a better one and come around to picking it.

    I think its also good for accountability, you can see which routes were up for selection and can at least make a submission asking what made them choose route x over route y.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6 bod68


    Hi, out of interest, what colour route do you think will make the final choice and why? ( I understand they have to take a lot of things into consideration but I'm just trying to understand more about it and wondering about other people's point of views that have better insight than I do) thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭ friedcircuits


    bod68 wrote: »
    Hi, out of interest, what colour route do you think will make the final choice and why? ( I understand they have to take a lot of things into consideration but I'm just trying to understand more about it and wondering about other people's point of views that have better insight than I do) thanks

    I'd be interested in this also. Had a callback from engineer this morning. Nothing useful to be honest, said to fill out feedback form as consultants etc take all into consideration. I'm thinking what if it's only me that fills it in??? 😂

    I said to him I felt as not alot of people are actually aware of it or what's going on.

    Long story short I know as much now as I did last week.

    Anyone else on the route here, get a call or talked to anyone?


  • Registered Users Posts: 918 ✭✭✭ riddlinrussell


    I'd be interested in this also. Had a callback from engineer this morning. Nothing useful to be honest, said to fill out feedback form as consultants etc take all into consideration. I'm thinking what if it's only me that fills it in??? ��

    I said to him I felt as not alot of people are actually aware of it or what's going on.

    Long story short I know as much now as I did last week.

    Anyone else on the route here, get a call or talked to anyone?

    If you're in an estate/have nearby neighbours, would be worth asking them if they are aware of the plans, if there's a bunch of you making representations then it will definitely be a serious consideration. If you can organise representations now then you'll be in a better position if your route is still on the agenda in the second round to strongly oppose it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭ friedcircuits


    If you're in an estate/have nearby neighbours, would be worth asking them if they are aware of the plans, if there's a bunch of you making representations then it will definitely be a serious consideration. If you can organise representations now then you'll be in a better position if your route is still on the agenda in the second round to strongly oppose it.

    There is estates in the corridor alright but I'm not in an estate. I was thinking I might chat to a neighbor whose been in the area longer than me.

    I'm not saying I will be the only feedback sender but surely all feedback will be looked at not based on the amount for one route?!

    No planning now for at least 12-18 months. I asked him what happened 20 years ago and now with this pandemic and money, things might go tits up again, he said it could!

    It's hardly the path with the less resistance is the preferred route?!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,117 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    I'd be interested in this also. Had a callback from engineer this morning. Nothing useful to be honest, said to fill out feedback form as consultants etc take all into consideration. I'm thinking what if it's only me that fills it in??? ��

    I said to him I felt as not alot of people are actually aware of it or what's going on.

    Long story short I know as much now as I did last week.

    Anyone else on the route here, get a call or talked to anyone?

    In fairness, if they are ringing people up and asking them to have a look, as well as putting out on various platforms, I dont think there is much more they can do to make people aware of it. Word of mouth is always a good way for it to spread so you mentioning it to people can only be good.

    I dont think there is much else to know right now other than these are possible routes for the road. More detail comes later after they have selected a corridor and start actual design work. People can offer their opinions on one or more corridors, positive or negative. It may or may not make a difference but its an opportunity to get your schpake in!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭ friedcircuits


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    In fairness, if they are ringing people up and asking them to have a look, as well as putting out on various platforms, I dont think there is much more they can do to make people aware of it. Word of mouth is always a good way for it to spread so you mentioning it to people can only be good.

    I dont think there is much else to know right now other than these are possible routes for the road. More detail comes later after they have selected a corridor and start actual design work. People can offer their opinions on one or more corridors, positive or negative. It may or may not make a difference but its an opportunity to get your schpake in!

    Not many of the slots where booked on the site! Indeed I gave my feedback and positives and negative of routes. I'm sure everyone thinks it's a great idea but boil it down and it'll be - but not in my back yard!

    I'm going to try and get a few people to make abit of noise and go from there. Who knows could be the start of my political career! 🀔😂


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