Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings

paw patrol · 15-10-2020 11:28AM

topper75 wrote: »

History is littered with examples of blind trust in government not ending well.

i wish this post was an advertisement that ran constantly on all medias at the moment.

_Kaiser_ · 15-10-2020 11:29AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There is no ban, it's public health advice nothing more, you can't get in trouble for ignoring it.

The media messaging doesn't point this out though, nor does the language in the announcements.

The Government has been called out repeatedly for their deliberate obfuscation of the requirements (and taken to court over it), but they're still at it.

It's like how the "don't travel out of your county" message is legally only advisory, yet we still have AGS setting up checkpoints to brow-beat people into compliance (most won't want to argue with a Garda regardless of the legality of his/her advice)

John_Rambo · 15-10-2020 11:29AM

RobitTV wrote: »

The decision to ban household visits is the final nail in the coffin for many people who will now face months of isolation.

Anyone with a bit of cop has been doing this for a month at this stage. Shame everyone didn't do the obvious thing but some people just need to be told what to do.

Mitch Connor · 15-10-2020 11:34AM

RobitTV wrote: »

Because we have gone through one of Europe's strictest lockdowns. They have ignore the wishes of businesses to remain open and trade, they have damaged the jobs market which will mean 320,000 people will let go in 2021.

What about the future of our young people? who will face years of economic hardship thanks to government decision making. Will they be able to get a secure job when they leave school or college?

We are running a budget deficit of 21 billion euro, which will have to sorted out with years of austerity down the road....

We are now going backwards again. You should ask the people on PUP who have rent and multiple children to feed how they are coping.

But that doesn't get to why you think they want to do these things? Why you think they are the goals rather than simply their reaction to trying not to be to blame for killing people.

If they wanted to do as much damage as possible why not go into L5 lockdown the second NPHET gave them the recommendation to do so?

drunkmonkey · 15-10-2020 11:36AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

If the restrictions were largely removed from everything else but mask use was retained as a measure (i am not going to comment on usefulness as that is not relevant) life would return to normal or extremely close to it and the economy would have a chance at getting back.

This is the greatest load of nonsense i've read today. You still don't understand that they do not stop or protect you from getting covid.
Look if you were correct we should have a national 2 week mandatory mask mandate in all situations with no exceptions including at home. Your completly incorrect though that's why it's not being discussed as a solution, I'm not going digging it out now but I think it's for every 100,000 people who wear a mask correctly for a week including at home we stop 4 cases. If those 100,000 don't use them correctly we increase spread.

Tenzor07 · 15-10-2020 11:38AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

im sure it wouldnt cause issues with our most critical of needs, food supplies etc!

Well, the country is at war with the invisible enemy, for all those who want level 5+ lockdowns and think everyone should work from home and retail should close, it's all well and good for them, but it's not good for food retail workers to risk their lives when others don't?
Meat processing plants are the best places for the Virus to spread, they need to close.
Everyone can be issued with boxes of non-perishable foods enough to last for 2 months.
Any exercise can be done within 100m of your home with no mixing with others from outside your household.

Nothing else will do if we want to eliminate the Virus like New Zealand!

RobitTV · 15-10-2020 11:39AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

But that doesn't get to why you think they want to do these things? Why you think they are the goals rather than simply their reaction to trying not to be to blame for killing people.

If they wanted to do as much damage as possible why not go into L5 lockdown the second NPHET gave them the recommendation to do so?

But they will eventually go to Level 5, because they constantly kick the can down the long road. They are utterly directionless and have zero critical thinking skills. Holohan has been the individual which has been steering the wheel for months.

They keep on moving the goal posts and this makes the public lose trust and confidence. Michael Martin and Varadkar don't have any actual principles, they go the same direction as the wind blows on each passing day.

Mitch Connor · 15-10-2020 11:41AM

RobitTV wrote: »

But they will eventually go to Level 5, because they constantly kick the can down the long road. They are utterly directionless and have zero critical thinking skills. Holohan has been the individual which has been steering the wheel for months.

They keep on moving the goal posts and this makes the public lose trust and confidence. Michael Martin and Varadkar don't have any actual principles, they go the same direction as the wind blows on each passing day.

How can you argue they are directionless while also stating their intention (ie.direction) is to cause as much damage as possible?

Also, you still haven't given your reasoning as to what you believe the motivation behind causing as much damage as possible is.

drunkmonkey · 15-10-2020 11:42AM

Level 5 isn't an option if we don't have any plan past it, we tried it already with no plan and it was an utter failure as we're now back to crazy public health advice.

Mitch Connor · 15-10-2020 11:45AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

This is the greatest load of nonsense i've read today. You still don't understand that they do not stop or protect you from getting covid.
Look if you were correct we should have a national 2 week mandatory mask mandate in all situations with no exceptions including at home. Your completly incorrect though that's why it's not being discussed as a solution, I'm not going digging it out now but I think it's for every 100,000 people who wear a mask correctly for a week including at home we stop 4 cases. If those 100,000 don't use them correctly we increase spread.

Nah, what you have posted is the greatest load of nonsense.

What do you mean 'if you were correct'? FFS. I never said masks were the solution. So what are you talking about?

The eficacy of masks has never been the point of this discussion nor anything I have said.

Masks working or not working is not the point.

You said masks have ground life to a halt. you have said masks pushed people into poverty. two simple sentences. there is no discussion of eficacy in those two sentences. I don't know why you are having such a hard time understanding the points you made.

RobitTV · 15-10-2020 11:48AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

How can you argue they are directionless while also stating their intention (ie.direction) is to cause as much damage as possible?

Also, you still haven't given your reasoning as to what you believe the motivation behind causing as much damage as possible is.

The damage has ALREADY been done, they will not change the path moving forward. And when Holohan demands Level 5 within weeks, they will approve of that recommendation.

Varadkar goes on Claire Byrne Live and bitches about Holohan and then they are back on the same messaging within one day. Are you telling me that is someone who has a direction? :pac:

FG had a direction back in March when it came to the lockdown measures. But they are like headless chickens in recent months.

Mitch Connor · 15-10-2020 11:49AM

RobitTV wrote: »

The damage has ALREADY been done, they will not change the path moving forward. And when Holohan demands Level 5 within weeks, they will approve of that recommendation.

Varadkar goes on Claire Byrne Live and bitches about Holohan and then they are back on the same messaging within one day. Are you telling me that is someone who has a direction? :pac:

FG had a direction back in March when it came to the lockdown measures. But they are like headless chickens in recent months.

I didn't say they had a direction - you did. You said their intetion (ie.Direction) was to cause as much damage as possible. You then said they are directionless. It can't be both.

RobitTV · 15-10-2020 11:54AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I didn't say they had a direction - you did. You said their intetion (ie.Direction) was to cause as much damage as possible. You then said they are directionless. It can't be both.

Considering the damage has ALREADY taken place, haven't I just proven my point? they have already created and almost completed the damage I have accused them of doing. (They had a direction before the summer)

They are directionless now. Because a second lockdown would be devastating and even MM and LV know this. But they have to try and keep a balance between public health advice and the economy. Something they have previously failed to achieve.

They are now worried about what to do next.

Lundstram · 15-10-2020 11:58AM

I see the grief junkies are going after the GAA to cease all activity now. That’s the latest bandwagon.

All those inter county games are due to be televised, a lot free to air which will give people a well needed boost and something to look forward to and watch at home with their families. I know not every likes the GAA but those of us who do welcome the chance to watch games.

Twitter is such a cesspool of grief junkies, any other opinion except lockdown everything gets shouted down and you’re labelled as a granny killer.

I’m pretty sure our top politicians take notice of opinion on twitter too. Harris and Varadkar are very vocal on there.

Starting to feel quite down myself now and normally I’m a strong willed person but all this is very tiring now. I can’t imagine how those who lost their jobs must feel, quite lucky in that regard myself. Our lives are been taken away bit by bit. Existing to work now.

With no end in sight, what’s the fcuking point anymore.

Mitch Connor · 15-10-2020 11:59AM

RobitTV wrote: »

Considering the damage has ALREADY taken place, haven't I just proven my point? they have already created and almost completed the damage I have accused them of doing. (They had a direction before the summer)

They are directionless now. Because a second lockdown would be devastating and even MM and LV know this. But they have to try and keep a balance between public health advice and the economy. Something they have previously failed to achieve.

They are now worried about what to do next.

no, it doesn't prove your point.

You said they have no intention of removing restrictions until they hvae caused as much damage as possible - that means their direction is to cause as much damage as possible.

Causing damage does not mean the results were the intended goals - or that they didn't try to mitigate the damage. Surely the money put into the covid payments are an attempt at mitigation rather than causing as much damage as possible.

If their goal is to cause as much damage as possible why would they be trying to balance between economic and health issues? Trying to balance doesn't equal causing as much damage as possible.

Surely if they know a second lock down would be devestating, and their goal is to cause as much damage as possible, which is what you said, they would jump at a second lockdown?

drunkmonkey · 15-10-2020 12:00PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Nah, what you have posted is the greatest load of nonsense.

What do you mean 'if you were correct'? FFS. I never said masks were the solution. So what are you talking about?

You said we can go back to close to normal and drop other restrictions. I called that nonsense it is and you have no evidence to back up such a statement.

From the Special Committee on Covid-19 Response debate with Professor Heneghan director of the centre for evidence-based medicine at the University of Oxford.
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/special_committee_on_covid_19_response/2020-08-13/4/

There is a small bit of evidence that shows that if one has influenza in one’s household - a child, for example - and if one wears a mask for one week in the house, one can reduce one’s risk of influenza or likely illness by about 10%. However, one has to completely adhere to mask wearing for the whole week. If one stops adhering to it, as 50% of people did, one loses all the effect. That is one of the problems.

The second issue is that the evidence comparing cloth masks to surgical masks or the N95s shows clearly that cloth masks are worse and may actually increase the risk of infection. Therefore, that is why they are not recommended in hospitals or in health professional settings.

What happens in these situations of uncertainty is that the opinion divides. Someone thinks mask are a good idea while someone else does not think they are and that people should not wear them. That is why we end up with people proposing them more and more. They say people should put them on in schools, pubs and shops. However, there is no clear evidence. They use observational data to inform their decision. If one looks at what has happened in the UK, for instance, it put masks in on 24 July. They were supposed to reduce the risk of infection by 40% over the next two weeks. In fact, infections detected have gone up. In effect, people are not looking at the evidence.

When Norway looked at this, it said that at low circulation, the public health consequences were so minimal that it was not clear they worked and, even if they did work, it reckoned about 200,000 people would have to wear a mask fully for a week to prevent one infection.

RobitTV · 15-10-2020 12:07PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

no, it doesn't prove your point.

You said they have no intention of removing restrictions until they hvae caused as much damage as possible - that means their direction is to cause as much damage as possible.

Causing damage does not mean the results were the intended goals - or that they didn't try to mitigate the damage. Surely the money put into the covid payments are an attempt at mitigation rather than causing as much damage as possible.

If their goal is to cause as much damage as possible why would they be trying to balance between economic and health issues? Trying to balance doesn't equal causing as much damage as possible.

Surely if they know a second lock down would be devestating, and their goal is to cause as much damage as possible, which is what you said, they would jump at a second lockdown?

But as I said previously, Holohan will eventually get his way and we will be heading to Level 5. = Level 5 meaning the maximum damage to society and the economic interests of this country. Wait another few weeks and they will move on Level 5 - I am saying 100% they will move to another lockdown. This is a reality that can no longer be ignored.

Level 4 is already in place in the border counties since last night. The situation will change nationally within time.

The dust has settled and the damage is near completion. Level 5 will add fuel to the fire for people with families and those running a small to medium sized business.

Years of austerity measures will mean we won't be able to afford a secure health service, education or transport system for the future. A budget deficit of 21 billion euro is serious matter for a economy and country of our size.

weldoninhio · 15-10-2020 12:13PM

Lundstram wrote: »

I see the grief junkies are going after the GAA to cease all activity now. That’s the latest bandwagon.

All those inter county games are due to be televised, a lot free to air which will give people a well needed boost and something to look forward to and watch at home with their families. I know not every likes the GAA but those of us who do welcome the chance to watch games.

Twitter is such a cesspool of grief junkies, any other opinion except lockdown everything gets shouted down and you’re labelled as a granny killer.

I’m pretty sure our top politicians take notice of opinion on twitter too. Harris and Varadkar are very vocal on there.

Starting to feel quite down myself now and normally I’m a strong willed person but all this is very tiring now. I can’t imagine how those who lost their jobs must feel, quite lucky in that regard myself. Our lives are been taken away bit by bit. Existing to work now.

With no end in sight, what’s the fcuking point anymore.

Follow the laws, and fcuk the "guidelines". Life is a lot better that way.

weldoninhio · 15-10-2020 12:17PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You said we can go back to close to normal and drop other restrictions. I called that nonsense it is and you have no evidence to back up such a statement.

From the Special Committee on Covid-19 Response debate with Professor Heneghan director of the centre for evidence-based medicine at the University of Oxford.
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/special_committee_on_covid_19_response/2020-08-13/4/

There is a small bit of evidence that shows that if one has influenza in one’s household - a child, for example - and if one wears a mask for one week in the house, one can reduce one’s risk of influenza or likely illness by about 10%. However, one has to completely adhere to mask wearing for the whole week. If one stops adhering to it, as 50% of people did, one loses all the effect. That is one of the problems.

The second issue is that the evidence comparing cloth masks to surgical masks or the N95s shows clearly that cloth masks are worse and may actually increase the risk of infection. Therefore, that is why they are not recommended in hospitals or in health professional settings.

What happens in these situations of uncertainty is that the opinion divides. Someone thinks mask are a good idea while someone else does not think they are and that people should not wear them. That is why we end up with people proposing them more and more. They say people should put them on in schools, pubs and shops. However, there is no clear evidence. They use observational data to inform their decision. If one looks at what has happened in the UK, for instance, it put masks in on 24 July. They were supposed to reduce the risk of infection by 40% over the next two weeks. In fact, infections detected have gone up. In effect, people are not looking at the evidence.

When Norway looked at this, it said that at low circulation, the public health consequences were so minimal that it was not clear they worked and, even if they did work, it reckoned about 200,000 people would have to wear a mask fully for a week to prevent one infection.

Just quoting this so that if the hard of thinking mask zealots miss it the first time they might see it the second time.

charlie14 · 15-10-2020 12:22PM

patnor1011 wrote: »

Yet you are eager to follow feller who without a shred of medical or science education or qualification constantly spouting on media about covid and vaccines. The answer : He donated and invested a lot of money in vaccine companies. One of frequent posters on vaccine thread even proclaimed that since he is investing in pharma for more than 10 years he can be called medical expert. Stuff like this is precious. One can not be expert without education but other one can. This only prove that people do have different opinions and you would get much further accepting that not everyone share your view on most of the things.
You too should cop yourself on.

I told you to cop yourself on in relation to a claim by an absolute con man that Ireland has 80% immunity.
As in "at least put a bit of thought into his rubbish before you go spreading it"
80% immunity is on or over and beyond the threshold for herd immunity.
Yet yesterday we had close to 1,100 new cases with a positive rate of over 6%
Clearly somebody`s figures are miles out. So unless you are saying that NPHET are faking the test results, the numbers of tests and the hospital admissions then how have we the 80% immunity this chancer is claiming ?

walus · 15-10-2020 12:22PM

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

The fact is our airports should all be closed anyway, we have no hope if we are importing the virus as well as having it spread in the country.

Nox, how many cases can be traced back to international travel?

15-10-2020 12:25PM

I listened to Stephen donnelly on newstalk talk today and how pat kenny didn't pick apart some points was beyond me.

Donnelly broke down the tracing and stated that over 20% of the cases need thorough investigation as to tracing, they seldom trace the source. He said then that 20% have no apparent cause and are a mystery to NEPHET, which we have seen before.

However, they absolutely know this is not spread in school settings. This in his words when speaking about GAA celebrations is an "Extremely contagious virus".
If it's that contagious why are we not spraying streets WUHAN style to counter all the discarded masks which are giving off airborne virus particles in the warm sun and wet evaporating air???

You could liberally say they don't know how it's spreading HALF the time, thems the stats not my words.

any doubts, listen to the podcast back or whatever on line.

drunkmonkey · 15-10-2020 12:27PM

charlie14 wrote: »

I told you to cop yourself on in relation to a claim by an absolute con man that Ireland has 80% immunity.
As in "at least put a bit of thought into his rubbish before you go spreading it"
80% immunity is on or over and beyond the threshold for herd immunity.
Yet yesterday we had close to 1,100 new cases with a positive rate of over 6%
Clearly somebody`s figures are miles out. So unless you are saying that NPHET are faking the test results, the numbers of tests and the hospital admissions then how have we the 80% immunity this chancer is claiming ?

There are over 90% negative results every day. That would suggest a high level of immunity.

drunkmonkey · 15-10-2020 12:28PM

walus wrote: »

Nox, how many cases can be traced back to international travel?

In fairness to him 100% of cases can be traced back to foreign travel.

15-10-2020 12:35PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

This is the greatest load of nonsense i've read today. You still don't understand that they do not stop or protect you from getting covid.
.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-face-masks-what-you-need-to-know

https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/13/covid-19-experts-masks-are-as-important-as-a-vaccine.html

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/p0714-americans-to-wear-masks.html

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

https://files.fast.ai/papers/masks_lit_review.pdf

and any amount of other sources if you look.

charlie14 · 15-10-2020 12:39PM

TheDeep wrote: »

Whatever about masks. I don’t care about them, they don’t bother me. But to expect everyone else to abide by the latest restrictions (no visiting other households etc...) to protect you is the height of selfishness I think.

If people don’t want to get the virus they should stay home. People on Twitter and Reddit crying out for level 5 restrictions when they could just live by level 5 restrictions themselves if they wanted!

Have you not put the cart in front of the horse ?

Asking people not to visit other households is not about protecting the visitor from being infected in another household

Its about protecting the other household from being infected by the visitor.

15-10-2020 12:41PM

RobitTV wrote: »

Years of austerity measures will mean we won't be able to afford a secure health service, education or transport system for the future. A budget deficit of 21 billion euro is serious matter for a economy and country of our size.

Austerity is not being considered as an option as it just doesn't work.

drunkmonkey · 15-10-2020 12:46PM

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-face-masks-what-you-need-to-know

https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/13/covid-19-experts-masks-are-as-important-as-a-vaccine.html

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/p0714-americans-to-wear-masks.html

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

https://files.fast.ai/papers/masks_lit_review.pdf

and any amount of other sources if you look.

Nox it was posted earlier today, the CDC have published data to say the vast majority of hospital admissions are mask wearers.
I'd prefer not to be another statistic thank you very much I'll stick to fresh air if you don't mind.

Tenzor07 · 15-10-2020 12:51PM

charlie14 wrote: »

Asking people not to visit other households is not about protecting the visitor from being infected in another household
Its about protecting the other household from being infected by the visitor.

I can't bring someone to the house for coffee, yet if I was a supermarket worker I can sit in the canteen with 20 other people from other households?
When I get the Bus home I am sitting in a poorly ventilated area with 30 other people.
I can't visit family but they can have a tradesman come in and tile the kitchen.
Can't have a pint after work with a mate but can drive around in the Van with him all day.

Makes sound scientific sense for sure!

walus · 15-10-2020 12:53PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

In fairness to him 100% of cases can be traced back to foreign travel.

With his logic it is probably in a range of 110-125%.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings