Electrical Heating

Neilw · 20-08-2020 9:56pm #1

Hi all,

Are there any energy efficient electric heaters available?

I’ve seen all sorts of wall mounted radiator type heaters but I don’t want to buy something that ends up either costing a fortune or gives out poor heat.

I’m heating a 5m x 8m room, it’s an insulated mezzanine floor in a workshop.

Thanks.

mikeecho · 20-08-2020 10:01pm

The first law of thermodynamics.. (look it up)

You'll only get out what you put in.
Electric heaters are never cheap to run.

1 unit of electricity will create X amount of heat... That can't be changed.

20-08-2020 10:04pm

The good news is that all electrical heaters are almost 100 % efficient. The bad news is that electricity is expensive so that most alternative energy sources can produce more heat at a lower cost even if they are less efficient.

Many confuse high efficiency with low running cost.

Neilw · 20-08-2020 10:20pm

Hmm, my original idea of a wood burning stove is probably going to be a better option.

20-08-2020 10:22pm

Neilw wrote: »

Hmm, my original idea of a wood burning stove is probably going to be a better option.

That is exact what I went for. I disconnected the only electrical heater in the house, the immersion.

ercork · 21-08-2020 2:04am

Neilw wrote: »

Hmm, my original idea of a wood burning stove is probably going to be a better option.

Have a look at an air to air heat pump. Not sure what your budget is but you could definitely get one for under 2k. The running cost would be about a quarter of what electric heaters would be. And there would be no nasty emissions like you would get from wood burning.

21-08-2020 7:02am

ercork wrote: »

Have a look at an air to air heat pump. Not sure what your budget is but you could definitely get one for under 2k. The running cost would be about a quarter of what electric heaters would be. And there would be no nasty emissions like you would get from wood burning.

I think a combination of heat pumps and descent insulation is the future.

antoinolachtnai · 21-08-2020 3:08pm

You have to factor in the time and cost of hauling timber upstairs to a mezzanine.

You have to take into account your need for extraction/air changes too, depending on the type of workshop.

A radiant type of heater (basically a gas or electric patio heater) might be a good solution, depending on the situation. These heat objects rather than the air.

a.

maxamillius · 01-09-2020 5:13pm

Any thoughts on electrical heating as the main source in a house these days. Friend looking at buying a house with no central heating but has storage heaters. Wondering could they change the storage heaters to a more efficient electrical heater and still be on par with oil or gas CH systems.

alan4cult · 01-09-2020 9:47pm

Yes and no,
Heating will also give you the benefit of heating water cheaply. Heating water with an immersion needs to be considered too.
Electrical heaters do have the benefit of room by room easier control than water but with modern zoning it's easier to have rooms with valves.

You will struggle to beat oil or gas I would say.

01-09-2020 10:35pm

alan4cult wrote: »

Yes and no,
Heating will also give you the benefit of heating water cheaply.

Typo

Heating water with an immersion needs to be considered too.

Consider not doing it would be best.

You will struggle to beat oil or gas I would say.

+1, agree.

This comes up on an almost weekly basis on this forum.
All electrical heaters are almost 100% efficient from the cheapest to the most expensive. The issue is the cost per unit of electricity is high, this makes it far less economical to heat a home (or water) electrically than with a less efficient gas boiler.

Heat pumps are an entirely different matter as they can output more heat energy than they consume in terms of electrical energy. But these of course are not electrical heaters.

maxamillius · 01-09-2020 10:35pm

alan4cult wrote: »

Yes and no,
Heating will also give you the benefit of heating water cheaply. Heating water with an immersion needs to be considered too.
Electrical heaters do have the benefit of room by room easier control than water but with modern zoning it's easier to have rooms with valves.

You will struggle to beat oil or gas I would say.

Ye so currently in the house there is an immersion for hot water and that’s it, everything else is storage heating! They are looking at getting the house wrapped in external insulation, my thoughts were that although electrical heaters may be slightly more costly to run, if the house is well insulated then they wouldn’t need the CH on as much

John.G · 02-09-2020 12:37pm

The house wrap is probably a good investment also changing the current storage heaters for ones that really store the heat and only emit it when required, like the Dimplex Quantum might be worth considering, also if the immersion is only timed to heat the water at night rate then while the energy costs still won't match gas/oil, they might be ~ 30% higher.
If the house is cosy wrapped then serious consideration should also be given to the Heat Pump option.

ercork · 03-09-2020 3:37am

If the insulation and airtightness are brought to a good level then a heat pump would be a really good option.

Air to water are the most common for heating and hot water but are fairly expensive to install. It's also quite a big job, requiring the installation of pipes, rads, underfloor heating, etc.

Air to air are much cheaper and easier to install and could be a good option depending on the internal layout of the house. They don't do hot water but if, as the previous post says, the immersion heater is used during off peak times, this is a decent option for hot water.

maxamillius · 03-09-2020 7:34am

Thanks for the reply’s lads, some interesting food for thought there regarding the heat pumps.

What’s actually involved in installing air to air?

Regarding the house, they got outbid and it’s now at 640k, imagine that, a house with no CH and an F BER rating!

03-09-2020 11:19am

First off let me clearly state I am far from an expert on heat pumps. I can and have dealt with them from an electrical perspective but I would be the wrong person to advise from other perspectives.

However, I did talk to a Mitsubishi technical expert at the Ideal Home show in the RDS. His advice was not to install a heat pump in any home with an energy rating below A. His position was that the low grade heat provided from heat pumps is simply not suited to homes with lower BER ratings. Anyway there is no point in debating with me about it, that was his position. It is worth noting that his primary aim is to sell as many as possible, but he also wants happy customers.

ercork · 03-09-2020 10:19pm

maxamillius wrote: »

Thanks for the reply’s lads, some interesting food for thought there regarding the heat pumps.

What’s actually involved in installing air to air?

Regarding the house, they got outbid and it’s now at 640k, imagine that, a house with no CH and an F BER rating!

Air to air is basically an air conditioner. An outdoor unit is installed against the back wall of your house and the indoor unit gets installed the other side of the wall and just blows out warm air at a steady rate. It is possible to separate them by several metres with ducting but the shorter the distance the better.

This will work fine for an open plan setup. Otherwise, it is possible to run several indoor units off one outdoor unit. Another option would be to get two heat pumps and put one to the front and one to the rear of the house. Or maybe one upstairs and one downstairs. They cost between 1500 and 2000 each.

There are quite a few posts on here about them. If you did want to investigate further, it would be best to get an installer out to the house.

buzz11 · 14-09-2020 9:33pm

Hi

I've a dimplex night storage heater that only operates at full heat, I've adjusted the input dial but it still puts out full heat every night.

What could be at fault?

bobbyy gee · 14-09-2020 9:38pm

thermostat is stuck is there a reset button

buzz11 · 14-09-2020 9:55pm

bobbyy gee wrote: »

thermostat is stuck is there a reset button

Sound, I'll find it - I've reset ones before -- this is useful;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9MguvffPaE

meercat · 15-09-2020 7:00am

buzz11 wrote: »

Sound, I'll find it - I've reset ones before -- this is useful;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9MguvffPaE

It’s unlikely to be the reset button.
Storage heaters are tricky to regulate the output. It’s actually just a mechanical vent that opens/closes to let the heat out. Check that this vent is functioning correctly.

15-09-2020 9:15am

As far as I recall the reset button needs to be pressed when they can’t switch on. It’s like a high cut out stat. It’s been a while but I think we needed a small pointy screwdriver to do it.

Zarco · 15-09-2020 9:18am

2011 wrote: »

As far as I recall the reset button needs to be pressed when they can’t switch on. It’s like a high cut out stat. It’s been a while but I think we needed a small pointy screwdriver to do it.

Ya

It should be the control stat at fault if the op has turned it right down

I don't recall any problems with them

adrian92 · 16-09-2020 9:13pm

I think that the reset switch is when a storage heater does not heat up at all.
In this case the problem is temperature control.

Seems like a thermostat failure

seandeas · 25-09-2020 7:18pm

Folks, I’ve a small apartment with two 20 year old storage heaters, one in the hall and the other in the sitting room. The one in the sitting room has stopped working and I’m thinking of replacing rather that repairing it. Can anyone offer any opinions on which is better - new storage heaters, or Ecovolt or Fahro? I’m out and about a lot and it seems wasteful to have a warm apartment heated by storage heaters when there’s no one home. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you 😊

Spanish Eyes · 25-09-2020 7:27pm

seandeas wrote: »

Folks, I’ve a small apartment with two 20 year old storage heaters, one in the hall and the other in the sitting room. The one in the sitting room has stopped working and I’m thinking of replacing rather that repairing it. Can anyone offer any opinions on which is better - new storage heaters, or Ecovolt or Fahro? I’m out and about a lot and it seems wasteful to have a warm apartment heated by storage heaters when there’s no one home. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you 😊

Have you tried a plug in oil filled radiator? Also halogen heaters are good. Neither are too heavy on costs.

I know this because we had a boiler blowout end of Feb (Gas), and when lockdown happened well no one would do anything. Bought both the above and survived, and the bills were grand (less even) than normal, but that was to be expected.

Only issue we had was using the Immersion for water heating, but it was ok.

Back to gas now and new boiler.

seandeas · 27-09-2020 2:14am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Have you tried a plug in oil filled radiator? Also halogen heaters are good. Neither are too heavy on costs.

I know this because we had a boiler blowout end of Feb (Gas), and when lockdown happened well no one would do anything. Bought both the above and survived, and the bills were grand (less even) than normal, but that was to be expected.

Only issue we had was using the Immersion for water heating, but it was ok.

Back to gas now and new boiler.

Thanks mate, I guess those oil filled radiators are good but I’m looking for something a bit more permanent to replace the storage heaters.

bobbyy gee · 27-09-2020 3:00am

electricity is expensive

what's her ratings of house

https://www.statista.com/statistics/418082/electricity-prices-for-households-in-ireland/

27-09-2020 7:56am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Have you tried a plug in oil filled radiator? Also halogen heaters are good. Neither are too heavy on costs.

Actually all electrical heaters are very expensive to run. 1kW of heat for one hour consumes 1 unit of electricity regardless of whether an oil filled rad or a halogen heater is used. Unfortunately a unit of electricity costs far more than a unit of gas.

I know this because we had a boiler blowout end of Feb (Gas), and when lockdown happened well no one would do anything. Bought both the above and survived, and the bills were grand (less even) than normal, but that was to be expected.

With respect this is not a very scientific way to conclude that the above heaters are cheap to run. The mild weather during lockdown and estimated electricity bills could have been the reason for the bills being reasonable.

Only issue we had was using the Immersion for water heating, but it was ok.

Immersions are just another type of electrical heater. How did you decide this was an issue but the other two electrical heater types were "grand" ?

Back to gas now and new boiler.

That makes sense.

27-09-2020 7:58am

seandeas wrote: »

Thanks mate, I guess those oil filled radiators are good but I’m looking for something a bit more permanent to replace the storage heaters.

There is no reason that they need to be any less permanent.
Personally I would prefer the heat from an oil filled rad, it is less dry than a storage heater.

ted1 · 27-09-2020 8:13am

I’m looking for alternatives too.
I’ve a house I rent out and the gas heating system needs to be replaced. I’ve had a quite if about 6k. For a boiler, 7 rads and pipe work.

I’m thinking I could install 7 electric heaters for about 3,500. Snd not have to worry about leaks or servicing. So while gas may be cheaper there’d be no standing charge 150 or annual service 100. Which would cover higher running costs.

Any thoughts?

27-09-2020 8:22am

ted1 wrote: »

I’m looking for alternatives too.
I’ve a house I rent out and the gas heating system needs to be replaced. I’ve had a quite if about 6k. For a boiler, 7 rads and pipe work.

I’m thinking I could install 7 electric heaters for about 3,500. Snd not have to worry about leaks or servicing. So while gas may be cheaper there’d be no standing charge 150 or annual service 100. Which would cover higher running costs.

Any thoughts?

If you house has a very high BER rating (A3 for example) and solar panels (for heating water) you may find that the gap between the cost of electric heating and gas has reduced significantly. However for homes with lower BER ratings electrical heating would be far more expensive overall.

It is not normal for a central heating system to leak, besides a home without central heating still has lots of pipework that could theoretically leak.

ted1 · 27-09-2020 9:16am

2011 wrote: »

If you house has a very high BER rating (A3 for example) and solar panels (for heating water) you may find that the gap between the cost of electric heating and gas has reduced significantly. However for homes with lower BER ratings electrical heating would be far more expensive overall.

It is not normal for a central heating system to leak, besides a home without central heating still has lots of pipework that could theoretically leak.

The house is an ex-council house, mid terrace two up two down with a kitchen extension. So might have a poor BER but it’d actually not be to bad.

If you strip out the heating system. There’s one bathroom upstairs and a sink and washing machine in the kitchen so minimal pipe work.

I had thought that I could add PV +Storage which would bring it up to the same cost as the Gas system. But as it’s rented PV offers no benefit to me.

27-09-2020 10:30am

ted1 wrote: »

The house is an ex-council house, mid terrace two up two down with a kitchen extension. So might have a poor BER but it’d actually not be to bad.

That would help but I would be confident that it would be a long way off an A rating.

If you strip out the heating system.

I have never hear of anyone stripping out and not replacing a heating system because they are afraid it would leak. Once installed properly it should never leak. Just do it properly and don’t worry about it. Mine doesn’t leak and I modified a lot of it despite the fact that I am not a plumber. It’s really not that difficult to connect pipes properly.

There’s one bathroom upstairs and a sink and washing machine in the kitchen so minimal pipe work.

So at least 2 sinks with hot and cold water taps, a tank in the attic, a hot water cylinder, at least one toilet, a bath or shower perhaps a dishwasher and all of these need drains too. That adds up to a lot of connections.

I think you have a solution that is desperately looking for a problem to solve.

Most modern homes are actually installing more pipe work for underfloor heating, heat pumps, en suites, more zoning etc. and do not appear to have the concerns that you have.

As this home is rented I wouldn’t advise investing much of your own money in it if I were you.

PCros · 07-10-2020 12:34pm

Just wondering if anyone has purchased an Eco Panel Heater and if there has been any obvious savings.

I'm looking to get one for our shed that would be on a timer.

https://purchase.ie/product/all-products/eco-panel-heater

11-10-2020 7:54am

It’s a scam.

All electrical heaters produce the same amount of heat for the same cost. They are all equally efficient.
The only reason that they cost less to run than their predecessor is because they provide less heat!

Electrical heating is always far more costly than most alternatives.

long_b · 11-10-2020 7:58am

Sorry to hijack - but have a similar question.
Working in an out house with thick walls. It's getting chilly out there.

Would a portable electric oil filled radiator be more efficient than an electric fan heater?

11-10-2020 8:01am

long_b wrote: »

Sorry to hijack - but have a similar question.
Working in an out house with thick walls. It's getting chilly out there.

Would a portable electric oil filled radiator be more efficient than an electric fan heater?

No appreciable difference. Electric heaters are best avoided where possible as they are so expensive to run.

Many people confuse “efficiency” with “cost effective”. They are not the same thing.

Tails142 · 11-10-2020 8:15am

long_b wrote: »

Sorry to hijack - but have a similar question.
Working in an out house with thick walls. It's getting chilly out there.

Would a portable electric oil filled radiator be more efficient than an electric fan heater?

While what people are saying about efficiency is true, how the heat is delivered can make a difference.

A good type for a shed is one that radiates heat rather than heats the air. Bar heaters and halogen lamps are like this, there are infra red types that don't give out light but they're expensive. It just means you start feeling the heat straight away so you don't have to wait for the the room to fill with hot air. The halogen lamp ones can be got for €20

A good thing about oil filled radiators is there is no exposed element though so they're a safer option if you're going to have it on the ground. My cat used to rub up against the halogen lamp style one on the ground and singe itself.

long_b · 11-10-2020 8:29am

2011 wrote: »

No appreciable difference. Electric heaters are best avoided where possible as they are so expensive to run.

Many people confuse “efficiency” with “cost effective”. They are not the same thing.

Point noted - cost effective would be my main concern

Bruthal · 11-10-2020 9:09am

2011 wrote: »

Many people confuse “efficiency” with “cost effective”. They are not the same thing.

People confuse, or more accurately, fail to separate the final conversion at the point of use, with/from an entire process beginning far from their location.

Electric heating is a long way from 100% efficient.

11-10-2020 12:41pm

Bruthal wrote: »

Electric heating is a long way from 100% efficient.

...when you take transmission and other losses external to the heater. However the electrical heater itself is very close to 100% efficient. Yet it is still a very expensive way to heat a home.

Bruthal · 11-10-2020 12:51pm

2011 wrote: »

...when you take transmission and other losses external to the heater. However the electrical heater itself is very close to 100% efficient. Yet it is still a very expensive way to heat a home.

It is expensive because the high efficiency conversion of energy from electricity to heat, is not what the user is paying for. They are paying for the energy before the conversion. 2kw of heat from the element probably takes 4kw at the start.

That is like having a diesel generator at the end of the garden, generating electricity, then wondering why it is so expensive to heat the house with the 100% efficient heaters.

Lenar3556 · 12-10-2020 12:55am

Is it fair to say that it is always very expensive?

Particularly if you can use night rate.

A friend of mine built a new house about ten years ago and installed the Devi mat system throughout. He swears by it - says the running cost rarely exceeds €1000 per year and the house is greater than 3000sq ft.

8.5c per KW is not bad!

12-10-2020 7:00am

Lenar3556 wrote: »

8.5c per KW is not bad!

Gas is still cheaper.
Besides people what heating during peak times too.

Lenar3556 · 12-10-2020 9:13am

Nat gas would be I suppose if you are lucky to be served by a pipeline - LPG tends to be more expensive. And you have some efficiency losses with both of those.

The Devi system is underfloor so the plan would be to have sufficient ‘storage’ in the screed.

I know it’s not for everyone, but I do think electric heating be it in the form of heat pumps or otherwise will be the future when matched with renewables and smart metering.

12-10-2020 9:30am

Lenar3556 wrote: »

The Devi system is underfloor so the plan would be to have sufficient ‘storage’ in the screed.

There are a lot of issues with that approach apart from the high running cost such as:

1) There is no way of controlling the release of this heat. This means a very warm floor in the morning and a very cold home in the evening when you come home from work / school. Although the house may be warm during the day it may well be empty.

2) The only way of warming the house in the evening is to turn in the heating at peak rate.

3) Response time is very slow as the entire screed has to be heated. Unlike conventional radiators that can warm up a home in around 30 minutes the Devi mats take hours.

4) As the Devi mats use an electrical element they can and do fail just like any other electrical element. This means a very intrusive and expensive fix is required which often includes lifting tiles / digging up floors. I have seen this many times.

5) this solution does not perform well under wooden floors or carpets.

I know it’s not for everyone, but I do think electric heating be it in the form of heat pumps or otherwise will be the future when matched with renewables and smart metering.

Apples and oranges!

Heat pumps are a completely different animal. They are not considered “electric heating”. They provide a higher heat output than the electrical energy they consume by use of a refrigerant.

What is being discussed in this thread are electrical heaters that use an electrical element to heat.

PCros · 12-10-2020 10:37am

Thanks for the replies.

In terms of a plug and use option what would be the most cost effective for a shed. This area is essentially a small gym so I would like the heating to come on around 2/3 hours a day just so its not getting too cold in there.

12-10-2020 10:43am

PCros wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.

In terms of a plug and use option what would be the most cost effective for a shed. This area is essentially a small gym so I would like the heating to come on around 2/3 hours a day just so its not getting too cold in there.

All of the electrical heaters will provide the same amount of heat for the same amount of electrical energy.

I prefer the oils filled rads as they provide a quick response and heat that is similar to “real” rads i.e. not a dry heat.

Muahahaha · 12-10-2020 5:13pm

Just on the Devi underfloor heating mats I looked into them at the time and got the impression that they are really only for small spaces like bathrooms. If you had them across the entire house Id imagine the electricity bills could be huge, definitely higher than running proper water heated UFH anyway. Whenever I renovate my bathrooms will likely go for the Devi mats but I dont think its a good idea to cover a whole house in them, what you save now will come back to bite you in your electricity bill.

Bruthal · 12-10-2020 5:30pm

Lenar3556 wrote: »

I know it’s not for everyone, but I do think electric heating be it in the form of heat pumps

That wouldnt be electric heating really though. It is transfer of heat from one medium to another. No heat is produced by the electricity apart from losses.

Electrical Heating

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