Electrical Heating

27-09-2020 8:22am

ted1 wrote: »

I’m looking for alternatives too.
I’ve a house I rent out and the gas heating system needs to be replaced. I’ve had a quite if about 6k. For a boiler, 7 rads and pipe work.

I’m thinking I could install 7 electric heaters for about 3,500. Snd not have to worry about leaks or servicing. So while gas may be cheaper there’d be no standing charge 150 or annual service 100. Which would cover higher running costs.

Any thoughts?

If you house has a very high BER rating (A3 for example) and solar panels (for heating water) you may find that the gap between the cost of electric heating and gas has reduced significantly. However for homes with lower BER ratings electrical heating would be far more expensive overall.

It is not normal for a central heating system to leak, besides a home without central heating still has lots of pipework that could theoretically leak.

ted1 · 27-09-2020 9:16am

2011 wrote: »

If you house has a very high BER rating (A3 for example) and solar panels (for heating water) you may find that the gap between the cost of electric heating and gas has reduced significantly. However for homes with lower BER ratings electrical heating would be far more expensive overall.

It is not normal for a central heating system to leak, besides a home without central heating still has lots of pipework that could theoretically leak.

The house is an ex-council house, mid terrace two up two down with a kitchen extension. So might have a poor BER but it’d actually not be to bad.

If you strip out the heating system. There’s one bathroom upstairs and a sink and washing machine in the kitchen so minimal pipe work.

I had thought that I could add PV +Storage which would bring it up to the same cost as the Gas system. But as it’s rented PV offers no benefit to me.

27-09-2020 10:30am

ted1 wrote: »

The house is an ex-council house, mid terrace two up two down with a kitchen extension. So might have a poor BER but it’d actually not be to bad.

That would help but I would be confident that it would be a long way off an A rating.

If you strip out the heating system.

I have never hear of anyone stripping out and not replacing a heating system because they are afraid it would leak. Once installed properly it should never leak. Just do it properly and don’t worry about it. Mine doesn’t leak and I modified a lot of it despite the fact that I am not a plumber. It’s really not that difficult to connect pipes properly.

There’s one bathroom upstairs and a sink and washing machine in the kitchen so minimal pipe work.

So at least 2 sinks with hot and cold water taps, a tank in the attic, a hot water cylinder, at least one toilet, a bath or shower perhaps a dishwasher and all of these need drains too. That adds up to a lot of connections.

I think you have a solution that is desperately looking for a problem to solve.

Most modern homes are actually installing more pipe work for underfloor heating, heat pumps, en suites, more zoning etc. and do not appear to have the concerns that you have.

As this home is rented I wouldn’t advise investing much of your own money in it if I were you.

PCros · 07-10-2020 12:34pm

Just wondering if anyone has purchased an Eco Panel Heater and if there has been any obvious savings.

I'm looking to get one for our shed that would be on a timer.

https://purchase.ie/product/all-products/eco-panel-heater

11-10-2020 7:54am

It’s a scam.

All electrical heaters produce the same amount of heat for the same cost. They are all equally efficient.
The only reason that they cost less to run than their predecessor is because they provide less heat!

Electrical heating is always far more costly than most alternatives.

long_b · 11-10-2020 7:58am

Sorry to hijack - but have a similar question.
Working in an out house with thick walls. It's getting chilly out there.

Would a portable electric oil filled radiator be more efficient than an electric fan heater?

11-10-2020 8:01am

long_b wrote: »

Sorry to hijack - but have a similar question.
Working in an out house with thick walls. It's getting chilly out there.

Would a portable electric oil filled radiator be more efficient than an electric fan heater?

No appreciable difference. Electric heaters are best avoided where possible as they are so expensive to run.

Many people confuse “efficiency” with “cost effective”. They are not the same thing.

Tails142 · 11-10-2020 8:15am

long_b wrote: »

Sorry to hijack - but have a similar question.
Working in an out house with thick walls. It's getting chilly out there.

Would a portable electric oil filled radiator be more efficient than an electric fan heater?

While what people are saying about efficiency is true, how the heat is delivered can make a difference.

A good type for a shed is one that radiates heat rather than heats the air. Bar heaters and halogen lamps are like this, there are infra red types that don't give out light but they're expensive. It just means you start feeling the heat straight away so you don't have to wait for the the room to fill with hot air. The halogen lamp ones can be got for €20

A good thing about oil filled radiators is there is no exposed element though so they're a safer option if you're going to have it on the ground. My cat used to rub up against the halogen lamp style one on the ground and singe itself.

long_b · 11-10-2020 8:29am

2011 wrote: »

No appreciable difference. Electric heaters are best avoided where possible as they are so expensive to run.

Many people confuse “efficiency” with “cost effective”. They are not the same thing.

Point noted - cost effective would be my main concern

Bruthal · 11-10-2020 9:09am

2011 wrote: »

Many people confuse “efficiency” with “cost effective”. They are not the same thing.

People confuse, or more accurately, fail to separate the final conversion at the point of use, with/from an entire process beginning far from their location.

Electric heating is a long way from 100% efficient.

11-10-2020 12:41pm

Bruthal wrote: »

Electric heating is a long way from 100% efficient.

...when you take transmission and other losses external to the heater. However the electrical heater itself is very close to 100% efficient. Yet it is still a very expensive way to heat a home.

Bruthal · 11-10-2020 12:51pm

2011 wrote: »

...when you take transmission and other losses external to the heater. However the electrical heater itself is very close to 100% efficient. Yet it is still a very expensive way to heat a home.

It is expensive because the high efficiency conversion of energy from electricity to heat, is not what the user is paying for. They are paying for the energy before the conversion. 2kw of heat from the element probably takes 4kw at the start.

That is like having a diesel generator at the end of the garden, generating electricity, then wondering why it is so expensive to heat the house with the 100% efficient heaters.

Lenar3556 · 12-10-2020 12:55am

Is it fair to say that it is always very expensive?

Particularly if you can use night rate.

A friend of mine built a new house about ten years ago and installed the Devi mat system throughout. He swears by it - says the running cost rarely exceeds €1000 per year and the house is greater than 3000sq ft.

8.5c per KW is not bad!

12-10-2020 7:00am

Lenar3556 wrote: »

8.5c per KW is not bad!

Gas is still cheaper.
Besides people what heating during peak times too.

Lenar3556 · 12-10-2020 9:13am

Nat gas would be I suppose if you are lucky to be served by a pipeline - LPG tends to be more expensive. And you have some efficiency losses with both of those.

The Devi system is underfloor so the plan would be to have sufficient ‘storage’ in the screed.

I know it’s not for everyone, but I do think electric heating be it in the form of heat pumps or otherwise will be the future when matched with renewables and smart metering.

12-10-2020 9:30am

Lenar3556 wrote: »

The Devi system is underfloor so the plan would be to have sufficient ‘storage’ in the screed.

There are a lot of issues with that approach apart from the high running cost such as:

1) There is no way of controlling the release of this heat. This means a very warm floor in the morning and a very cold home in the evening when you come home from work / school. Although the house may be warm during the day it may well be empty.

2) The only way of warming the house in the evening is to turn in the heating at peak rate.

3) Response time is very slow as the entire screed has to be heated. Unlike conventional radiators that can warm up a home in around 30 minutes the Devi mats take hours.

4) As the Devi mats use an electrical element they can and do fail just like any other electrical element. This means a very intrusive and expensive fix is required which often includes lifting tiles / digging up floors. I have seen this many times.

5) this solution does not perform well under wooden floors or carpets.

I know it’s not for everyone, but I do think electric heating be it in the form of heat pumps or otherwise will be the future when matched with renewables and smart metering.

Apples and oranges!

Heat pumps are a completely different animal. They are not considered “electric heating”. They provide a higher heat output than the electrical energy they consume by use of a refrigerant.

What is being discussed in this thread are electrical heaters that use an electrical element to heat.

PCros · 12-10-2020 10:37am

Thanks for the replies.

In terms of a plug and use option what would be the most cost effective for a shed. This area is essentially a small gym so I would like the heating to come on around 2/3 hours a day just so its not getting too cold in there.

12-10-2020 10:43am

PCros wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.

In terms of a plug and use option what would be the most cost effective for a shed. This area is essentially a small gym so I would like the heating to come on around 2/3 hours a day just so its not getting too cold in there.

All of the electrical heaters will provide the same amount of heat for the same amount of electrical energy.

I prefer the oils filled rads as they provide a quick response and heat that is similar to “real” rads i.e. not a dry heat.

Muahahaha · 12-10-2020 5:13pm

Just on the Devi underfloor heating mats I looked into them at the time and got the impression that they are really only for small spaces like bathrooms. If you had them across the entire house Id imagine the electricity bills could be huge, definitely higher than running proper water heated UFH anyway. Whenever I renovate my bathrooms will likely go for the Devi mats but I dont think its a good idea to cover a whole house in them, what you save now will come back to bite you in your electricity bill.

Bruthal · 12-10-2020 5:30pm

Lenar3556 wrote: »

I know it’s not for everyone, but I do think electric heating be it in the form of heat pumps

That wouldnt be electric heating really though. It is transfer of heat from one medium to another. No heat is produced by the electricity apart from losses.

12-10-2020 7:06pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

If you had them across the entire house Id imagine the electricity bills could be huge

Agreed, but you will constantly find people that will do this and swear that it is a cheap way to heat a home.

This thread is a prime example of how people can be mislead. The link in the OP says it all. The heaters only use less power because they produce less heat. This means that they will have to be switched on for longer resulting in no saving whatsoever.

[Deleted User] · 12-10-2020 10:57pm

Bruthal wrote: »

That is like having a diesel generator at the end of the garden, generating electricity, then wondering why it is so expensive to heat the house with the 100% efficient heaters.

50% of wasted heated from the diesel going into the coolant that's being ignored while they're at it. :rolleyes:

[Deleted User] · 12-10-2020 11:01pm

...or the exhaust...

IsThisOneFree · 14-10-2020 10:58am

I have a small home office which I'm using all day every day and for the forseeable. It's on the north side of the house (a renovated, insulated stone cottage). The window faces east but is overshadowed by a porch. So the room is never really that warm compared to the rest of the house.

I'm not a lover of much heat, but I'm looking for something to take the sting out of the air. I don't think I really want one of those "blow heaters" as they tend to produce alot of hot air which disappears quickly (IMHO) as soon as they're turned off. I'd rather something that I could leave running all day or even 24/7 (or on a timer) with a low amount of heat.

I was looking at something like this:

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/dimplex-ecot1ft-wall-mounted-tubular-heater-40w-408-x-81mm/3951f

I know it's intended mainly for cupboards etc, but would it work say for example, if I mounted it above the door and left it on all day ? Or would I be better looking at something like this:

https://newreviews.co.uk/reviews/dimplex-oil-free-baby-column-heater/

The room is roughly 1.9m L x 2.9m W x 2.5m H but it does have alot of furniture (desk, chair, bookstand, small TV stand and a sofa)

Thanks in advance for any advice

colm_mcm · 14-10-2020 11:07am

The first one is completely useless in your case. You’d get as much heat from a light bulb.

Heaters are pretty much 100% efficient, so you get out what you put in. The more heat you get, the more electricity you use.
There’s no electric heater that will heat better for less money.

If you have a dual meter, then a storage heater might be worth it.

IsThisOneFree · 14-10-2020 12:15pm

Thanks for the reply. Maybe I should phrase my question another way ... for a room of it's size, what heat output would I need to just "take the coldness out of the room" ? From various calculators I've used, I need between 750 watts to 1 KW for a room of this size. But none of them seem to tell me how warm this would make the room (I appreciate heat is rather subjective). Would the 500w "skirting heater" here be suitable for example ?

https://www.currys.ie/ieen/home-appliances/heating-and-cooling/heating-and-cooling/dimplex-glen-2150n-skirting-convector-heater-white-10169261-pdt.html

Also, I presume the above would be far more suitable for long term running (ie 7-8 hours per day) than something like this:

https://powercity.ie/product/S0505M

Thanks again

salonfire · 14-10-2020 12:30pm

Get a plug-in oil radiator.

Once the room is up to temperature, it will switch itself off. If your room is well insulated, the radiator will come on infrequently so costs are not as bad as you'd think.

Use heavy curtains on the window if you want to further insulate the room and keep heating from escaping.

IsThisOneFree · 14-10-2020 12:32pm

salonfire wrote: »

Get a plug-in oil radiator

Thanks. So would the DeLonghi oil radiator above be sufficient ? Or would I need more than 500w ?

phormium · 14-10-2020 12:33pm

I'd agree with above, oil filled plug in radiator is very efficient for an electric heater and gives good heat, I have one in my kitchen all winter when the central heating is not on during the day, only pulled it out of it's storage spot few days ago as the days have got colder.

When I'm working at the table and it's really cold I slide it in under the table, once my legs are warm I'm fine

IsThisOneFree · 14-10-2020 12:34pm

phormium wrote: »

once my legs are warm I'm fine

Yea to be honest I feel the same ! I might just try to get that DeLonghi or something similar

Electrical Heating

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