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Irish Archbishops call for Catholics to be allowed to attend Mass

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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    eviltwin wrote: »
    How are they being treated unfairly?

    Because they have gotten a massive kick up the exceptionalism from the government


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    So what is the point of watching it. To critique the priests performance, to check out the new robes?
    And what happens if a catholic is stuck far from a church and can't attend or someone is bedridden and can't go. Is it off to hell for them or does god make exceptions
    I don't think you are making a sincere inquiry here. But anyway:

    1. The point of watching it: It can be prayerful and better than nothing at all, but it is not the same or a substitute.

    2. The Sunday Obligation has been lifted (so it's not a sin if you don't go) and in ordinary times there is an exception if you are ill:
    The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin (CCC 2181)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    eviltwin wrote: »
    How are they being treated unfairly?
    Look at all the other stuff that is open under level 3. Look at how other countries are doing things.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I don't think you are making a sincere inquiry here. But anyway:

    1. The point of watching it: It can be prayerful and better than nothing at all, but it is not the same or a substitute.

    2. The Sunday Obligation has been lifted (so it's not a sin if you don't go) and in ordinary times there is an exception if you are ill:

    Cool so there you go in the words of your own church. Mass on a Sunday is not essential


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Look at all the other stuff that is open under level 3. Look at how other countries are doing things.

    Like what? Genuinely confused how you think they are being treated unfairly


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Like what? Genuinely confused how you think they are being treated unfairly
    They are being treated inconsistently. If this inconsistency is deliberate, then it is unfair.

    I have already discussed a few example in the thread. Why, in your opinion, has every other country in the world (bar places like North Korea fundamentalist Islamic theocracy's) not banned Mass like Ireland has?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,974 ✭✭✭Bredabe


    As someone who grew up in old fashioned Irish catholism(fasting on sat pm ahead of communtion on sun and the like) Im staggered at how many of those and the replacement rules have 'changed' since March.

    Almost like 'god' is changing his mind according to covid, yet I would still be asked to believe that rules are handed down from 'him'.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    Cool so there you go in the words of your own church. Mass on a Sunday is not essential
    Receipt of Communion, and other Sacraments, are however.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    Bredabe wrote: »
    As someone who grew up in old fashioned Irish catholism(fasting on sat pm ahead of communtion on sun and the like) Im staggered at how many of those and the replacement rules have 'changed' since March.

    Almost like 'god' is changing his mind according to covid, yet I would still be asked to believe that rules are handed down from 'him'.
    The way the Church has responded re obligations etc is very similar to her response to other pandemics and plagues throughout the centuries.

    There have been major changes, around the edges, in the Church since Vatican II but the core fundamentals remain unchanged. The Church is in a constant state of reform. Today I think it is only an hour before communion you should fast.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    Receipt of Communion, and other Sacraments, are however.

    According to who? Some people think sports are essential. Some people think pints are essential.

    Everyone is making sacrifices with their "essential" personal items here for the greater good.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Receipt of Communion, and other Sacraments, are however.

    So a man stranded in a dessert or a catholic in a foreign land 500km from the nearest priest is committing a sin if he can't get himself to blessed bread by Sunday?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    They are being treated inconsistently. If this inconsistency is deliberate, then it is unfair.

    I have already discussed a few example in the thread. Why, in your opinion, has every other country in the world (bar places like North Korea fundamentalist Islamic theocracy's) not banned Mass like Ireland has?

    Every section of society is treated different in each country under covid. It is only unfair if the church is treated different to other similar organisations within Ireland which it is not


  • Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭Juza1973


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    Cool so there you go in the words of your own church. Mass on a Sunday is not essential

    It is essential and there are strict exceptions to dispense you from going with a 40 degree fever or during a tornado


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,822 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    I don't think you are making a sincere inquiry here. But anyway:

    1. The point of watching it: It can be prayerful and better than nothing at all, but it is not the same or a substitute.

    2. The Sunday Obligation has been lifted (so it's not a sin if you don't go) and in ordinary times there is an exception if you are ill:

    Pure nonsense from a criminal organisation bereft of any credibility.

    Anyway who cares about committing sin any more, there's no hell. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Pure nonsense from a criminal organisation bereft of any credibility.

    Anyway who cares about committing sin any more, there's no hell. :rolleyes:
    Billions of people around the world are members of a religion, evidentially a lot of people do care, even if you don't like it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    They are being treated inconsistently. If this inconsistency is deliberate, then it is unfair.

    I have already discussed a few example in the thread. Why, in your opinion, has every other country in the world (bar places like North Korea fundamentalist Islamic theocracy's) not banned Mass like Ireland has?

    We don't live in North Korea so why would we follow what they - or any other country - does :confused:

    I appreciate mass is important to a lot of people but religion is a lifestyle choice. Missing mass is no more important than someone missing their sport or their night out or appointment with a therapist or their weekly visit to their elderly relative or anyone of a million things we have all sacrificed. Don't think you are special. If we put the church on a pedestal and make exceptions for it then the rest of the religions will be at it.

    Anyway if God is real - which he isn't imho - then he has the power to stop all of this but chooses not to so if it isn't bothered why should anyone else?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    eviltwin wrote: »
    We don't live in North Korea so why would we follow what they - or any other country - does :confused:

    I appreciate mass is important to a lot of people but religion is a lifestyle choice. Missing mass is no more important than someone missing their sport or their night out or appointment with a therapist or their weekly visit to their elderly relative or anyone of a million things we have all sacrificed. Don't think you are special. If we put the church on a pedestal and make exceptions for it then the rest of the religions will be at it.

    Anyway if God is real - which he isn't imho - then he has the power to stop all of this but chooses not to so if it isn't bothered why should anyone else?

    Maybe we should ban all mass till god's comes and sorts out this mess he's after making. How many million dead from covid before he gets off his arse


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    eviltwin wrote: »
    We don't live in North Korea so why would we follow what they - or any other country - does :confused:

    I appreciate mass is important to a lot of people but religion is a lifestyle choice. Missing mass is no more important than someone missing their sport or their night out or appointment with a therapist or their weekly visit to their elderly relative or anyone of a million things we have all sacrificed. Don't think you are special. If we put the church on a pedestal and make exceptions for it then the rest of the religions will be at it.

    Anyway if God is real - which he isn't imho - then he has the power to stop all of this but chooses not to so if it isn't bothered why should anyone else?


    This is also my opinion just said more eloquently than I was willing to say it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭SusanC10


    Haven't read the entire thread.

    I am glad that Churches are closed during Level 3 and upwards. Any indoor setting is riskier than outdoor. Also there is Communion.

    My Mum is elderly with underlying conditions and insists on going to Mass every day. She is also a Minister for the Eucharist.
    The only way she will not go to Mass is if it is not taking place.
    So I am relieved that Mass is not happening.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    eviltwin wrote: »
    We don't live in North Korea so why would we follow what they - or any other country - does :confused:
    Sorry that was a typo. The point I'm making is that, as far as I am aware, only North Korea, places like Saudi Arabia, and Ireland have banned people from going to Mass. Every other country, even those with similar or higher Covid than us, have not outright banned attending mass, but rather brought in restrictions and conditions, like churches have in place here already (limits on numbers, physical distancing etc.).
    I appreciate mass is important to a lot of people but religion is a lifestyle choice. Missing mass is no more important than someone missing their sport or their night out or appointment with a therapist or their weekly visit to their elderly relative or anyone of a million things we have all sacrificed. Don't think you are special. If we put the church on a pedestal and make exceptions for it then the rest of the religions will be at it.
    But we make "exceptions" under level 3 for schools, shopping centers, barbers, some non essential shops etc. Again, every other country has treated religious worship differently than we have here. Even France!
    Anyway if God is real - which he isn't imho - then he has the power to stop all of this but chooses not to so if it isn't bothered why should anyone else?
    The "problem of evil" is an interesting one but one which cannot really be discussed fruitfully in a thread like this.


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  • Posts: 8,647 [Deleted User]


    How does this work at the mosque?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,216 ✭✭✭Tork


    Back in August I went to a family member's anniversary Mass. Nearly everyone wore a mask in the church (you'll always have the refuseniks) and they had everyone well spread out. They had an adjacent hall to take the extra people and some volunteers keeping an eye on things. There was no plate passed around (they had it at the door), communion was given into the hand at people's seats and no shaking hands. I'm not religious but I thought it was well organised and safe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Sorry that was a typo. The point I'm making is that, as far as I am aware, only North Korea, places like Saudi Arabia, and Ireland have banned people from going to Mass. Every other country, even those with similar or higher Covid than us, have not outright banned attending mass, but rather brought in restrictions and conditions, like churches have in place here already (limits on numbers, physical distancing etc.)..

    Again, what difference does it make what is happening elsewhere? We are a unique country with unique needs and challenges so comparison is futile.
    But we make "exceptions" under level 3 for schools, shopping centers, barbers, some non essential shops etc. Again, every other country has treated religious worship differently than we have here. Even France!

    You can't compare food and education with religion. We need to eat, people need to be educated. Other services such as hairdressers etc have to happen in person, it can't be done remotely, so with precautions in place then I see no reason not to let them trade. Mass is something you can do online or on tv. And again, I completely understand how deeply some people are feeling its loss and the sense of community that they don't get from watching it on tele but that is where we are. A lot of us are missing our social outlets and community at this time.
    The "problem of evil" is an interesting one but one which cannot really be discussed fruitfully in a thread like this.

    I literally have no idea what this means :confused:

    ETA: I personally have no issue if masses are allowed to go ahead with proper controls. What I take issue with is the fairness. If mass can go ahead then the same should be the case for every other social event. Currently, its too dangerous to have a free for all so with respect, I think things should remain as they are for the moment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,630 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I literally have no idea what this means :confused:

    Basically why does god let people suffer if he's all powerful....


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    hynesie08 wrote: »
    Basically why does god let people suffer if he's all powerful....

    Have a read of the Old Testament. He loves a bit of human suffering. Gets off on it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    SusanC10 wrote: »
    Haven't read the entire thread.

    I am glad that Churches are closed during Level 3 and upwards. Any indoor setting is riskier than outdoor. Also there is Communion.

    My Mum is elderly with underlying conditions and insists on going to Mass every day. She is also a Minister for the Eucharist.
    The only way she will not go to Mass is if it is not taking place.
    So I am relieved that Mass is not happening.

    See typical Ireland. We even have a minister for the eucharist in the cabinet


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Have a read of the Old Testament. He loves a bit of human suffering. Gets off on it.

    My big question from the OT Bible is this.
    We all know what the people of Sodom were up to but what kinda kinky stuff where the crowd in Gomorrah doin to upset god the dirty fe***rs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    hynesie08 wrote: »
    Basically why does god let people suffer if he's all powerful....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,822 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Billions of people around the world are members of a religion, evidentially a lot of people do care, even if you don't like it.

    Are you counting the Bouncy Castle Catholics among these billions?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,974 ✭✭✭Bredabe


    The way the Church has responded re obligations etc is very similar to her response to other pandemics and plagues throughout the centuries.

    There have been major changes, around the edges, in the Church since Vatican II but the core fundamentals remain unchanged. The Church is in a constant state of reform. Today I think it is only an hour before communion you should fast.

    Yes, it is an hour, but as I said when I was growing up, a child fasting overnight was the rule and we were told over and over such rules were the will of 'god' and could not be altered because it made things difficult for humans and we should offer up any discomfort attached to such rules.

    Its the fact that 'gods' word was the law then and now all of those restrictions have gone by the wayside or have been significantly changed makes me think, those rules didnt come for the source credited with them.


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