Schools closed until February? (part 3)

Lillyfae · 07-10-2020 3:24pm

irishblessing wrote: »

Do you know what the story is with remote learning where you are? Not sure if you're a teacher and or parent.

I’m a parent. I posted it in the last thread.

In March, it was the same story as in Ireland. When lockdown happened everything was moved online within days, and all staff engaged. Work was measurable and measured. Some pupils didn’t engage, but this was rectified by communicating with parents. Primary schools were back partially in May and fully by June. Secondary school exams went ahead as planned in June/ July and they were back fully by September.

There are sporadic closures now (Of class, department, school as appropriate) if there’s a suspect case but testing turnaround is about 2 days. The numbers here are similarly rising but a lot is down to post vacation period and relaxed social distancing. They have reiterated the importance of working from home and ramped up mask wearing.

BonsaiKitten · 07-10-2020 4:55pm

JDD wrote: »

For the teachers on the thread...

2 scenarios for you:

(i) Say we have a circuit breaker four week Level 5 lockdown in the next two weeks. The purpose of which is to surpress infections down to a point where were can open at Level 2 for most of the Christmas period. Will you be comfortable teaching during that lockdown and if not, would you be uncomfortable to the point that you would be looking for your union to agree to strike action?

(ii) Say we continue to go up through the Levels. Level 3 for three weeks. That doesn't work. Whole country to Level 4 for three weeks and while it works a bit, its not enough to stop hospitals from reaching capacity. So we then go to Level 5, at some point in December, when it is generally accepted that Covid is much more widespread than it is now. For anyone that was comfortable at Scenario 1, would you now look for strike action?

Let me say, I'm not judging your reaction in any way. My personal view is that, because children tend to by asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic, they do not shed as much virus when they are contagious and therefore teachers are in a better place than say if they were in a room with no PPE and 25 adults.

But I can't back that up with a peer reviewed study or anything, it's just a hunch. And if I was a teacher, even if I had the same hunch, I'm not sure I'd want to take the risk when it gets to the point that Covid is very widespread (say, the same as it was in early March). While I might be comfortable at Scenario 1, because things won't be too different then they are right now, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable at Scenario 2. And even though I'm a working parent with a vested interest in keeping schools open I think I'd side with teachers if they opted for strike action at Scenario 2 (and perhaps even at Scenario 1).

(i) Yes, would be quite happy to work in school.
(ii) Personally again yes, quite happy to.

Now, both of those answers come with caveats. If I caught Covid, I'm most likely not going to be very ill. It's easy for me to say I'm happy working in the classroom if I've no real fear. That isn't the case for many teachers. If Covid is widespread again, I'd expect the risk to them to be taken more seriously than my willingness to teach in person.

In both situations we've still got the problems with medically vulnerable teachers/children, lack of online departmental provision etc.

And finally, under those conditions I think many parents will keep kids at home. This is their choice but I also believe that pressure will come on for some sort of home learning provision, which isn't on. I will be working a full day teaching in person, I am not going to be increasing my workload. I will also not be doing catch up work with children who are kept home.

wirelessdude01 · 07-10-2020 5:14pm

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40060559.html?type=amp&__twitter_impression=true

No wonder contact tracing is haphazard when it comes to school cases. I'd imagine they are doing everything possible to reduce the amount considered as close contacts.

As it is school close contacts are different.to everywhere else.

lulublue22 · 07-10-2020 5:35pm

JDD wrote: »

For the teachers on the thread...

2 scenarios for you:

(i) Say we have a circuit breaker four week Level 5 lockdown in the next two weeks. The purpose of which is to surpress infections down to a point where were can open at Level 2 for most of the Christmas period. Will you be comfortable teaching during that lockdown and if not, would you be uncomfortable to the point that you would be looking for your union to agree to strike action?

(ii) Say we continue to go up through the Levels. Level 3 for three weeks. That doesn't work. Whole country to Level 4 for three weeks and while it works a bit, its not enough to stop hospitals from reaching capacity. So we then go to Level 5, at some point in December, when it is generally accepted that Covid is much more widespread than it is now. For anyone that was comfortable at Scenario 1, would you now look for strike action?

Let me say, I'm not judging your reaction in any way. My personal view is that, because children tend to by asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic, they do not shed as much virus when they are contagious and therefore teachers are in a better place than say if they were in a room with no PPE and 25 adults.

But I can't back that up with a peer reviewed study or anything, it's just a hunch. And if I was a teacher, even if I had the same hunch, I'm not sure I'd want to take the risk when it gets to the point that Covid is very widespread (say, the same as it was in early March). While I might be comfortable at Scenario 1, because things won't be too different then they are right now, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable at Scenario 2. And even though I'm a working parent with a vested interest in keeping schools open I think I'd side with teachers if they opted for strike action at Scenario 2 (and perhaps even at Scenario 1).

Yes I would be happy to teach in scenario 1. As a school we are doing the best we can with the resources we have. We have some good procedures in place and school is as safe as we can make it. While I think schools are one of the driving forces behind infections I don’t at this point think they are the primary driver. My main concerns at the moment are primarily with procedures outside of the schools control. I’m not convinced of contact tracing in relation to schools. I have heard of two cases locally which having knowledge of the school and staff involved I genuinely can not fathom how the HSE decided on who was a close contact. It makes zero sense. I also have issues with the lack if transparency around cases in schools. It is beyond ridiculous to think that schools are jot a source of transmission. A bit of clarity re numbers in schools and level of transmission in schools would be nice.

In scenario 2 I would be leaning towards not being happy to teach as at that stage I feel the numbers would be too high woth subsequent high levels of transmission in schools.That coupled with frankly off the wall decisions re who constitutes a close contact in a school setting would not inspire me with confidence that the gov has the health if the school community in mind as opposed to a political keep the schools open mantra.

appledrop · 07-10-2020 7:30pm

Now we also have to contend with 1 hour checkpoints to get to work.

Ffs when will it all end.

downthemiddle · 07-10-2020 8:11pm

appledrop wrote: »

Now we also have to contend with 1 hour checkpoints to get to work.

Ffs when will it all end.

When we have a successful vaccine.

jrosen · 07-10-2020 8:26pm

appledrop wrote: »

Now we also have to contend with 1 hour checkpoints to get to work.

Ffs when will it all end.

Hopefully tomorrow and going forward there will be a better approach to the check points. We had them from 8.30am today. All they were causing was delays in people getting their kids to school and others getting to work.

...Ghost... · 07-10-2020 8:42pm

jrosen wrote: »

Hopefully tomorrow and going forward there will be a better approach to the check points. We had them from 8.30am today. All they were causing was delays in people getting their kids to school and others getting to work.

Including the ones who are a 5 minute walk away from school. I kid you not, but my next door neighbour drives her kids to the local post primary school, which is literally a 2 or 3 minute walk across the road. Takes longer to drive.

Inquitus · 07-10-2020 9:33pm

The number of U14's infected is much higher than I would have thought.

Separately, the latest figures from NPHET this evening show that of a total of 5,925 cases identified in the last fortnight, 9% - or around 530 - have been in children aged 14 or under.

25% - or around 1,480 - are in young people aged between 15 and 24 years of age.

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/1007/1170104-schools-covid-19/

meeeeh · 07-10-2020 9:42pm

Inquitus wrote: »

The number of U14's infected is much higher than I would have thought.

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/1007/1170104-schools-covid-19/

I don't think it's that surprising considering most clusters are in homes. However it does show schools for younger kids aren't overly an issue. They probably have more contacts than adults. 15 to 24 bracket is an issue. A third smaller age span and a lot more infections.

Icyseanfitz · 07-10-2020 9:51pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't think it's that surprising considering most clusters are in homes. However it does show schools for younger kids aren't overly an issue. They probably have more contacts than adults. 15 to 24 bracket is an issue. A third smaller age span and a lot more infections.

And what if a case starts at home goes to school with a kid infects another kid who then brings it home, is that entirely a private home covid case where school plays no part?

meeeeh · 07-10-2020 10:12pm

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

And what if a case starts at home goes to school with a kid infects another kid who then brings it home, is that entirely a private home covid case where school plays no part?

And where did I say that?

Under 14's are about a fifth of Irish population and represent less than 10% of Covid cases. Next bracket is about 12% (+/- I'm too lazy to use calculator) of population and has 25% of cases. The prevalence of covid in that bracket is 4 times as high as among younger kids who are a lot harder to keep apart from each other in schools or crèches. I never claimed that there are no transmissions among young(ish) kids in school but it is not the age bracket that's overly affected. Considering the size of the group 9% of cases or so isn't that much.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/710767/irish-population-by-age/#:~:text=In 2019 there were approximately,15 to 24 year old's.

Icyseanfitz · 07-10-2020 10:42pm

meeeeh wrote: »

And where did I say that?

Under 14's are about a fifth of Irish population and represent less than 10% of Covid cases. Next bracket is about 12% (+/- I'm too lazy to use calculator) of population and has 25% of cases. The prevalence of covid in that bracket is 4 times as high as among younger kids who are a lot harder to keep apart from each other in schools or crèches. I never claimed that there are no transmissions among young(ish) kids in school but it is not the age bracket that's overly affected. Considering the size of the group 9% of cases or so isn't that much.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/710767/irish-population-by-age/#:~:text=In%202019%20there%20were%20approximately,15%20to%2024%20year%20old's.

but what about the adults that everyone of those kids interact with? what percentage of the population are we talking now?

07-10-2020 11:02pm

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

but what about the adults that everyone of those kids interact with? what percentage of the population are we talking now?

Kids at getting it at 50% of the rates that young adults are yet it is the kids passing it on we should be more worried about?

Icyseanfitz · 07-10-2020 11:10pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Kids at getting it at 50% of the rates that young adults are yet it is the kids passing it on we should be worried about?

so that 50% (what precise age group are we talking) spread is acceptable. and we shouldn't attempt to mitigate it at all?

wirelessdude01 · 07-10-2020 11:10pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Kids at getting it at 50% of the rates that young adults are yet it is the kids passing it on we should be worried about?

Well all the science suggests that kids of 10+ pass it on at the same rate as adults.

irishblessing · 08-10-2020 6:22am

Deleted User wrote: »

Kids at getting it at 50% of the rates that young adults are yet it is the kids passing it on we should be worried about?

I'm worried about it. At least 10's of thousands are worried about it going by the number of members on the FB group. All the teachers/principals unions are worried about it. NPHET/top doctors & scientists of the country are worried about it. Tony Holohan is worried about it. Probably most of the country. But Raind on boards isn't worried. Cool story. :cool:

08-10-2020 7:07am

irishblessing wrote: »

I'm worried about it. At least 10's of thousands are worried about it going by the number of members on the FB group. All the teachers/principals unions are worried about it. NPHET/top doctors & scientists of the country are worried about it. Tony Holohan is worried about it. Probably most of the country. But Raind on boards isn't worried. Cool story. :cool:

Fixed my post to include the word “more”, eg we should be more worried about where the disease is rampant that in groups where it is lower than society as a whole

irishblessing · 08-10-2020 7:08am

Deleted User wrote: »

Fixed my post to include the word “more”, eg we should be more worried about where the disease is rampant that in groups where it is lower than society as a whole

We can keep our eye on more than one ball.

patnor1011 · 08-10-2020 7:33am

I am worried that schools are being sabotaged by something like death by a thousand cuts. Teacher send 5 girls home from my daughter class yesterday because they had the audacity to sneeze.
The day before the same. I will see how many today but by the end of the week they will say remaining few to stay at the home as there is no point to open for the few of them left. All the while they are actively bullied that they must have just their uniform on without a jumper. Virtually no heating and windows opened. This is pure insanity.
I told her to keep the jumper on but she is afraid as any other girl who tried got ordered to take it off as the only uniform to be worn school policy.

She is going crazy with a mask on all day. Only couple weeks on and she is getting rash on the face where the mask is touching skin. Being young girl her age she is very concerned about this and we see how badly this affect her.

mirrorwall14 · 08-10-2020 7:45am

Look in the sports shops for under armour they can wear under the uniform. That’s what’s being worn by my own boy and others.

With regards the face mask can you try a different type? I find cotton or surgical masks by far the least irritating and I change every two class periods or so (I’m a teacher). The foamy ones are horrendous for my skin

I’m very surprised to hear about the no jumper policy. Do you mean their own jumper? Maybe that’s why? That’s the reason the underarmour is so popular. It’s thin, get the fleecy feel inside one, and it’s warm

Also the windows and doors really do need to be open considering how many people are in the classrooms. The ventilation is absolutely necessary considering we are not properly social distancing or limiting contacts in school

Icyseanfitz · 08-10-2020 9:08am

patnor1011 wrote: »

I am worried that schools are being sabotaged by something like death by a thousand cuts. Teacher send 5 girls home from my daughter class yesterday because they had the audacity to sneeze.
The day before the same. I will see how many today but by the end of the week they will say remaining few to stay at the home as there is no point to open for the few of them left. All the while they are actively bullied that they must have just their uniform on without a jumper. Virtually no heating and windows opened. This is pure insanity.
I told her to keep the jumper on but she is afraid as any other girl who tried got ordered to take it off as the only uniform to be worn school policy.

She is going crazy with a mask on all day. Only couple weeks on and she is getting rash on the face where the mask is touching skin. Being young girl her age she is very concerned about this and we see how badly this affect her.

None of us like masks, they are there to keep your daughter and your family safe.

agoodpunt · 08-10-2020 9:17am

schools opening is the reason for an approaching level 5 they must wear masks I have seen very few wearing with no socail distance hence the increase in cases
contributing to desimation in many businesses especailly in hospitility and social outlets for others

Funsterdelux · 08-10-2020 10:38am

An excellent presentation on how the virus is transmitted and how to protect ourselves, esp for schools.

SLIDE SHOW

Icyseanfitz · 08-10-2020 10:47am

Funsterdelux wrote: »

An excellent presentation on how the virus is transmitted and how to protect ourselves, esp for schools.

SLIDE SHOW

We simply cannot comply with the guidelines in that document, go outside, cut down on numbers, social distance, wear correct ppe, clean everything, use low voices. This is why we all have an issue with how schools are running at the moment, every bit of scientific advice for minimizing covid transmission is thrown out the window for educators in Ireland.

Lillyfae · 08-10-2020 10:49am

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

We simply cannot comply with the guidelines in that document, go outside, cut down on numbers, social distance, wear correct ppe, clean everything. This is why we all have an issue with how schools are running at the moment, every bit of scientific advice for minimizing covid transmission is thrown out the window for educators in Ireland.

Which parts of the document are unworkable?

Icyseanfitz · 08-10-2020 10:51am

Lillyfae wrote: »

Which parts of the document are unworkable?

Cut down on interactions, no 1, use quite voices, no 2, go outside, no 3, given correct ppe gear, no 4, clean surfaces properly, no 5

Lillyfae · 08-10-2020 10:56am

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Cut down on interactions, no 1, use quite voices, no 2, go outside, no 3, given correct ppe gear, no 4, clean surfaces properly, no 5

Cut down on interactions- close staff room, meetings done remotely
use *quiet voices- microphones
go outside- self explanatory, it's not raining all the time
given correct ppe gear- wasn't there funding allocated? is it already gone?
clean surfaces properly- why would this be difficult?

Icyseanfitz · 08-10-2020 10:58am

Lillyfae wrote: »

Cut down on interactions- close staff room, meetings done remotely
use *quiet voices- microphones
go outside- self explanatory, it's not raining all the time
given correct ppe gear- wasn't there funding allocated? is it already gone?
clean surfaces properly- why would this be difficult?

All easily done :rolleyes: should have you running the department

Lillyfae · 08-10-2020 11:02am

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

All easily done :rolleyes: should have you running the department

They should certainly have someone with relevant experience running it.

Schools closed until February? (part 3)

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