Next%- the ongoing debate

partyguinness · 01-10-2020 9:40am #1

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/sep/30/eliud-kipchoge-denies-platform-nike-shoes-offer-london-race-advantage

I have a pair and yes they absolutely give me faster times. I guess they are fair as long as everyone else wear them!

I wear them sparingly. I have them just over 12 months and probably worn them 4-5 times. I wore them for 2 Parkruns on New Years day just gone and then again about 2 weeks ago just for a cheeky 60min run.

I have run them same 10k route probably 14-15 times in the past 4 months in Clifton 6 Hokas. It is flat and on a cycle path. With the Next% I ran it on average 10-15 seconds per km quicker and without feeling it. In fact I ran a 44min 10 KM which included the 10 minutes of a w/u and c/d.

Rather than a standard Wednesday evening steady 60 min run if I had rocked up to a 10k roadrace with gameface on I would have obliterated my 10k PB down to 40min.

Yes of course you still have to get and run but anyone who says they do not give an advantage is in dream land.

Murph_D · 01-10-2020 9:42pm

partyguinness wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/sep/30/eliud-kipchoge-denies-platform-nike-shoes-offer-london-race-advantage

I have a pair and yes they absolutely give me faster times. I guess they are fair as long as everyone else wear them!

I wear them sparingly. I have them just over 12 months and probably worn them 4-5 times. I wore them for 2 Parkruns on New Years day just gone and then again about 2 weeks ago just for a cheeky 60min run.

I have run them same 10k route probably 14-15 times in the past 4 months in Clifton 6 Hokas. It is flat and on a cycle path. With the Next% I ran it on average 10-15 seconds per km quicker and without feeling it. In fact I ran a 44min 10 KM which included the 10 minutes of a w/u and c/d.

Rather than a standard Wednesday evening steady 60 min run if I had rocked up to a 10k roadrace with gameface on I would have obliterated my 10k PB down to 40min.

Yes of course you still have to get and run but anyone who says they do not give an advantage is in dream land.

The article is about the Alphafly, not Vaporfly, which you probably have. I have a pair too, and yes, there’s no doubt they ‘work’. But as you say yourself, if your competitors are wearing them too, where’s the advantage?

They certainly feel great and they certainly help you run faster with less apparent effort. You can’t argue with the results. Ultimately they lead to Marathon times coming down at the competitive end of all levels, including GFA marathon standards. I feel I have to wear them to have any chance of making the London standard, for example, although the shoes will probably see those times reduced as well, shifting the goalposts in response to the improved times all round.

OOnegative · 02-10-2020 8:57am

Murph_D wrote: »

The article is about the Alphafly, not Vaporfly, which you probably have. I have a pair too, and yes, there’s no doubt they ‘work’. But as you say yourself, if your competitors are wearing them too, where’s the advantage?

They certainly feel great and they certainly help you run faster with less apparent effort. You can’t argue with the results. Ultimately they lead to Marathon times coming down at the competitive end of all levels, including GFA marathon standards. I feel I have to wear them to have any chance of making the London standard, for example, although the shoes will probably see those times reduced as well, shifting the goalposts in response to the improved times all round.

Cheat!!!!!

healy1835 · 02-10-2020 9:45am

Is there anybody saying they don't make a difference? I've ran a good few races in the NEXT% and the improvements haven't been as marked for me as they have for other guys I train with...but I aint toeing the line in anything else. Like Murph said, when you're chasing qualifying times etc you don't want to be at a disadvantage to the next guy.

TFBubendorfer · 02-10-2020 9:59am

OOnegative wrote: »

Cheat!!!!!

*groan*

The Statler and Waldorf tribute act is at it again!

OOnegative · 02-10-2020 10:25am

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

*groan*

The Statler and Waldorf tribute act is at it again!

I was only joking, each to there own on wearing them, they’re legal so no cheating involved. I myself won’t as the price is ridiculous.

Swashbuckler · 02-10-2020 11:48am

I get that anyone chasing a GFA or at the pointy end of the field has no choice but to wear them. What I can't get my head around is mid pack runners who's only competition is with themselves and their own personal improvement insisting they need to wear them coz everyone else is.

I guess in time, the more they're worn the more the gains will level out.

partyguinness · 02-10-2020 12:23pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I get that anyone chasing a GFA or at the pointy end of the field has no choice but to wear them. What I can't get my head around is mid pack runners who's only competition is with themselves and their own personal improvement insisting they need to wear them coz everyone else is.

I guess in time, the more they're worn the more the gains will level out.

...because the competition with themselves is still a competition albeit with themsleves I guess and their own personal improvement.

But yeah you cannot help but feel a bit of a tit rocking around at 9minutes miling in €250.00 runners.

Unthought Known · 02-10-2020 1:25pm

partyguinness wrote: »

But yeah you cannot help but feel a bit of a tit rocking around at 9minutes miling in €250.00 runners.

Unless you used to run at 9:20 per mile and they have helped you achieve your first sub 4.

average_runner · 02-10-2020 1:38pm

partyguinness wrote: »

...because the competition with themselves is still a competition albeit with themsleves I guess and their own personal improvement.

But yeah you cannot help but feel a bit of a tit rocking around at 9minutes miling in €250.00 runners.

Each to their own sure. But if you put a euro away for each km you run they be affordable

Haven't bought a pair yet, don't think my current fitness warrants me wearing them

and still ricky villa · 02-10-2020 2:36pm

They are cheatalicious. So far I've only managed a 10k pb with them. They went back in the bag after Manchester got cancelled.

I'm a long term Mizuno wearer and their new Enerzy foam is disappointing. Slightly more bouncy but nowhere near the Nikes. They've missed a trick by not making the Wave plate more springy

I'll stick with the Nikes for race pace and actual races. I'm skirting around sub 3 so feel I deserve them

Annie get your Run · 02-10-2020 2:59pm

Haven't allrunning shoes in the last, what - 20 years? been designed and manufactured to help runners run faster? Why are these any different? Everything elites wear/eat/do is designed to improve performance so if they're not illegal then there's no cheating involved.

OOnegative · 02-10-2020 3:09pm

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Haven't allrunning shoes in the last, what - 20 years? been designed and manufactured to help runners run faster? Why are these any different? Everything elites wear/eat/do is designed to improve performance so if they're not illegal then there's no cheating involved.

Sssssh, stop talking common sense.......

Swashbuckler · 02-10-2020 3:15pm

Annie get your Run wrote:

Haven't allrunning shoes in the last, what - 20 years? been designed and manufactured to help runners run faster? Why are these any different? Everything elites wear/eat/do is designed to improve performance so if they're not illegal then there's no cheating involved.

I don't disagree in principle but......to me these are more of a single leap forward than previous runners. Not that it matters really I guess.

If I run a 35 minute 10k next week in Next % it won't tell me anything about whether I'm a better runner than when I ran a 36 min 10k in Adizero.....

adrian522 · 02-10-2020 4:43pm

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Haven't allrunning shoes in the last, what - 20 years? been designed and manufactured to help runners run faster? Why are these any different? Everything elites wear/eat/do is designed to improve performance so if they're not illegal then there's no cheating involved.

These are different because the scale of the jump is unprecedented, they are not available to everyone and they make making comparisons to other races (even quite recent races) completely redundant.

But the main problem is some people will get more of an improvement then others from these shoes, so the question then becomes who is the better athlete? And how do you judge that question when watching a race?

To my mind they have made a complete mess of road distance running. Records mean nothing anymore. A 2:05 from 5 years ago is much more impressive than a 2:03 now.

Annie get your Run · 02-10-2020 5:36pm

adrian522 wrote: »

These are different because the scale of the jump is unprecedented, they are not available to everyone and they make making comparisons to other races (even quite recent races) completely redundant.

But the main problem is some people will get more of an improvement then others from these shoes, so the question then becomes who is the better athlete? And how do you judge that question when watching a race?

To my mind they have made a complete mess of road distance running. Records mean nothing anymore. A 2:05 from 5 years ago is much more impressive than a 2:03 now.

This is the bit that clarifies it for me, that makes sense. Not sure about the 'who's the better athlete' bit though as surely shoes have always benefited some runners more than others (shoes you swear by will give someone else an achilleas injury!). Presumably this will all settle down when all manufacturers have their version and runners will be on a more equal footing (excuse the pun)?

adrian522 · 02-10-2020 5:57pm

I mean the Nike shoes may give one athlete a 5% improvement and another athlete a 3% improvement, so Athlete A wins the race, but is that because of better physiology, better training or a better adaption to these new shoes? We don't know, which is the issue I have with all this.

Advances in shoe technology in the past were very gradual so didn't really affect the results nearly as much as this latest generation of shoes does.

The good thing now is at least there are some regulations and also there are competitors to Nike bringing out their own versions.

Tigerandahalf · 02-10-2020 8:45pm

The problem I have with these is that they make a mockery of historic records. A person who ran a sub 60 10 mile 5 years ago could compare themselves to someone who ran it 20 or 50 years ago. But with these shoes that changes things.

There is also the issue of the crazy price. Nearly €300 for the new Alphaflys.
A teenager could steal a title by having well to do parents versus someone who can't fork out that money.

I'd prefer if they were banned but I will probably have to buy at some stage, as someone said before to me you will soon be disadvantaged as everyone else has them.

Swashbuckler · 02-10-2020 8:48pm

Tigerandahalf wrote:

I'd prefer if they were banned but I will probably have to buy at some stage, as someone said before to me you will soon be disadvantaged as everyone else has them.

Unless you're at the pointy end or looking for a GFA time then why are you disadvantaged?

Tigerandahalf · 02-10-2020 8:59pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Unless you're at the pointy end or looking for a GFA time then why are you disadvantaged?

Many reasons -
The fellas who were a minute behind you are now a minute ahead of you.
Various prizes are handed out at all levels from a local 5k fundraiser to county and national titles at all age grade levels. You can be guaranteed the people taking the spots will be wearing them.

I wouldn't mind if these were used in training as well and offered quicker recovery times etc. Then you could say they were a natural advance.
But these shoes are just targeted at one off races to gain time.

If everyone ends up buying them at 300 a pop who ends up being the winner?

It is just disappointing there wasn't more of a push against them but if you want Nike and Co. to sponsor your events I guess this is the trade off.

You see it at the top level with Russian doping let offs and potential sponsorship for the governing bodies.

SnappyDresser · 02-10-2020 9:50pm

This talk of the latest superdoper trainers/racing should got me thinking about Emil Zatopek who ran workouts in his army boots in the forests in deep snow; ran in sand; ran while carrying others on his back. He reckoned that if he ran with heavy boots that when it came to race day and he wore significantly lighter footwear he had an advantage... and he cleaned up at the Olympics

Limpy · 03-10-2020 5:00pm

Anybody can buy them. Nike have designed a great product. They marketed it to perfection with an athlete who would beat the rest without the shoes anyway. I said it last year the Vaporfly/Next% will be more important to a runner then his GPS on race day. Game changer by Nike, for which they deserve credit for developing a superior product.

MY BAD · 04-10-2020 1:03am

I've noticed a lot of athletes are choosing the vaporfly over the Alphafly for the London marathon. The Alphafly isn't for everyone

Marty Bird · 04-10-2020 5:18pm

MY BAD wrote: »

I've noticed a lot of athletes are choosing the vaporfly over the Alphafly for the London marathon. The Alphafly isn't for everyone

I wonder would that be down to the route and expected conditions ? I have read some reviews the Alphas are not the best on corners. I haven’t ran in the Alphas yet but had a run today in the Vapours what a shoe.

Limpy · 04-10-2020 5:56pm

When Hoka had been doing big stacks for age's nobody had a problem. Nike got a better lightweight foam and put a plate on top. Genius development.

What amazes me is how others, Hoka included never saw it coming. And when it was out there in 2017? Nobody tried to emulate it until recently when they had a choice A. Forget about shoes as Nike have a great shoe or B design a similar shoe.

Desi linden wore a prototype Brook's when she won Boston.

The shoe is here to stay. Comply or cry.

Marty Bird · 04-10-2020 6:51pm

Limpy wrote: »

When Hoka had been doing big stacks for age's nobody had a problem. Nike got a better lightweight foam and put a plate on top. Genius development.

What amazes me is how others, Hoka included never saw it coming. And when it was out there in 2017? Nobody tried to emulate it until recently when they had a choice A. Forget about shoes as Nike have a great shoe or B design a similar shoe.

Desi linden wore a prototype Brook's when she won Boston.

The shoe is here to stay. Comply or cry.

Seen someone out with the Carbon X some stack height on them in the flesh.

Ceepo · 04-10-2020 9:19pm

Kipchoges performance today shows that runners, even alpha flys, are only one part of what makes someone run fast times.

OOnegative · 04-10-2020 10:05pm

Ceepo wrote: »

Kipchoges performance today shows that runners, even alpha flys, are only one part of what makes someone run fast times.

Ah that’s completely unfair, we all know how hard it is to run with a blocked ear!!

Did he really give a to$$ today, it wasn’t a real marathon regardless how much the London crew tried to sell it, probably main reason Bekele pulled out.

TFBubendorfer · 05-10-2020 9:59am

OOnegative wrote: »

Ah that’s completely unfair, we all know how hard it is to run with a blocked ear!!

Did he really give a to$$ today, it wasn’t a real marathon regardless how much the London crew tried to sell it, probably main reason Bekele pulled out.

Talk about unfair!

He was limping in the finishing area. He clearly was having issues.
Most elite marathon runners last 2 years at the top before they start to falter. He has reigned supreme for 7 years. And you claim he didn't give a toss!

OOnegative · 05-10-2020 10:02am

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Talk about unfair!

He was limping in the finishing area. He clearly was having issues.
Most elite marathon runners last 2 years at the top before they start to falter. He has reigned supreme for 7 years. And you claim he didn't give a toss!

I was being sarcastic, something that doesn’t really come across on Boards.

ariana` · 05-10-2020 10:09am

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I get that anyone chasing a GFA or at the pointy end of the field has no choice but to wear them. What I can't get my head around is mid pack runners who's only competition is with themselves and their own personal improvement insisting they need to wear them coz everyone else is.

I guess in time, the more they're worn the more the gains will level out.

Maybe because races don't just take place at the pointy end of things? I do a few local races every year where there'd always be the familiar names/faces of people who are thereabouts my standard that I'd use as markers to spur me on, nothing like having a marker to motivate you mid-race or feeling like there's a mark on your back, all friendly of course :P

partyguinness wrote: »

...because the competition with themselves is still a competition albeit with themsleves I guess and their own personal improvement.

But yeah you cannot help but feel a bit of a tit rocking around at 9minutes miling in €250.00 runners.

Unthought Known wrote: »

Unless you used to run at 9:20 per mile and they have helped you achieve your first sub 4.

This exactly. Times are all relative to the individual, one man's sub 3 is another man's sub 4. I still remember the buzz of breaking 30 mins for 5k, it was no less a buzz than breaking 25 or 24 or 23...

I haven't invested in expensive shoes (yet), I'm still fortunately making big gains from training but I certainly won't rule out investing in them at some point. If it's the difference between hanging up my shoes having achieved an aspirational time that is a personal target for me or missing out by mere seconds then I'm not ashamed to admit I'd consider spending the money for those couple of seconds. Just because I'm unlikely to be contesting for the podium doesn't mean I should be embarrassed to wear the latest shoe technology - in my opinion

Rossi7 · 05-10-2020 11:10am

Stop speaking sense Ariana, it's frowned upon around these waters

TFBubendorfer · 05-10-2020 11:16am

OOnegative wrote: »

I was being sarcastic, something that doesn’t really come across on Boards.

Apologies, my bad! I thought it was unusual of you to post sh*t like that!

IvoryTower · 05-10-2020 11:47am

I have them in a rotation of 4 different runners and damn it feels good on Vaporfly day.

ultrapercy · 05-10-2020 11:47am

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Apologies, my bad! I thought it was unusual of you to post sh*t like that!

it was obvious to me from very early on that Kipchoge wasnt right. At his best he seems to float and his upper body is almost completely still. Yesterday there was a lot of effort going in and he seemed to be digging early on. I still thought he'd have enough to win. Off day, nothing more and probably the best race ever to have an off day. Incredible that what was the world record when I started running is now a very bad day for the top guys. It demonstrates 2 things very clearly 1. marathon running standards have reached a barely believable level 2. I'm old.

Duanington · 05-10-2020 2:39pm

Each to their own, if someone wants to spend a few quid to get a better time or position that is relevant to their previous levels, fair play to them.

I picked up a pair earlier this year, ran a pretty fast tempo in them but hated the feel of them and found they aggravated a back problem I have. I think I've worn them once since then.

I've no interest in them, not out of principal, simply because I don't enjoy running in them. I prefer to have a bit of contact with the surface I'm running on but that's a personal thing.

They're here to stay though, at some stage, there'll be as many shoes with carbon plates as without in a year or 2.

If someone goes and breaks 24 minutes for the first time over 5k... and does it while wearing a pair, they've broken 24 minutes and nobody can or should take that away from them.

iancairns · 05-10-2020 2:50pm

Marty Bird wrote: »

I wonder would that be down to the route and expected conditions ? I have read some reviews the Alphas are not the best on corners. I haven’t ran in the Alphas yet but had a run today in the Vapours what a shoe.

I have both Vapors from last year the Alpha's this year.

Alpha's are far more stable on corners than the Vapors.

Alpha's are chunkier with extra weight. I am training for the Dublin Virtual and covered 20miles in them yesterday and never felt as good at mile 20 as I did yesterday in them.

healy1835 · 05-10-2020 3:03pm

Duanington wrote: »

I picked up a pair earlier this year, ran a pretty fast tempo in them but hated the feel of them and found they aggravated a back problem I have. I think I've worn them once since then.

So eh, DD, what size are you?

IvoryTower · 05-10-2020 3:05pm

ill give you 100e for size 11

Swashbuckler · 05-10-2020 3:17pm

I wouldn't disagree with points made above. I just don't really see how general mid packers (myself included) are somehow disadvantaged without them. Don't get me wrong. As soon as I can, I'll buy a pair (maybe not the Nikes) but it'll be purely for me, not because I feel like I can't compete.

Duanington · 05-10-2020 3:17pm

healy1835 wrote: »

So eh, DD, what size are you?

ha ha - Size 10 but they actually found a home this weekend...sorry

Duanington · 05-10-2020 3:20pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I wouldn't disagree with points made above. I just don't really see how general mid packers (myself included) are somehow disadvantaged without them. Don't get me wrong. As soon as I can, I'll buy a pair (maybe not the Nikes) but it'll be purely for me, not because I feel like I can't compete.

I suppose it depends on what your aims are...competing against others around you? You're probably at a disadvantage, they're more likely to be wearing them.

Competing against yourself? No issue then

Running a race to run hard and get that "race feeling", no issue

Swashbuckler · 05-10-2020 3:38pm

Duanington wrote: »

I suppose it depends on what your aims are...competing against others around you? You're probably at a disadvantage, they're more likely to be wearing them.

Competing against yourself? No issue then

Running a race to run hard and get that "race feeling", no issue

I'm somewhat biased too by two friends of mine who have no issue having ten pints and chipper every weekend and then swear they're disadvantaged if they dont have the shoes.......really tho?

im cranky today - don't mind me :pac:

Rossi7 · 05-10-2020 3:47pm

Can't really see the problem with someone who wants to wear an elite pair of running shoes the same way a pub league footballer wants to wear a pair of predator or €200 pair of football boots.

Duanington · 05-10-2020 3:49pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I'm somewhat biased too by two friends of mine who have no issue having ten pints and chipper every weekend and then swear they're disadvantaged if they dont have the shoes.......really tho?

im cranky today - don't mind me :pac:

lol - I know a few people like that myself

Swashbuckler · 05-10-2020 4:20pm

Rossi7 wrote: »

Can't really see the problem with someone who wants to wear an elite pair of running shoes the same way a pub league footballer wants to wear a pair of predator or €200 pair of football boots.

I don't see a problem with anyone wearing them. Each to their own. My problem is people insisting they have no choice but to wear them.

I wouldn't disagree with your predator boots example either. Or the 20 stone lads spending 5 grand on an ultra light race bike. Each to their own but don't say you have no choice...

partyguinness · 05-10-2020 4:34pm

I am enjoying reeling in my Strava segments that I smashed last year with Next% with my Hoka Cliftons this year. The unreal times I posted last year in Next% have now been wittled away in the past few weeks wearing nothing but Hoka Cliftons and all the training.

Having said that if I now stuck on the Next% fair to say I would push down the times again. Back to the start.

AuldManKing · 06-10-2020 1:45pm

Did Scullion wear the Nikes on Sunday - I seen a photo but couldn't make out if they were a Next%, an Alphafly or an UA prototype.

He hadn't got them blacked out like normal.

btw - not knocking his performance - just asking a question.
His time was faster than his previous few marathons when he did wear nikes - so his training is obviously improving his performance.

OOnegative · 06-10-2020 1:57pm

AuldManKing wrote: »

Did Scullion wear the Nikes on Sunday - I seen a photo but couldn't make out if they were a Next%, an Alphafly or an UA prototype.

He hadn't got them blacked out like normal.

btw - not knocking his performance - just asking a question.
His time was faster than his previous few marathons when he did wear nikes - so his training is obviously improving his performance.

https://images.app.goo.gl/MZm2QkbxVaxgBAeY6

White Next%?

healy1835 · 06-10-2020 3:39pm

OOnegative wrote: »

https://images.app.goo.gl/MZm2QkbxVaxgBAeY6

White Next%?

They're a pair of the 'Next% By You'. Were online briefly last month. You were basically able to customise colours and get the Next% midsole with the Vaporfly Flyknit upper etc. He got a white pair and a pack of black Sharpies i think

Duanington · 06-10-2020 4:58pm

AuldManKing wrote: »

Did Scullion wear the Nikes on Sunday - I seen a photo but couldn't make out if they were a Next%, an Alphafly or an UA prototype.

He hadn't got them blacked out like normal.

btw - not knocking his performance - just asking a question.
His time was faster than his previous few marathons when he did wear nikes - so his training is obviously improving his performance.

They were Nike alright, I actually thought they were Alphas with some creative colouring in done

Next%- the ongoing debate

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