Green Party questioning Travellers intelligence?

is_that_so · 03-10-2020 10:09am

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Oh my god. How patronising. Imagine saying that in an interview.

If someone can't explain what they mean in an interview they definitely need to be reminded how not to do it in real life. You need to be aware of how little sense it's making to people. Smart communicators adjust their language level.

Everlong1 · 03-10-2020 10:11am

Gruffalux wrote: »

Okay. Fair enough. You want all political people to dumb down the language when refering to all areas of civic, economic and political life. At least that is consistent. In the long run it will reinforce an elitist oligarchy ruling over the feudal peasants but sure it's been done before many a time when literacy or the art of writing was kept from the lower classes. Encore une fois! This time it will be better!

Sweet Jesus. You have to be a student Socialist Worker activist or something are you? With the touchingly naive belief that underneath Paddy's pint swilling arse scratching surface there's a sophisticated political animal just waiting to be unleashed. Good luck with that.

I've had plenty of experiences where I made the mistake of treating people with the respect of assuming they were on the same intellectual level as me. I learned the hard way that the best approach was to assume everyone is a moron until proven otherwise. My life became a lot easier then. Now I can talk ****e about soap operas and football with the best of them, then infiltrate their subconscious with my revolutionary ideas.

listermint · 03-10-2020 10:12am

RandomViewer wrote: »

It's the spoon fed trust fund mentality, anyone outside their clique must be stupid,
pushing people to borrow money to retrofit their homes that they'll never see a return on in their lifetime, Greens are offspring of bankers,they are just pimping the parents business

Wait should we all be living in cold caves now ?

Ffs I've no time for the green party. But retrofitting your own home so that is comfortable to live in and has low running cost into old age is smart. Anyone who thinks it's not needs to get off mad conspiracy forums on Facebook.

Nonsense

riffmongous · 03-10-2020 10:13am

Gruffalux wrote: »

Country people don't talk to each other saying words like budgetary deficit or stakeholders or social cohesion either, but it's okay...when people in suits say those words to us or we hear them coming out as if by magic from the wee wireless we know what they mean.

Yeah and the local councillor talks like that when he's around the village or at a hurling match does he?:rolleyes:

riffmongous · 03-10-2020 10:15am

is_that_so wrote: »

If someone can't explain what they mean in an interview they definitely need to be reminded how not to do it in real life. You need to be aware of how little sense it's making to people. Smart communicators adjust their language level.

It wasn't an interview though.. it was a green party convention

Gruffalux · 03-10-2020 10:17am

Everlong1 wrote: »

. You have to be a student Socialist Worker activist or something are you?

Haha. I will run with that today for my identity

let the party commence. It knocks about 30 years off my age, probably changes my sex and makes up for being labeled a sexist right wing homophobe earlier in the week. Woohoo! Pass the spliff, man.

is_that_so · 03-10-2020 10:21am

riffmongous wrote: »

It wasn't an interview though.. it was a green party convention

Poor communication either way. "Talk to folks at a level they'll understand" is much better condescending way to say it! Personally a fan of the art of paraphrasing as it can avoid those absolutely precise but confusing words that people may not know.

seligehgit · 03-10-2020 10:22am

riffmongous wrote: »

I grew up in a rural village and I never once heard anyone talking about biodiversity. Do I think every country person knows exactly what they mean? Not a chance, I'm sure almost everyone could figure it out quickly but you're not going to connect with your audience that way.

It's hard to take this thread seriously tbh, if a green party person called round to any of the usual people here and starting talking to them about biodiversity they'd be straight away online afterwards starting a thread going on about how out of touch with the common farmer the green party are. Any excuse here just to have a go at them

Do you think every urban voter knows exactly what they mean?

is_that_so · 03-10-2020 10:23am

Everlong1 wrote: »

Sweet Jesus. You have to be a student Socialist Worker activist or something are you? With the touchingly naive belief that underneath Paddy's pint swilling arse scratching surface there's a sophisticated political animal just waiting to be unleashed. Good luck with that.

I've had plenty of experiences where I made the mistake of treating people with the respect of assuming they were on the same intellectual level as me. I learned the hard way that the best approach was to assume everyone is a moron until proven otherwise. My life became a lot easier then. Now I can talk ****e about soap operas and football with the best of them, then infiltrate their subconscious with my revolutionary ideas.

And then they go home and say what a nice guy you are, apart from the stupid crap about revolutions!

riffmongous · 03-10-2020 10:24am

seligehgit wrote: »

Do you think every urban voter knows exactly what they mean?

Of course not, but she wasn't talking about that, she was specifically addressing activists in rural areas

riffmongous · 03-10-2020 10:25am

is_that_so wrote: »

Poor communication either way. "Talk to folks at a level they'll understand" is much better condescending way to say it! Personally a fan of the art of paraphrasing as it can avoid those absolutely precise but confusing words that people may not know.

If you look beyond the 'big words' headline that's what says

Panrich · 03-10-2020 10:28am

riffmongous wrote: »

I grew up in a rural village and I never once heard anyone talking about biodiversity. Do I think every country person knows exactly what they mean? Not a chance, I'm sure almost everyone could figure it out quickly but you're not going to connect with your audience that way.

It's hard to take this thread seriously tbh, if a green party person called round to any of the usual people here and starting talking to them about biodiversity they'd be straight away online afterwards starting a thread going on about how out of touch with the common farmer the green party are. Any excuse here just to have a go at them

And what about Ballymun or Clondalkin? Do they talk much about biodiversity around the dinner table there?

riffmongous · 03-10-2020 10:29am

Panrich wrote: »

And what about Ballymun or Clondalkin? Do they talk much about biodiversity around the dinner table there?

Was she talking about clondalkin?

Marhay70 · 03-10-2020 10:30am

Oh good, another reason for Travellers to be offended.

Gruffalux · 03-10-2020 10:32am

Ms Garvey also advised party members to: "Wear the Clare jersey, go to the hurling matches, get to know your local priest."

Haha she is gas. A tweed hat too? A shillelagh maybe? Chew on a stalk of wild cereal from the hedgerow? Maybe you could go all in and use a switch to drive a fat heifer before you wherever you go, calling out "hup!"?

is_that_so · 03-10-2020 10:33am

riffmongous wrote: »

If you look beyond the 'big words' headline that's what says

Did they really have to turn it into junior infant mode?

Let's talk about the flowers, talk about the cattle. Talk about the robin, the sparrow…

I think colloquialism is important and I think simple vocabulary includes everybody.

My version of it

It's important you try to relate what you are saying to people and what they do in their lives so stay from the big words and long-winded speeches!

Panrich · 03-10-2020 10:33am

riffmongous wrote: »

Was she talking about clondalkin?

No but that’s the issue. Is there a better understanding of green buzzwords in Clondalkin than Clonakilty? She indicated that there was because one is rural.

Yamanoto · 03-10-2020 10:46am

Yurt! wrote: »

That's not the Green Party I recognize in the slightest.'

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/generational-divide-within-green-party-cannot-be-glossed-over-1.4291746

riffmongous · 03-10-2020 10:47am

Panrich wrote: »

No but that’s the issue. Is there a better understanding of green buzzwords in Clondalkin than Clonakilty? She indicated that there was because one is rural.

She was specifically addressing rural activists, nothing to do with Clondalkin

Everlong1 · 03-10-2020 10:57am

Gruffalux wrote: »

Haha. I will run with that today for my identity let the party commence. It knocks about 30 years off my age, probably changes my sex and makes up for being labeled a sexist right wing homophobe earlier in the week. Woohoo! Pass the spliff, man.

Glad to be of service.

Everlong1 · 03-10-2020 11:01am

Gruffalux wrote: »

Ms Garvey also advised party members to: "Wear the Clare jersey, go to the hurling matches, get to know your local priest."

Haha she is gas. A tweed hat too? A shillelagh maybe? Chew on a stalk of wild cereal from the hedgerow? Maybe you could go all in and use a switch to drive a fat heifer before you wherever you go, calling out "hup!"?

It might be an inconvenient truth but she's right. Simple common sense if you want Paddy's vote. In fact if they really want to become a mass movement they should hold some workshop / masterclass sessions in how to carry two pints at all times in case you run into a senior member of Government down the local.

meeeeh · 03-10-2020 11:06am

Fighting Tao wrote: »

People get their knickers in a twist so easily these days.

Communication is only effective if the receiver understands the message. For example, there is no point in an IT expert using technical jargon to those who don’t understand. They have to change words and rephrase into such a manner to assist the message transmission. It is up to the message sender to ensure that the receiver can understand. From all I see here, that is what is going on.

I live in rural area. My neighbours are relatively big farmers, business owners, doctors, teachers, engineers, pharmacists, accountants and similar. I don't think telling us that we don't understand big words will solve their problem.

Despite what green party leftwing thinks their main base is middle class, relatively educated and enthusiastic about going to farmers market and doing a bit of cycling on their holidays. SF and to some extent FF will hoover up voters who don't do big words. Green party are more in danger of alienating well off rural votes they could get than winning any new ones with talking about birds and bees.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 03-10-2020 11:20am

riffmongous wrote: »

Yeah and the local councillor talks like that when he's around the village or at a hurling match does he?:rolleyes:

Actually, one of my local councillors does.

He's in my local discussion group also and we would have many discussions both at meetings and outside in day to day life about similar issues. I wouldn't be a fan of his party but he readily gets our votes because he can discuss our issues with us as equals. We don't always agree with each other but we can and do discuss issues as equals.

Imagine that, discussing issues with folks as equals, absolutely mindblowing concept!

OscarMIlde · 03-10-2020 11:27am

Panrich wrote: »

And what about Ballymun or Clondalkin? Do they talk much about biodiversity around the dinner table there?

There are plenty of very intelligent people in Clondalkin. It's a working class Dublin area that established an Irish speaking community centre, TWO primary gaelscoileanna, and a secondary gealscoil, at a time when it was neither trendy nor government supported to undertake such measures.

TomTomTim · 03-10-2020 11:29am

Everlong1 wrote: »

It might be an inconvenient truth but she's right. .

You're overlooking the point. They singled out rural people for this, when it's just as applicable to people who live in cities.

riffmongous · 03-10-2020 11:32am

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Actually, one of my local councillors does.

He's in my local discussion group also and we would have many discussions both at meetings and outside in day to day life about similar issues. I wouldn't be a fan of his party but he readily gets our votes because he can discuss our issues with us as equals. We don't always agree with each other but we can and do discuss issues as equals.

Imagine that, discussing issues with folks as equals, absolutely mindblowing concept!

As you notice yourself, it's atypical.

LuasSimon · 03-10-2020 11:34am

The greens could do with talking to travellers about. whipping horses and racing them on public roads . Horses are not able to race or trot on road surfaces especially carrying a fat traveller in a chariot as well .

Travellers treatment of horses on roads is the biggest form of animal cruelty on our island but like everything else travellers get away with it .

Buford T. Justice XIX · 03-10-2020 11:41am

riffmongous wrote: »

As you notice yourself, it's atypical.

Curiously, I haven't noticed any outrage from fellow GP attendees at that convention about their attitudes to equality for rural dwellers and Travellers.

I mean, if that attitude was atypical, surely some body of members would have objected and pointed out the fallacies in her presentation and that all voters should be treated equally?

Very curious, that.

Perhaps they might be better served by sorting out their own inadequacies than pointing out others perceived shortcomings?

Fighting Tao · 03-10-2020 11:47am

TheBlackPill wrote: »

Please modify your speech to the target audience.. there nobody insulted or patronised. Fianna Fail canvassers have this down to a fine art.. all things to all men

The speech was modified to the target audience, the Green Party convention. I really don’t get why people are getting so offended. We all modify our speech for the target audience. The target audience here was not the rural population or travellers.

SEPT 23 1989 · 03-10-2020 11:50am

Why would country folk vote for a party who wants to see the destruction of their livelihoods and way of life?

riffmongous · 03-10-2020 12:00pm

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Curiously, I haven't noticed any outrage from fellow GP attendees at that convention about their attitudes to equality for rural dwellers and Travellers.

I mean, if that attitude was atypical, surely some body of members would have objected and pointed out the fallacies in her presentation and that all voters should be treated equally?

Very curious, that.

Perhaps they might be better served by sorting out their own inadequacies than pointing out others perceived shortcomings?

Ah come off it, of course you have to talk to people differently. Do you think farmers don't treat people differently when there is a farming discussion outside the farming forum? Do doctors talk the same way to patients that they would to other doctors?

You can still treat people as equals without treating them equally in every sense, and that's what she was actually saying, treat them normally, don't try to be all high and migthy and try to relate and talk to them instead

"I think colloquialism is important and I think simple vocabulary includes everybody.

"It's not your job to show off that you know cool terms when you’re canvassing. It's to show that you can relate to everybody," she said.

CFC1969 · 03-10-2020 12:02pm

Yamanoto wrote: »

Perhaps that was true back in the day, but the younger wing of the party (including those who vehemently opposed entry into coalition government) are cultural Marxists and SJW's, who's policies are a world away from insulating your attic, taxing carbon and brewing up some elderflower wine.

100%. Their beliefs are international, and see no issues with damaging the Irish economy ( Taxes, Job losses) to meet their goals

StackSteevens · 03-10-2020 12:04pm

OscarMIlde wrote: »

There are plenty of very intelligent people in Clondalkin. It's a working class Dublin area that established an Irish speaking community centre, TWO primary gaelscoileanna, and a secondary gealscoil, at a time when it was neither trendy nor government supported to undertake such measures.

What leads you to imagine that that's evidence of intelligence?

Fighting Tao · 03-10-2020 12:14pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I live in rural area. My neighbours are relatively big farmers, business owners, doctors, teachers, engineers, pharmacists, accountants and similar. I don't think telling us that we don't understand big words will solve their problem.

Despite what green party leftwing thinks their main base is middle class, relatively educated and enthusiastic about going to farmers market and doing a bit of cycling on their holidays. SF and to some extent FF will hoover up voters who don't do big words. Green party are more in danger of alienating well off rural votes they could get than winning any new ones with talking about birds and bees.

Unless they are Green Party members, she was telling your neighbours that they don’t understand big words.

meeeeh · 03-10-2020 12:15pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

The speech was modified to the target audience, the Green Party convention. I really don’t get why people are getting so offended. We all modify our speech for the target audience. The target audience here was not the rural population or travellers.

It's never good to be condescending whoever your message is for. I actually understand what she wanted to say but her delivery wasall wrong. They also never be party for all people and maybe they should decide weather they want to compete for narrow base People Before Profit occupy or go for comfortable class who can afford organic pork or makes vegan dinners from scratch, buy A rated homes and so on. In know there is Greta generation but only some will have buying power their parents have. And frankly retro fit insulation iniciatives will make absolutely no difference to the life of those who can't afford their own home. Green Party are party of people with disposable income. To make themselves attractive to less educated poorer people they will first have to change their policies.

03-10-2020 12:18pm

She would look well in a hiace.

Sacrolyte · 03-10-2020 12:19pm

Yurt! wrote: »

That's not the Green Party I recognize in the slightest. Activists I know are architects, engineers, scientists and in other skilled occupations. Have their head screwed on and are a degree more thoughtful with a more defined vision for the economy and society than the average yahoo from the 'big 2' parties, who can often be just loudmouths on-the-make.

They have an image problem in rural areas, but then again there are parts (only parts mind you) of rural Ireland that are completely resistant to sensible planning and a farming lobby that for the longest time thought it was their constitutioanal right to harm our shared environment (again, they're slowly coming around to the ideas that the environment is there for us all).

That said, this Senator's notions on rural voters and 'big words' are patronising sh*te. The neighbors either side of my homestead, well in the sticks would eat her for breakfast with 'big words.'

I think what you say about farming is insulting.
The reason since God was a boy for farming was to feed the planet not destroy it.

03-10-2020 12:21pm

OscarMIlde wrote: »

There are plenty of very intelligent people in Clondalkin. It's a working class Dublin area that established an Irish speaking community centre, TWO primary gaelscoileanna, and a secondary gealscoil, at a time when it was neither trendy nor government supported to undertake such measures.

Plenty wealthy folk around monastery rd also. It's not all working class.

MrMusician18 · 03-10-2020 12:34pm

riffmongous wrote: »

I grew up in a rural village and I never once heard anyone talking about biodiversity. Do I think every country person knows exactly what they mean? Not a chance, I'm sure almost everyone could figure it out quickly but you're not going to connect with your audience that way.

It's hard to take this thread seriously tbh, if a green party person called round to any of the usual people here and starting talking to them about biodiversity they'd be straight away online afterwards starting a thread going on about how out of touch with the common farmer the green party are. Any excuse here just to have a go at them

To be honest I think you've hit the nail on the head there. There are some posters here who would find fault with anything the greens do.

Tailoring your language to your audience is something that politicians do. For example George Washingtons inauguration speech was to fellow senators and congressmen and the language is of college graduate level. Obama's and Trump's inauguration speech was at a third/fourth grade level.

emaherx · 03-10-2020 12:47pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

To be honest I think you've hit the nail on the head there. There are some posters here who would find fault with anything the greens do.

Tailoring your language to your audience is something that politicians do. For example George Washingtons inauguration speech was to fellow senators and congressmen and the language is of college graduate level. Obama's and Trump's inauguration speech was at a third/fourth grade level.

She said don't talk about biodiversity and sustainability to rural dwellers instead speak about cattle and birds! Sounds fairly aimed at the farming community who would have both those terms in particular regularly discussed with knowledge transfer programs and constant literature from the department of agriculture and the likes of Teagasc. And with more young farmers being trained farmers would have had this as part of their education. It's also something that the farming community is heavily engaged with through several environmental schemes. Probably more knowledge on the subject in the rural community than most urban areas, but even still not many wouldn't understand them.

Also a green party policy to not discuss biodiversity and sustainability is daft, but I've seen little evidence that most of them understand the concepts themselves. Maybe it's don't discuss biodiversity with rural dwellers as they will know too much on the subject and had you your ass on a plate

Buford T. Justice XIX · 03-10-2020 12:51pm

riffmongous wrote: »

Ah come off it, of course you have to talk to people differently. Do you think farmers don't treat people differently when there is a farming discussion outside the farming forum? Do doctors talk the same way to patients that they would to other doctors?

You can still treat people as equals without treating them equally in every sense, and that's what she was actually saying, treat them normally, don't try to be all high and migthy and try to relate and talk to them instead

"If you start engaging with people and you're using - even the word 'sustainable' or 'biodiversity' - this is vocabulary that's new stuff and we shouldn't assume that people understand what they are.

Really now?

I really wonder if this lady has entered rural Ireland in the recent decade. New stuff? We're living in the middle of the country, not in a manicured estate with the odd tree and barely a native plant to be seen.

We see every day in the news how communities are reported as letting small areas return to nature and their delight as they sow imported flowering plants to encourage bees and wildlife and how they should be applauded and lauded for their foresight and green credentials. Yet in their own back gardens is a diversity wilderness and their front lawn paved over.

Yet I have miles of hedgerows, and more added since I took over, with acres of brambles, honeysuckle, alders, whitethorn, blackthorn and countless other species along with the fauna, native fauna at that, living on it. And that's without counting and mentioning the multiple species of native and non native birds of pasture and prey and I'm the one messing up the planet?

The truth is that their terms of reference are so far removed from reality that they aren't able to comprehend our reality. And that convention just shone a very bright light on that reality. They have no intention in engaging with 'others' on equal terms because they don't see us as equals. We're just ignoramuses who cannot appreciate their faultlessness and brilliance. And that's just a simple fact that will be reflected in the next, hopefully soon, election.

Eric Cartman · 03-10-2020 12:58pm

Standard dublin centric academic elitism, goes hand in hand with socialist politics “we have degrees, we know whats best for you”

riffmongous · 03-10-2020 12:58pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

To be honest I think you've hit the nail on the head there. There are some posters here who would find fault with anything the greens do.

Tailoring your language to your audience is something that politicians do. For example George Washingtons inauguration speech was to fellow senators and congressmen and the language is of college graduate level. Obama's and Trump's inauguration speech was at a third/fourth grade level.

It's plain as day, I don't think half of them even read the article or tried to understand what she was saying, before looking to get offended and piling on.

emaherx · 03-10-2020 1:03pm

riffmongous wrote: »

It's plain as day, I don't think half of them even read the article or tried to understand what she was saying, before looking to get offended and piling on.

I read ever word, and it was fairly insulting BS.

Please explain why rural dwellers would be less likely to understand these very common words?

tayto lover · 03-10-2020 1:08pm

Paying any attention to the Green Party is the biggest mistake anyone can make.
They usually cost the taxpayer a lot of money with their airy fairy ideas.

seligehgit · 03-10-2020 1:13pm

riffmongous wrote: »

It's plain as day, I don't think half of them even read the article or tried to understand what she was saying, before looking to get offended and piling on.

What a patronising post.:rolleyes:

Read it in full and there's no lack of clarity in what she meant.

RandomViewer · 03-10-2020 1:22pm

listermint wrote: »

Wait should we all be living in cold caves now ?

Ffs I've no time for the green party. But retrofitting your own home so that is comfortable to live in and has low running cost into old age is smart. Anyone who thinks it's not needs to get off mad conspiracy forums on Facebook.

Nonsense

Houses are mostly comfortable, oil and coal heat them up nicely, Greens want people to spend tens of thousands up front for a small reduction in weekly running costs, that doesn't make any financial sense if it's going to take 20 to 30 years to see any saving.

RandomViewer · 03-10-2020 1:24pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Standard dublin centric academic elitism, goes hand in hand with socialist politics “we have degrees, we know whats best for you”

2 out 3 adults have some sort of third level qualification, it means very little nowadays

riffmongous · 03-10-2020 1:24pm

emaherx wrote: »

I read ever word, and it was fairly insulting BS.

Please explain why rural dwellers would be less likely to understand these very common words?

Because many people just plain aren't interested in it. It's not that they can't understand it, I'm sure most can, but do they want to, not necessarily. No different to urban voters, only that's not what they were talking about, it was a debate on how to win votes in rural areas.

Look if a Green Party activist called to the door, who do you think the average rural person would be more open to talking to:

a) the stranger banging on about biodiversity, sustainability, Kyoto or the Protocol, Paris agreement and the ECCP

or b) the person they recognise from the local matches and tidy towns who is interested in talking about why there was less/more swallows around this year and how bad the weather was this summer

meeeeh · 03-10-2020 1:26pm

riffmongous wrote: »

It's plain as day, I don't think half of them even read the article or tried to understand what she was saying, before looking to get offended and piling on.

Actually I read the article and if I was eligible to vote they would be one if the parties I would consider. However apparently I have to be told really slowly what they stand for for me to understand them. Give me a break this is not anti Green stuff it's anti patronising dismissive attitude.

Green Party questioning Travellers intelligence?

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