Covid 19 Part XXIII-33,444 in ROI(1,792 deaths) 9,541 in NI(577 deaths)(22/09)Read OP

Arghus wrote: »

Well, obviously a controlled environment.

But, I think that either/or binary choice is a false way to frame the situation. 

First of all, I have my doubts about how controlled of an environment a lot of pubs actually are - and how controlled a lot of their patrons often are to boot. I'm sure there's lots of pubs out there that follow every rule and never stray from any guidelines - but we all know there are plenty, plenty, out there that don't.

We all know this.

Also we also all know, even from just reading this thread alone, how many people boast about having a feed of pints and not giving a flying fck about restrictions, time limits - any of it.

I amn't saying everyone is like that and every pub is like that, but this picture of pubs always being these lock-tight-everything-above-board-ultra-sticklers for rules - well, I'm not sure to believe that one Citizen. And now, I don't know about this for sure, but if I was to go back deep into your own post history would I maybe find one or two posts about you yourself staying for hours and getting well plastered in some of these "controlled" environments? If not you, then I'll certainly find literally hundreds of other posters boasting about exactly that. And that's only boards, I don't how many times I've heard of it outside of here - countless, countless, times. Controlled environments? Sometimes, Citizen, sometimes. But, I'm not green enough to believe it all of the time.

And look, people who are going to have house parties are still going to have house parties. Their desire for the craic is not going to be extinguished by two hours in a public house, that's if it sticks to the rules in the first place, of course. Closing time is 11:30 these days. What do you think most groups will do at 11:30 at night? Things are just getting started bro! And you want more rules? - that'll make the pub an even more viable alternative to a house party to those inclined to have one alright - eh, what?

People who go to pubs and obey the rules are not the ones who then will have house parties without the pub being an option. And they aren't the problem.

The problem are the ones who do have the house parties - and I don't believe opening pubs, under strangulated rules and regulations, is going to have much of a material difference in the amount of house parties that take place. The pub usually compliments a party, it's a pit-stop on the journey - in my drunken party going experience; and I have a lot of experience.

If you're going to have a house party then a pub being open or closed isn't going to stop you - they are still going to go on. They've existed for a long time before lockdowns and restrictions. And this is even when pubs were open all the time - some of them even past 11:30 at night!

We were talking earlier about what you think should be the approach. And you seemed to think that there should be greater emphasis on cracking down on private gatherings and house parties and as well as further regulation of wet pubs:



I agree the issue is home gatherings, as opposed to the wet pub. But wet pubs aren't open - it's very hard for them to be the issue if they aren't open.

Limit home gatherings.

That sounds very easy, but I don't think that it is really enforceable - both in terms of the logistics and the basic legality.

There's been limits on home gatherings for ages and they've been widely ignored. Would you be comfortable with legislation that would give Gardai the right to enter private dwellings and start dishing out fines and maybe more, totally upending our culture of policing and the inviolability of private dwellings? Just to make sure, indirectly, that people go to the pub?

And lets say the government went through the tortuous and fractious legal process of signing something like this into law. How many more Gardai would be required to actually police this - dozens? hundreds? I'm sure taking them away from other police work to knock on doors, all across the land, where they suspect a party to be taking place isn't going to prove problematic. And why are we doing all this again? - oh, yeah, because we want pubs to be open.

In reality the government can only do so much. And I'm glad of it. I personally would be concerned if Gardai had the right to enter private dwellings, just because they strongly suspect craic to be taking place - I think that's a step too far on the state's reach. I don't foresee it being a reality, in any case. I think it's a legal minefield and the resources simply aren't there to police it.

The government really can't do much more in real terms to stop people drinking in "uncontrolled" environments. All they can do is place restrictions on the "controlled" environments that, given what is known about how the virus spreads and our specific drinking culture, stand a more than fair chance of being places where the virus can spread. It's something they can do. For the rest - then they have to rely, without coercion, on people being responsible and trying to do the right thing.

It comes down to personal responsibility. People are not obligated to have house parties, people are not obligated to disregard rules on gatherings. It is a personal choice. It is a lame excuse, a total disavowal, of your own capacity for decision making to blame it all pubs being closed. Everyone knows now that house parties and social gatherings are driving rates of infection in the country, ignorance is not an excuse - it's up to individuals to modify their behaviour and try to do the right thing.

It involves sacrifice. Everything in this absolutely shite period of time for everyone involves some form of sacrifice. It does not follow that pubs are closed, ergo, I must have a house party. People should just take responsibility, not whinge constantly and expect the government to hold their hand on every last little thing - and moan when the Goverment does try to hold people's hands - and knuckle down and do our bit until we have this under control again and accept that, given their nature, pubs are always going to be amongst the first places to feel the brunt of restrictions.