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To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

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    #92
    moonage
    Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭moonage


    Graham wrote: »
    while flu deaths are running at about five times Covid-19 levels, they are markedly down on the average of the past five years. A mean of 1,394 people have died of influenza and pneumonia in the last week of July over the past five years – 50 per cent more than died this year.

    That is almost certainly a reflection of how effective social distancing has been in preventing flu deaths.

    And then the article you quoted from continues:
    But it does also show that social distancing, lockdown and so on cannot be wholly responsible for the sharp fall in deaths from Covid-19 since April. Given that flu is spread in much the same way as Covid-19, why haven’t flu deaths fallen as sharply as Covid-19 deaths in reaction to lockdown measures? It rather suggests that something else has contributed to the fall in deaths from Covid-19. Herd immunity? A decline in the virulence of the virus? It does rather pose the question: why are we still placing serious restrictions on the economy and on personal freedom when Covid deaths are so much lower than deaths from the ordinary flu?


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    #93
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    So you accept your previous claim was wrong (again)

    "flu death numbers are in line with the five-year average"

    I guess that's fairly indisputable.

    At least you can take comfort in having a journalist asking a question.
    why are we still placing serious restrictions on the economy and on personal freedom when Covid deaths are so much lower than deaths from the ordinary flu?

    Covid deaths are so much lower as a result of the restrictions (as are flu deaths)


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    #94
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,867 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    sabat wrote: »
    Othering and belittling through the use of the word "brigade." Well done.

    That other poster clearly said you need a test to see if you have cancer in order to make a point about people with zero symptoms testing positive for covid.
    Quite simply, many people who test positive for covid would never have known otherwise, because there's nothing wrong with them. This has been going on since the cruise ships back at the start.
    People with cancer will eventually know because it is highly symptomatic-the most severe of which is death.

    In this case it is more appropriate to think of coronavirus as acting like a carcinogenic product than cancer itself.

    We ban carcinogenic products, and smoking in public places, so that other people's behaviour has less chance of triggering cancer in a bystander. We had no test to know which smokers or passive smokers would or would not go on to develop the disease, or which particular people would be triggered by particular carcinogenic products.

    Coronavirus is an infectious disease. You can have it and pass it on without knowing it.
    Which is why masks, distancing, track and trace, isolation are all important.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #95
    moonage
    Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭moonage


    Graham wrote: »
    So you accept your previous claim was wrong (again)

    "flu death numbers are in line with the five-year average"


    Flu death numbers are in line with the five-year average as demonstrated by the light blue/dashed blue lines in the graph I posted earlier:

    flu-deaths-greater-than-covid-deaths-ons-graph-aug-28th.jpg


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    #96
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    moonage wrote: »
    Flu death numbers are in line with the five-year average as demonstrated by the light blue/dashed blue lines in the graph I posted earlier

    Read the numbers behind the pretty graph.

    Up-to week 35 (28th Aug) for England and Wales

    The number of Influenza and pneumonia mentions are 14,976 lower than the 5 year average.

    The only week where the 2020 figures were higher than the 5 year average was week 14.


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    #97
    moonage
    Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭moonage


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Coronavirus is an infectious disease. You can have it and pass it on without knowing it.
    Which is why masks, distancing, track and trace, isolation are all important.

    For the general population masks, distancing, track and trace, isolation are not important at all, now that we are at the tail-end of the epidemic and hardly anyone is getting sick.

    Social distancing and isolation may have been appropriate at the start to slow the spread so that the health service wouldn't be overwhelmed.

    Now it's all about test, test, test to try to find "cases". Cases of an infectious disease used to mean people with symptoms, often severe enough to need hospitalisation. Now Covid "cases" are mostly asymptomatic and so are not cases at all.


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    #98
    Seanergy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭Seanergy


    Pitch n Putt wrote: »
    Unfortunately most died with covid 19 and even more tragically a lot of these poor people who lost their lives were caused by the panic to empty our hospitals resulting in a catastrophic disaster of infecting many nursing homes.

    The transfer of covid-19 positive patients from hospitals to nursing homes was only part responsible for the catastrophic disaster that happened. The other part that is less spoken of is that pre April 22nd the HSE reserved their limited mask supplies for Doctors and a few select others for Hospital settings only leaving all the HCW's in nursing homes without masks.

    There was a significant correlation between the proportion of staff with symptomatic covid-19 and resident numbers with confirmed/suspected covid-19.
    Asymptomatic carriage rates and case-fatality of SARS-CoV-2 infection in residents and staff in Irish nursing homes

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.11.20128199v1


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    #99
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,867 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    moonage wrote: »
    Now it's all about test, test, test to try to find "cases". Cases of an infectious disease used to mean people with symptoms, often severe enough to need hospitalisation. Now Covid "cases" are mostly asymptomatic and so are not cases at all.

    1. They are not mostly asymptomatic.
    2. Asymptomatic, presymptomatic and those with mild symptoms can still be contagious.

    We are intercepting them with the testing and limiting them with masks, distancing ... before they infect more people because the more people are infected the more people with hospitalisation level symptoms there will be.

    Zero evidence we are at the tail end of an epidemic.

    There can be carriers of infectious diseases who themselves dont experience symptoms of it. Google Typhoid Mary. This is not a new concept.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #100
    moonage
    Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭moonage


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    1. They are not mostly asymptomatic.

    Any idea of the percentage of those tested that are asymptomatic? And how many of those test positive?
    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Zero evidence we are at the tail end of an epidemic.

    The fact that hospitalisation/death rates have been falling steadily since April would be an indication.


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    #101
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    moonage wrote: »
    The fact that hospitalisation/death rates have been falling steadily since April would be an indication.

    Anything to do with the population being isolated for a large amount of time you think?


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    #102
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,867 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    moonage wrote: »
    Any idea of the percentage of those tested that are asymptomatic? And how many of those test positive?

    The fact that hospitalisation/death rates have been falling steadily since April would be an indication.

    In the meat plants it was 50 percent but that is not typical of our testing as that was mass testing.

    Hospitalisations up in Spain and France.
    We could be on same trajectory.
    Aside from more younger ppl in the positive cases...
    It could be vitamin D levels are up, or masks and distancing mean less viral load mean less severe infection.
    Also there are better treatments such as steroids and use of ventilation.
    Too soon to know if virus has weakened and we are out of the woods.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #103
    moonage
    Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭moonage


    Graham wrote: »
    Anything to do with the population being isolated for a large amount of time you think?

    Not much. It has followed the typical curve of epidemics.


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    #104
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    moonage wrote: »
    Not much. It has followed the typical curve of epidemics.

    Interesting.

    You reckon the virus was moving around on its own while we were all at home or do you have some other theory?


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    #105
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,867 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    moonage wrote: »
    Not much. It has followed the typical curve of epidemics.

    The Asian flu had two waves and was brought under control with a vaccine.
    The second wave had higher death toll.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #106
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Graham wrote:
    Premature death caused by Covid, is still death caused by Covid however much you pretend otherwise.


    Agreed
    My father in law was 89 and had underline heart condition for 25 years. His heart wouldn't have given out if he didn't have Covid-19. He might have died weeks or years later of natural cause but for catching Covid-19.

    His death was most definitely caused by Covid-19.


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    #107
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Graham wrote: »
    That's like claiming someone shot in the head may have died of a brain haemorrhage rather than gunshot.

    Keep trying..

    It’s more like claiming someone shot in the head definetly died of Covid.


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    #108
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    It’s more like claiming someone shot in the head definetly died of Covid.

    A COVID-19 death is defined for surveillance purposes as a death resulting from a clinically compatible illness in a probable or confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID-19 disease (e.g. trauma).
    Source: WHO

    There's also the 'excess deaths' measurement.

    Either don't appear compatible with the "they'd have died anyway" bo****ks


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    #109
    Polar101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,751 ✭✭✭Polar101


    I'm just going to mention the thing that hasn't been mentioned for a few pages.

    Masks. Seems to be close to 100% people wearing masks on public transport from what I've seen these days (more on trains, a bit less on buses).


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    #110
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Polar101 wrote: »
    Masks. Seems to be close to 100% people wearing masks on public transport from what I've seen these days (more on trains, a bit less on buses).

    My observations would be similar over the last week of two Polar101.

    People without masks are becoming fewer and further between.


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    #111
    Sierra 117
    Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭Sierra 117


    Polar101 wrote: »
    I'm just going to mention the thing that hasn't been mentioned for a few pages.

    Masks. Seems to be close to 100% people wearing masks on public transport from what I've seen these days (more on trains, a bit less on buses).


    Yep, I've noticed the same thing.


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    #112
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    I have seen a handful of dopes with their masks tucked neatly under their noses, for some reason it's typically women who appear to be in their 40s/50s. Just a bizarre observation.


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    #113
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    I had to get the bus today and pop into a few shops. Mask on, mask off, mask on, mask off. I am giving them until Halloween before I stop complying. They are not masking me for winter flu season.


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    #114
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    You poor thing, that's at least 4 additional arm movements.

    Thank you for your service.


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    #115
    Away With The Fairies
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭Away With The Fairies


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    I had to get the bus today and pop into a few shops. Mask on, mask off, mask on, mask off. I am giving them until Halloween before I stop complying. They are not masking me for winter flu season.

    You can also keep the mask on if you're going in and out of shops. You should try it, it doesn't hurt.


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    #116
    bush
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,878 ✭✭✭bush


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    I had to get the bus today and pop into a few shops. Mask on, mask off, mask on, mask off. I am giving them until Halloween before I stop complying. They are not masking me for winter flu season.

    I just leave the mask on if I'm going to a few places, even driving the car on my own I wear the mask sometimes. I've become that person.


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    #117
    John O.Groats
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 837 ✭✭✭John O.Groats


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    I had to get the bus today and pop into a few shops. Mask on, mask off, mask on, mask off. I am giving them until Halloween before I stop complying. They are not masking me for winter flu season.

    Halloween of what year? I guarantee you will be wearing a mask throughout all of Autumn/Winter 2020/21.


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    #118
    John O.Groats
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 837 ✭✭✭John O.Groats


    Graham wrote: »
    You poor thing, that's at least 4 additional arm movements.

    Thank you for your service.

    Imagine if this poster was being asked to do something that was actually a real inconvenience. The mind boggles.


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    #119
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Pitch n Putt wrote: »
    This is what’s completely wrong with masks and the categorising of somebody who doesn’t wear a mask as some sort of lower human

    Mask should be a choice and not a means to judge people.

    If you want to wear a mask wear it but don’t judge others.

    The pro mask high and mighty brigade will be along to proclaim the end of society if you don’t wear a mask or face covering and that your selfish and yada yada yada etc.

    If it was up to me you'd all be tarred and feathered.


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    #120
    moonage
    Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭moonage


    John O.Groats wrote: »
    Halloween of what year? I guarantee you will be wearing a mask throughout all of Autumn/Winter 2020/21.

    If hospitalisation and death rates remain low more and more people won't put up with mask wearing for very long.

    And rightly so.


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    #121
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Hello 2D Person Below wrote: »
    If it was up to me you'd all be tarred and feathered.

    :). Its worse than a Liverpool United match thread in here and thats saying something. Similar intellect too.


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