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How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

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    #3512
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,925 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    markodaly wrote: »
    All I did was ask for someone to prove their allegation. Simple really.
    They did not.
    You have not.
    No one has....

    Therefore, its a false allegation designed to muddy the waters.
    If you don't like lies being called, then perhaps stop backing lies and making up $hite.

    "All I did..."

    Yes Mark.

    Please tell us what sort of evidence would be acceptable to you? It'll save everyone the time and energy required to sate your needs.


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    #3513
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    markodaly wrote: »
    Again, show me the proof of your claim. If it's in the report, quite the paragraph, please.

    Otherwise, stop lying and promoting Republican conspiracy theories.


    Just read it yourself, rather than just scanning it and come back to me then with why you think the Police did all they could to prevent the Omagh bombing or that in the Bermingham bomb, the police were competent in how they dealt with the information they had and the procedures as to how to deal with them.


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    #3514
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    downcow wrote: »
    Running informants is a little more complex than you suggest.
    I think your informants would have fairly quickly be found with a plastic bag over their heads in south Armagh.


    According to you, the IRA was riddled with informers. How come they all didn't end up with plastic bags over their heads?

    They had good intelligence for the Omagh bombing and they just didn't pass it on.


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    #3515
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    markodaly wrote: »
    All I did was ask for someone to prove their allegation. Simple really.
    They did not.
    You have not.
    No one has....

    Therefore, its a false allegation designed to muddy the waters.
    If you don't like lies being called, then perhaps stop backing lies and making up $hite.
    Thats exactly what the British security forces / British Gov. did all the time - muddy the waters.


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    #3516
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,060 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    "All I did..."

    Yes Mark.

    Please tell us what sort of evidence would be acceptable to you? It'll save everyone the time and energy required to sate your needs.

    What sort of evidence? Well, any actual independently verifiable evidence really.
    Not some, 'Some man told me in the pub' antidote.


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    #3517
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,060 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    jm08 wrote: »
    Just read it yourself, rather than just scanning it and come back to me then with why you think the Police did all they could to prevent the Omagh bombing or that in the Bermingham bomb, the police were competent in how they dealt with the information they had and the procedures as to how to deal with them.

    Again, point me to the correct paragraph or quote or page number that will even remotely prove what you alleged.

    If you cannot, or will not, then it's likely the reason is, there is no proof in that document.

    Therefore, stop telling bare face lies.


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    #3518
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,925 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    markodaly wrote: »
    What sort of evidence? Well, any actual independently verifiable evidence really.
    Not some, 'Some man told me in the pub' antidote.

    I don't think there is an antidote for what you're spewing.

    So something from CAIN perhaps? Do you know what CAIN is?


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    #3519
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,925 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    markodaly wrote: »
    Again, point me to the correct paragraph or quote or page number that will even remotely prove what you alleged.

    If you cannot, or will not, then it's likely the reason is, there is no proof in that document.

    Therefore, stop telling bare face lies.

    How do you know they're lies of you can't even be bothered to read what's proffered?

    Big accusation there tbh.


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    #3520
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,060 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    I don't think there is an antidote for what you're spewing.

    So something from CAIN perhaps? Do you know what CAIN is?

    They have this report on their website.
    https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/police/ombudsman/po121201omagh1.pdf

    From the very first page.
    The persons responsible for the Omagh bombing are the terrorists who
    planned and executed the atrocity. Nothing contained in this report should
    detract from that clear and unequivocal fact


    Now, if you have something else to offer?


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    #3521
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,900 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Can't be too far off now.


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    #3522
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    markodaly wrote: »
    They have this report on their website.
    https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/police/ombudsman/po121201omagh1.pdf

    From the very first page.

    Now, if you have something else to offer?


    Thats beside the point of the report. They are just clarifying that.



    Now have you read up as to how the RUC messed up disasterously for the victims of the Omagh bombing?


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    #3523
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    You are missing the point completely McGowan overcompensates for being English and tries to be more Irish and Republican. A classic case of a 2nd Generation 'Irish' self hating English person - who tries to be more Irish than the Irish = over compensation.
    In fact he said he would have joined the IRA only for music.

    For the record. In all honesty I don't view any of those lads you mentioned as really Irish. Yeah they maybe second generation Irish, but are/were plastic paddies when all is said and done. It comes back to my point of Irish people having way more in common with Britain than they like to admit. Yet people claim 'Brits out' to show how Irish they are. In other words being Irish = Brits out - to them.

    Shane was born in Kent while his Irish parents were on holidays, he was reared in Tipperary until the age of 6 and spent every summer of his childhood in said home, McGowan is as Irish as Guinness. Their is not a single drop of English blood in either the McGowan or Lynch families.


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    #3524
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,355 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    jm08 wrote: »
    According to you, the IRA was riddled with informers. How come they all didn't end up with plastic bags over their heads?

    They had good intelligence for the Omagh bombing and they just didn't pass it on.

    You are now answering your own question.
    The reason they did not all end up with plastic bags over their heads is because the police did not act on all their information, thus giving them away.
    The other reason of course is that there were very high level informers like Dennis Donaldson whose job it was to identify other informers - and of course he set up the non-informing members for assassination as informers


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    #3525
    dd973
    Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭dd973


    Why would there be an IRA of any form post reunification? We all know that elements involved in physical force Republicanism overlap with organised crime however I think this is an overlooked aspect when the issue is examined.


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    #3526
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    jm08 wrote: »
    I don't where you got that idea that the police should not have operated informants. Since they had informants they should have listened to them and acted on the information they were given.


    This didn't happen in either Bermingham or Omagh.
    Oh yeah, Birmingham was all the polices fault. The Provo scum couldn't even find a working telephone to ring in the warning in time. O Connell and O Bradaigh then tried to wash their hands of it


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    #3527
    Tokyo
    Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tokyo


    Mod: @Edgware - wind it in. The last few posts in this and other threads have been unnecessarily aggressive.


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    #3528
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,355 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    This thread was peppered with republicans claiming sf and O’Neill done nothing wrong at the storey funeral.
    Seems that O’Neill has finally done a u turn and accepted she and they were wrong, reckless and now ‘regret’ their behaviour.
    It’s the nearest you will ever get to an apology from the arrogant shinners (similar type of words to how they regret murdering people). A disgrace that it has take months to arrive

    I wonder will the posters on here, who were claiming shinner innocence on this, will join with her u turn?
    I think I know the answer to my own question.


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    #3529
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,436 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    downcow wrote: »
    This thread was peppered with republicans claiming sf and O’Neill done nothing wrong at the storey funeral.
    Seems that O’Neill has finally done a u turn and accepted she and they were wrong, reckless and now ‘regret’ their behaviour.
    It’s the nearest you will ever get to an apology from the arrogant shinners (similar type of words to how they regret murdering people). A disgrace that it has take months to arrive

    I wonder will the posters on here, who were claiming shinner innocence on this, will join with her u turn?
    I think I know the answer to my own question.

    Care to point out anyone saying SF and O'Neill did nothing wrong, Downcow? You really do have an odd relationship with the truth. The vast majority of posters all stated that SF were wrong. The closest to your suggestion was a few people saying it was no different to other politicians attending another funeral.

    Why do you always have to go with blatant misrepresentation and exaggeration instead of having reasonable conversation?


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    #3530
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,241 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    downcow wrote: »
    This thread was peppered with republicans claiming sf and O’Neill done nothing wrong at the storey funeral.
    Seems that O’Neill has finally done a u turn and accepted she and they were wrong, reckless and now ‘regret’ their behaviour.
    It’s the nearest you will ever get to an apology from the arrogant shinners (similar type of words to how they regret murdering people). A disgrace that it has take months to arrive

    I wonder will the posters on here, who were claiming shinner innocence on this, will join with her u turn?
    I think I know the answer to my own question.

    Any links to her apology, trying to find it.


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    #3531
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,355 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    Care to point out anyone saying SF and O'Neill did nothing wrong, Downcow? You really do have an odd relationship with the truth. The vast majority of posters all stated that SF were wrong. The closest to your suggestion was a few people saying it was no different to other politicians attending another funeral.

    Why do you always have to go with blatant misrepresentation and exaggeration instead of having reasonable conversation?

    I can’t search very well while on the phone but I will certainly get you plenty of posts repeating and supporting O’Neills former position.
    You might then even apologise to me for your claim

    Do you think she , even at this late date, should have had the courage to offer a full apology?
    Do you believe she initially misrepresented her responsibility for what went on at the funeral?
    Do you believe the behaviour of the sf leadership at the funeral of a murderer was simply disgraceful?

    Fairly simple yes/no questions


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    #3532
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,355 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Any links to her apology, trying to find it.

    I wouldn’t call it an apology. It is a slippery admission of wrongdoing and regret. I think she made it to RTÉ.

    Edit - just found it https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/1164300/


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    #3533
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,436 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    downcow wrote: »
    I can’t search very well while on the phone but I will certainly get you plenty of posts repeating and supporting O’Neills former position.
    You might then even apologise to me for your claim

    Do you think she , even at this late date, should have had the courage to offer a full apology?
    Do you believe she initially misrepresented her responsibility for what went on at the funeral?
    Do you believe the behaviour of the sf leadership at the funeral of a murderer was simply disgraceful?

    Fairly simple yes/no questions

    Stop trying to shift the goalposts, Downcow. I'm asking you for proof that the thread was full of, "Republicans claiming sf and O’Neill done (sic) nothing wrong at the storey funeral", which wasn't even Michelle O'Neill's position, let alone the position of the vast majority of Republicans on here.

    To your questions

    1) Not really. I think it has mostly blown over, and I'm not appeased much by political apologies in general. The PR-type half-apology is better than I expected, and certainly more than we'll ever see from Arlene on RHI or Paisley Jr on his questionable holiday funding. Apart from a small handful of exceptions, political apologies are generally insincere, pure PR exercises, I'd much rather they didn't do the things they're apologising for.

    2) Yes.

    3) Disgraceful, no. Regrettable, yes. I think it was a poor decision, the magnitude of which is being exploited for political gain. It was wrong, but I wouldn't use the term disgraceful to describe mourners at a funeral, no.


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    #3534
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,241 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    downcow wrote: »
    I wouldn’t call it an apology. It is a slippery admission of wrongdoing and regret. I think she made it to RTÉ.

    Edit - just found it https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/1164300/

    To be fair their attitude to the Storey funeral and thinking they "did no wrong" didn't sit well with most of the public, unless you were a hardened SF'er.

    They often tried to claim they had 50 invited guests at the funeral and this was within guidelines, but they should have known that at the same time others were burying family members with reduced numbers, they were just playing with semantics.

    I respect politicians who can see when they did wrong and admit it, but their doggedness in claiming all was ok with that funeral didn't sit well.


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    #3535
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,355 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    Stop trying to shift the goalposts, Downcow. I'm asking you for proof that the thread was full of, "Republicans claiming sf and O’Neill done (sic) nothing wrong at the storey funeral", which wasn't even Michelle O'Neill's position, let alone the position of the vast majority of Republicans on here.

    .

    Just first quick google demonstrates her original position
    ‘I stand over that my actions were within the regulations and the public health guidance’
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/michelle-o-neill-rejects-claim-she-breached-covid-19-rules-at-bobby-storey-funeral-1.4293455%3fmode=amp


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    #3536
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,355 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    Stop trying to shift the goalposts, Downcow. I'm asking you for proof that the thread was full of, "Republicans claiming sf and O’Neill done (sic) nothing wrong at the storey funeral", which wasn't even Michelle O'Neill's position, let alone the position of the vast majority of Republicans on here.

    To your questions

    1) Not really. I think it has mostly blown over, and I'm not appeased much by political apologies in general. The PR-type half-apology is better than I expected

    Michelle mustn’t agree with you. She would have taken leave of her senses is she broke a story about her regret at her own behaviour, if she thought it had ‘blown over’


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    #3537
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,925 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    He obviously got no traction with his Irish language nonsense so now we're onto something minor from the past that's long blown over. Maddening. Can you imagine what the St Andrew's negotiations were like?


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    #3538
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,499 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    He obviously got no traction with his Irish language nonsense so now we're onto something minor from the past that's long blown over. Maddening. Can you imagine what the St Andrew's negotiations were like?

    Can't back up his claim that the thread was 'peppered with republicans saying SF had done nothing wrong' either.


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    #3539
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,925 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Can't back up his claim that the thread was 'peppered with republicans saying SF had done nothing wrong' either.
    Of course not. Sure he's ignored every question put to him in the other thread. I have asked umpteen times about an accusation he made of me, even linking back to the original post where he made his claim and to no avail. Maybe he didn't see it?


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    #3540
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,135 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    dd973 wrote: »
    Why would there be an IRA of any form post reunification? We all know that elements involved in physical force Republicanism overlap with organised crime however I think this is an overlooked aspect when the issue is examined.

    Sadly I suspect yes there would be, so as to make sure that any and all Unionist links with Britain were closed down permanently. The whole reason for the IRA in all its guises is to stamp out Britishness and all links with our neighbouring island, (specifically London & Westminster).

    The IRA would be happy with Unionists in a 32 county Republic, but only if they've severerd their ties with Britain permanently, otherwise the IRA (in some form) will go on for ever . . . . .

    That's my reading of it anyway.


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    #3541
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,436 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    Sadly I suspect yes there would be, so as to make sure that any and all Unionist links with Britain were closed down permanently. The whole reason for the IRA in all its guises is to stamp out Britishness and all links with our neighbouring island, (specifically London & Westminster).

    The IRA would be happy with Unionists in a 32 county Republic, but only if they've severerd their ties with Britain permanently, otherwise the IRA (in some form) will go on for ever . . . . .

    That's my reading of it anyway.

    What a bizarre take on things. I'm going to guess this is all, 'gut feeling' rather than anything even resembling evidenced?


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