How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Just first quick google demonstrates her original position
‘I stand over that my actions were within the regulations and the public health guidance’
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/michelle-o-neill-rejects-claim-she-breached-covid-19-rules-at-bobby-storey-funeral-1.4293455%3fmode=amp

Within the same article,

'Ms O’Neill did accept that what was happening in a photograph taken after the funeral and shared on social media – of herself and two men, one with his arm round her shoulder – “shouldn’t have happened”.'

So even from Michelle O'Neill's perspective, your, 'did nothing wrong' assertion would be incorrect.

Now, back to the core....some evidence that the thread was peppered with Republicans saying SF did nothing wrong. Not Republicans stating that it was exaggerated, not Republicans comparing it to other events, just some stating that they did NOTHING wrong. Since the thread was peppered with it, this evidence should be easily located.

larva

Fionn1952 wrote: »

What a bizarre take on things. I'm going to guess this is all, 'gut feeling' rather than anything even resembling evidenced?

He has a point, a reunified Ireland isnt going to remove people who clearly identify themselves as British, its plausible that Unionist sectarianism will escalate if there is reunification, to what extent is anyones guess. The RA wont disappear either because its achieved a 32 county republic, if anything they will see this a victory thats finally made Catholics first class citizens and Protestants second class and they will no doubt try to build on this. The only way to get a proper equilibrium in the North is for it to become its own Country, free of both Dublin and London, this of course would require much more stable and proper political leadership which the North has never experienced in its past as both sides simply cannot move on from their historical mindsets.

BonnieSituation

larva wrote: »

He has a point, a reunified Ireland isnt going to remove people who clearly identify themselves as British, its plausible that Unionist sectarianism will escalate if there is reunification, to what extent is anyones guess. The RA wont disappear either because its achieved a 32 county republic, if anything they will see this a victory thats finally made Catholics first class citizens and Protestants second class and they will no doubt try to build on this.

Eh, the only people peddling this nonsense are partitionists and unionists and misinformed souls like yourself and Hamsterchops.

Why you think this would come to pass I don't know.

The only way to get a proper equilibrium in the North is for it to become its own Country, free of both Dublin and London, this of course would require much more stable and proper political leadership which the North has never experienced in its past as both sides simply cannot move on from their historical mindsets.

What?

You propose a plan that literally has zero support as a solution to the current status. A current status mind, that is governed by an agreement between Ireland and the UK?

Jesus. How do you people come up with your "ideas" and think they're worthy of discussion?

Fionn1952

larva wrote: »

He has a point, a reunified Ireland isnt going to remove people who clearly identify themselves as British, its plausible that Unionist sectarianism will escalate if there is reunification, to what extent is anyones guess. The RA wont disappear either because its achieved a 32 county republic, if anything they will see this a victory thats finally made Catholics first class citizens and Protestants second class and they will no doubt try to build on this. The only way to get a proper equilibrium in the North is for it to become its own Country, free of both Dublin and London, this of course would require much more stable and proper political leadership which the North has never experienced in its past as both sides simply cannot move on from their historical mindsets.

Why does it always come back to this suggestion.....that has absolutely no cross community support (it isn't a new idea, it peaked barely squeaking into double figures), and is primarily supported by those so hardline Loyalist they would make the DUP look half a step away from waving tricolours around.

I have never seen a proposal for unification that involved setting up Unionists as second class citizens.

Also stating NI cannot move on.....I'd suggest having a little look into what NI was like in 1975 versus now. There has been tremendous progress. Distrust remains in some communities, small groups remain outright hostile, but it's a different world altogether to that of the 70s. Progress takes time, in a post-conflict environment, it would be ludicrous to expect otherwise.

Junkyard Tom

larva wrote: »

He has a point, a reunified Ireland isnt going to remove people who clearly identify themselves as British, its plausible that Unionist sectarianism will escalate if there is reunification, to what extent is anyones guess. The RA wont disappear either because its achieved a 32 county republic, if anything they will see this a victory thats finally made Catholics first class citizens and Protestants second class and they will no doubt try to build on this. The only way to get a proper equilibrium in the North is for it to become its own Country, free of both Dublin and London, this of course would require much more stable and proper political leadership which the North has never experienced in its past as both sides simply cannot move on from their historical mindsets.

This is nuts, all of it.

Post-unification and para-militarism is finished. Republicans will have no British state to attack and the excuse of preserving British rule, Unionists used to murder innocent Catholics, evaporates too.

Unification provides an opportunity to secularise the schools and build an 21st Century universal healthcare system.

markodaly

jm08 wrote: »

Thats beside the point of the report. They are just clarifying that.

By clarifying you mean, proving your allegation as false?

No evidence of said allegation means its not true sadly. That is how it works.

larva

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Eh, the only people peddling this nonsense are partitionists and unionists and misinformed souls like yourself and Hamsterchops.

Why you think this would come to pass I don't know.

What?

You propose a plan that literally has zero support as a solution to the current status. A current status mind, that is governed by an agreement between Ireland and the UK?

Jesus. How do you people come up with your "ideas" and think they're worthy of discussion?

Not sure what a Hamsterchops is but you seem to get a kick out of name calling people so good luck with that. By default, hard line unionist, those willing to use force as a means to protect their unity with Britain will surely make their presence known if a united Ireland is ever really on the cards. Northern Ireland as a state on its own is the only middle ground that could appease both parties, even if there isnt much support for that idea.

larva

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

This is nuts, all of it.

Post-unification and para-militarism is finished. Republicans will have no British state to attack and the excuse of preserving British rule, Unionists used to murder innocent Catholics, evaporates too.

Unification provides an opportunity to secularise the schools and build an 21st Century universal healthcare system.

Most Northern Irish people see our health service as crap and too expensive compared to the NHS, nuts aint it, oh and yes Unification will see use as smiley happy people.

jm08

larva wrote: »

Not sure what a Hamsterchops is but you seem to get a kick out of name calling people so good luck with that. By default, hard line unionist, those willing to use force as a means to protect their unity with Britain will surely make their presence known if a united Ireland is ever really on the cards. Northern Ireland as a state on its own is the only middle ground that could appease both parties, even if there isnt much support for that idea.

Hamsterchops is a poster (see some of his/her posts above).

Spleodar

There's one thing they forget in the analysis of the healthcare systems. If a united Ireland were to happen, I would assume the structures of the Northern Irish NHS would just continue as they are. It would be ludicrous and frankly probably impossible to implement the HSE model in the North as the two systems have completely different histories.

The Republic of Ireland spends significantly more per capita on health than the Northern Irish NHS does. It just gets far worse bang for buck due to historical and structural issues.

So, if anything, the Northern Irish system, kept as it is, would potentially end up with access to far better funding and the gap between the services from the two systems would probably drive heavy reform of the HSE systems anyway.

If we could end up with something that was more like best of both, across a range of public services and approaches to public administration, we actually might end up with superior services and better economic performance in both jurisdictions across a range of areas.

Northern Ireland might also perform better economically with the Republic's tailored to Ireland models of economic development. The focus of the UK government tends to be on London and the Southeast of England, with Northern Ireland being the periphery of the periphery. It certainly hasn't featured strongly in UK economic development plans, other than as an after thought. On the other side of it, the Republic could learn a lot from systems like the NHS.

Also, it might realistically pave the way for a federal Ireland and possibly with more than just two states. I could see a lot of sense in having the four provinces as actual self-administrating regions and it would make a lot more sense if a new Ulster region stuck to the historical entities and rolled in Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan.

If you did move to a united Ireland, it's certainly not going to happen on the basis of centralising power in Dublin, particularly after a century of completely different administration in Northern Ireland, and a federal setup would be extremely good for Munster and Connacht too.

We haven't really thought out this at all. It's not just going to be a case of Northern Ireland slotting in as an extra few counties and a huge downgrade in autonomy. That would be totally unacceptable to people who live there no matter what kind of political views they have and I think that's something we need to really look at if we ever intend to move towards a reunited Ireland.

We are a totally overcentralised state (most centralised in the OECD) as it is and it could be a huge opportunity to restructure the way the state functions in a very positive way for the whole island, not just as a solution to a century of partition.

I think many of us, on all sides of the argument, both north and south, have a very over simplistic view of what would actually be involved in building a shared future on the island as united Ireland. It can't really be just a case of throwing the 6 counties with the 26 without radical changes to a whole lot of structures of state.

jm08

larva wrote: »

Most Northern Irish people see our health service as crap and too expensive compared to the NHS, nuts aint it, oh and yes Unification will see use as smiley happy people.

Are you talking about the same health service in Northern Ireland which had to borrow Ambulance Crews from the HSE not too long ago or where they have to wait a couple of weeks to get an appointment to visit a GP? The Tories have destroyed the NHS in the last 10 years or so through lack of funding.

Spleodar

jm08 wrote: »

Are you talking about the same health service in Northern Ireland which had to borrow Ambulance Crews from the HSE not too long ago or where they have to wait a couple of weeks to get an appointment to visit a GP? The Tories have destroyed the NHS in the last 10 years or so through lack of funding.

The NHS system at least has an ambition to provide free-at-point-of-use, open access healthcare. The HSE is a hybrid mess of multiple tiers and we all know that.

The northern system has been damaged and hollowed out by a decade of Tories and other problems.

That's why I think you'd need to take best of both worlds. The levels of funding available in the Republic used in the Northern NHS model would likely result in world class health services.

On healthcare, and a whole load of other areas, Ireland (both jurisdictions) should be setting our bar a lot higher and aiming towards world leading public health services. We can afford it. We just haven't structured things correctly to achieve it and we've a legacy of unambitious services and fire fighting with bonkers structures, especially in the republic.

With a bit of ambition, the health service could be excellent and with the same kind of ambition and thinking outside the box of whatever the UK's been up to, the North's economy could be brought up to speed too. This notion that Northern Ireland would be a long term drag on the economy or always needs subvention is probably nonsense. It just needs more appropriate policies and it would be part of the same IDA / EI type model of investment and could well see a boom.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

He obviously got no traction with his Irish language nonsense so now we're onto something minor from the past that's long blown over. Maddening. Can you imagine what the St Andrew's negotiations were like?

It was your great leader raised this issue today. Not me

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

He obviously got no traction with his Irish language nonsense

Bonnie. I was just listening to a discussion the other day on radio about how few young people can speak any degree of Irish.
It got me thinking to how a poster here the other day said Irish language was part of their identity. I was thinking how many young teenage unionists get involved in marching bands. They vote with their feet, with no funding to attract them, and join their local band. They dedicate themselves to learning the flute, bagpipes, accordion, drumming etc. They commit up to 5-6 nights a week for a substantial part of the year. They learn discipline and learn about there history and culture. All voluntary, and dare their parents try to prevent them.
If I was a nationalist I would be embarrassed to say Irish language was my identity given the serious lack of interest from young people even with £millions threw at it.
It explains the desire to plaster Irish signs everywhere. Then everyone, old and young, could say ‘look that’s our identity’ but of course they would have to tell you that in English.
If that’s your identity then it’s in big trouble if you have to rely on the council paying for a few signs for you.
Let the people decide with their feet what their identity is and stop propping up minority interests with government money

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Are you talking about the same health service in Northern Ireland which had to borrow Ambulance Crews from the HSE not too long ago or where they have to wait a couple of weeks to get an appointment to visit a GP? The Tories have destroyed the NHS in the last 10 years or so through lack of funding.

I have never heard of anyone who has waited two weeks for a doc appointment. I have always got one same day or next day. And it’s free in all circumstances. And the prescription is free in all circumstances. B
Stick to reality

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie. I was just listening to a discussion the other day on radio about how few young people can speak any degree of Irish.
It got me thinking to how a poster here the other day said Irish language was part of their identity. I was thinking how many young teenage unionists get involved in marching bands. They vote with their feet, with no funding to attract them, and join their local band. They dedicate themselves to learning the flute, bagpipes, accordion, drumming etc. They commit up to 5-6 nights a week for a substantial part of the year. They learn discipline and learn about there history and culture. All voluntary, and dare their parents try to prevent them.
If I was a nationalist I would be embarrassed to say Irish language was my identity given the serious lack of interest from young people even with £millions threw at it.
It explains the desire to plaster Irish signs everywhere. Then everyone, old and young, could say ‘look that’s are identity’ but of course they would have to tell you that in English.
If that’s your identity then it’s in big trouble if you have to rely on the council paying for a few signs for you.
Let the people decide with their feet what their identity is and stop propping up minority interests with government money

Still no idea what culture and identity actually is.

The Irish language is part of your identity downcow even though you reject it.

Orangism is a part of my Irish identity too by virtue of the fact that it happens in Ireland as are all those planter castles, as is the heritage left behind by the British etc etc.

RobMc59

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie. I was just listening to a discussion the other day on radio about how few young people can speak any degree of Irish.
It got me thinking to how a poster here the other day said Irish language was part of their identity. I was thinking how many young teenage unionists get involved in marching bands. They vote with their feet, with no funding to attract them, and join their local band. They dedicate themselves to learning the flute, bagpipes, accordion, drumming etc. They commit up to 5-6 nights a week for a substantial part of the year. They learn discipline and learn about there history and culture. All voluntary, and dare their parents try to prevent them.
If I was a nationalist I would be embarrassed to say Irish language was my identity given the serious lack of interest from young people even with £millions threw at it.
It explains the desire to plaster Irish signs everywhere. Then everyone, old and young, could say ‘look that’s our identity’ but of course they would have to tell you that in English.
If that’s your identity then it’s in big trouble if you have to rely on the council paying for a few signs for you.
Let the people decide with their feet what their identity is and stop propping up minority interests with government money

I agree.I`d also like to know out of interest how many posters who constantly bang on about Irish language and signage can actually speak it?

Fionn1952

Any chance of all that evidence you have of posters claiming SF did nothing wrong, Downcow? Just in case you forgot as you rushed to change the subject there...

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Still no idea what culture and identity actually is.

The Irish language is part of your identity downcow even though you reject it.

Orangism is a part of my Irish identity too by virtue of the fact that it happens in Ireland as are all those planter castles, as is the heritage left behind by the British etc etc.

Yes. That was exactly the other thought I had. Great minds think alike.
Although surely it has to be something some of us treasure enough to be part of our identity?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Yes. That was exactly the other thought I had. Great minds think alike.
Although surely it has to be something some of us treasure enough to be part of our identity?

No. There are many things in my culture that Idetest or don't like, but they are still a part of my heritage and my identity. Ditto the Irish language for unionists. It seems to consume you and get a reaction from you, more than most.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Any chance of all that evidence you have of posters claiming SF did nothing wrong, Downcow? Just in case you forgot as you rushed to change the subject there...

I am on my phone in my bed and don’t know how to search on it. I’ll try tomorrow.
You had two issues
1) Michelle did not claim funeral was fine
2) posters on here did not say she and sf done no wrong
Can I assume you are happy I have disproved 1 with evidence and that you are awaiting me to disprove 2 ?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No. There are many things in my culture that Idetest or don't like, but they are still a part of my heritage and my identity. Ditto the Irish language for unionists. It seems to consume you and get a reaction from you, more than most.

So you do have me confused about what identity is then.
Sounds like it is just everything in your community’s past. - some pretty grime stuff there that I would not refer to as my identity

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I have never heard of anyone who has waited two weeks for a doc appointment. I have always got one same day or next day. And it’s free in all circumstances. And the prescription is free in all circumstances. B
Stick to reality

There was a poster here from NI living in the south who has a brother who has the same health issue still living in NI compared the two health systems where he said he could get a GP appointment immediately, but in NI, his brother had to wait two weeks. I can't remember the name of the poster, but thats what I was going on. And then this of course.

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/health/every-hospital-waiting-list-target-18322937

Whats the problem with the Ambulance Service in NI that it has to borrow crews from the south? https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30943168.html

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

There was a poster here from NI living in the south who has a brother who has the same health issue still living in NI compared the two health systems where he said he could get a GP appointment immediately, but in NI, his brother had to wait two days. I can't remember the name of the poster, but thats what I was going on. And then this of course.

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/health/every-hospital-waiting-list-target-18322937

Whats the problem with the Ambulance Service in NI that it has to borrow crews from the south? https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30943168.html

Belfastlive lol
...anyhow I don’t see anything wrong, I thought we were now cooperating accross the border. I believe ambulances, fire brigade and even school pupils go both directions. Would be madness not to.
I thought you’d be happy about good neighbourly cooperation.
Did we not bail you out with a few quid recently ? And we provide a pathway for loads of your young people

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So you do have me confused about what identity is then.
Sounds like it is just everything in your community’s past. - some pretty grime stuff there that I would not refer to as my identity

Your history is a part of your identity. You can't just pick the good bits. You are faced with the same problem with the Centenary, you cannot just cherrypick the good bits of it for Unionists.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I thought you’d be happy about good neighbourly cooperation.

Not neighbours, our home is Ireland, one nation. Scotland, Wales, England and France are Ireland's neighbours.

Did we not bail you out with a few quid recently?

Essentially Britain pumped money into British banks in Ireland and the Irish taxpayer picked up the bill. The British should be thankful.

And we provide a pathway for loads of your young people

Who is 'we' and what are you on about?

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

I am on my phone in my bed and don’t know how to search on it. I’ll try tomorrow.
You had two issues
1) Michelle did not claim funeral was fine
2) posters on here did not say she and sf done no wrong
Can I assume you are happy I have disproved 1 with evidence and that you are awaiting me to disprove 2 ?

No, Downcow. My position was not that Michelle O'Neill claimed the funeral was fine. I disputed your statement that Michelle O'Neill stated they had done nothing wrong.

I evidenced this with a quote from the very same article that you posted;

Ms O’Neill did accept that what was happening in a photograph taken after the funeral and shared on social media – of herself and two men, one with his arm round her shoulder – “shouldn’t have happened”.'

Very clearly, Michelle O'Neill is not stating that they did NOTHING wrong when there she is acknowledging something they did wrong.

A more accurate statement would be that Michelle O'Neill feels/felt like she was right to go ahead with attending the funeral, but acknowledges that mistakes were made on the day. This is obviously different to saying, 'we did nothing wrong'.

So I'd say that's a no on point one for you, Downcow. I'll wait patiently for you to demonstrate multiple posters PEPPERING the thread with claims that SF did NOTHING wrong tomorrow.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie. I was just listening to a discussion the other day on radio about how few young people can speak any degree of Irish.
It got me thinking to how a poster here the other day said Irish language was part of their identity. I was thinking how many young teenage unionists get involved in marching bands. They vote with their feet, with no funding to attract them, and join their local band. They dedicate themselves to learning the flute, bagpipes, accordion, drumming etc. They commit up to 5-6 nights a week for a substantial part of the year. They learn discipline and learn about there history and culture. All voluntary, and dare their parents try to prevent them.

Sounds like all those young musicians would have an absolute ball at this Irish College (Coláiste Lurgan is an Irish summer college in Galway)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A6__HssHW8

Singing, dancing, playing all sorts of instruments, young people having a great time - 7.5 million hits on youtube. They have done loads of covers in Irish and made videos of them.

If I was a nationalist I would be embarrassed to say Irish language was my identity given the serious lack of interest from young people even with £millions threw at it.

Does young people in the video don't look disinterested, do they?

It explains the desire to plaster Irish signs everywhere. Then everyone, old and young, could say ‘look that’s our identity’ but of course they would have to tell you that in English.

Its part of the Irish identity and heritage. Just like marching bands are part of Orange culture.

If that’s your identity then it’s in big trouble if you have to rely on the council paying for a few signs for you.

I think those signs were being put up anyway.

Let the people decide with their feet what their identity is and stop propping up minority interests with government money

The only wasting going on is people defacing them which requires them to be replaced. Do you have a problem with these people wasting public money? The signs were new and were going up anyway.

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Irish language is part of your identity downcow even though you reject it.

Orangism is a part of my Irish identity too by virtue of the fact that it happens in Ireland as are all those planter castles, as is the heritage left behind by the British etc etc.

Well to be honest, the Irish language is not really part of many peoples identity in the South, never mind the North, this even though we're told that it is part of our national identity, we're also told that it's our 1st official language.
As regards Orangeism, I think it's common in Northern England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Holland, & Canada, maybe other places too?

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well to be honest, the Irish language is not really part of many peoples identity in the South, never mind the North, this even though we're told that it is part of our national identity, we're also told that it's our 1st official language.
As regards Orangeism I think it's common in Northern England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Holland, & Canada, maybe other places too?

Like Unionists, those who pretend Irish is not a part of their everyday lives (Identity) protest too much. Have a look at place names around you for a start. Ridiculous nonsense.
Not sure what your point is about Orangism tbh.