How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

Hawthorn Tree · 30-08-2020 11:10PM

deiseindublin wrote: »

And you'd prefer they didn't prepare them for something that odds are stacked with?

Absolutely baffling...........

I made a prediction, I did not say it was wrong. It makes logical sense. Calm down a wee bit.

When it comes to Covid, people are so reactive. Try Caps the next time.

30-08-2020 11:12PM

Locotastic wrote: »

Maybe in secondary but I don't see primary going back online in any large scale, unless the schools are riddled with Covid. Even then it will be very much class by class, school by school basis. They'll be kept open come hell or high water.

What an idiotic strategy though. They shouldn’t be opening in the first place, but at the first sign of a spike they should be shut indefinitely.

No opening again until many weeks in a row without a single case in the entire country or else a vaccine.

Locotastic · 30-08-2020 11:14PM

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

We're preparing the teachers and students for this. I think you're 100% correct. 4-6 weeks it will be put of control and the plug will indeed be pulled. Hopefully we could return in the new year with a proper plan then.

Will something major have changed between now and the new year do you think?

irishblessing · 30-08-2020 11:15PM

Posh Dave wrote: »

dont forget teachers are paid to teach (or you would like to call it a free childminding service). I pay my taxes so my children can be educated so maybe you should start doing your job and stop complaining. Maybe it’s the thought of doing work after 6 months off on full pay has got you worried?

Teachers also pay taxes and as it's a free country, they can complain about working conditions (or indeed anything) if they want. You're not their employer, their boss, or the Lord thy God. :pac:

Locotastic · 30-08-2020 11:15PM

Adrianna Gigantic Moth wrote: »

No opening again until many weeks in a row without a single case in the entire country or else a vaccine.

Unrealistic unfortunately, long time waiting for that day to arrive.

Hawthorn Tree · 30-08-2020 11:16PM

Adrianna Gigantic Moth wrote: »

What an idiotic strategy though. They shouldn’t be opening in the first place, but at the first sign of a spike they should be shut indefinitely.

No opening again until many weeks in a row without a single case in the entire country or else a vaccine.

I see you are not a realist. They do need to open. The children need some focus again for as long as it lasts. We will never eradicate Covid completely from Ireland. A foolproof vaccine is highly unlikely.

smellyoldboot · 30-08-2020 11:17PM

I'd say they might try drag it out till Christmas, numbers will be fudged, the finger will be pointed elsewhere before the WHO/EU starts asking questions and then some prominent scientists and politicians will be allowed to resign seeing as nobody ever gets sacked for incompetence and/or fraud in this country.

jrosen · 30-08-2020 11:18PM

Unless there is a real long term solution to on line teaching schools will remain open. There is currently no alternative that delivers adequate consistent teaching to all students through every school in Ireland. I do think we will see classes sent home, temp school closures where there has been a clusters of cases but the government know there is zero public patience at this stage.

Leftwaffe · 30-08-2020 11:18PM

Locotastic wrote: »

Will something major have changed between now and the new year do you think?

No probably not.

I think schools won't last. Closed individually first then, as the number of closures rise, regionally and perhaps nationally.

There will be too many cases arising and NPHET will recommend they close. We have to try though and they should be given the chance, like all sectors.

pwurple · 30-08-2020 11:21PM

Posh Dave wrote: »

Probably better for the first month or two to see how it goes. What we all do not want is the schools shutting down again

Sorry, but that's just pure ignorance of this disease. We already kept children out of school. What's the magic cutoff point?

Let's look at what we know at this stage. We know children are not as affected as older people. Why? We know children have less of the protein (ACE2) that Covid binds to, because it develops as we humans age. That means they can't get it as easily when exposed. We know children don't have the fully developed system that creates a cytokine storm, which is what hospitalises people with severe Covid, so they don't get as sick if they do get it. And we know they do not shed the disease at the same level, hence they are not as contagious. The r number for children is absolutely miniscule.

With a risk assessment, children should currently be out and about as completely normal in Ireland. Instead we are doing pods, bubbles, bleaching the sugar out of everything, to appease non-scientific thinking and give some level of what... Reassurance? All it seems to do is make being a hypochondriac cool...

Enough is enough. Just leave the kids get on with their lives, and protect those who need protection. Punishing children and damaging their future is the wrong focus.

Jinglejangle69 · 30-08-2020 11:24PM

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

No probably not.

I think schools won't last. Closed individually first then, as the number of closures rise, regionally and perhaps nationally.

There will be too many cases arising and NPHET will recommend they close. We have to try though and they should be given the chance, like all sectors.

Can I have a lend of your crystal ball?

irishblessing · 30-08-2020 11:25PM

pwurple wrote: »

Sorry, but that's just pure ignorance of this disease. We already kept children out of school. What's the magic cutoff point?

Let's look at what we know at this stage. We know children are not as affected as older people. Why? We know children have less of the protein (ACE2) that Covid binds to, because it develops as we humans age. That means they can't get it as easily when exposed. We know children don't have the fully developed system that creates a cytokine storm, which is what hospitalises people with severe Covid, so they don't get as sick if they do get it. And we know they do not shed the disease at the same level, hence they are not as contagious. The r number for children is absolutely miniscule.

With a risk assessment, children should currently be out and about as completely normal in Ireland. Instead we are doing pods, bubbles, bleaching the sugar out of everything, to appease non-scientific thinking and give some level of what... Reassurance? All it seems to do is make being a hypochondriac cool...

Enough is enough. Just leave the kids get on with their lives, and protect those who need protection. Punishing children and damaging their future is the wrong focus.

Link for that? Because I've read articles on scientific studies, also stated by Mike Ryan of WHO that says you're wrong.

pwurple · 30-08-2020 11:31PM

irishblessing wrote: »

Link for that? Because I've read articles on scientific studies, also stated by Mike Ryan of WHO that says you're wrong.

https://www.rivm.nl/en/novel-coronavirus-covid-19/children-and-covid-19

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7268273/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-sweden-schools/swedens-health-agency-says-open-schools-did-not-spur-pandemic-spread-among-children-idUSKCN24G2IS

Interestingly, remember the family who returned to Ireland from Italy at the very start here? 2 of the children, Covid positive, went to school for a week ... Not one single other person got it from them. Zero transmission. ~1000 close contacts. None of them picked up this highly contagious disease.

Treppen · 30-08-2020 11:32PM

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

No probably not.

I think schools won't last. Closed individually first then, as the number of closures rise, regionally and perhaps nationally.

There will be too many cases arising and NPHET will recommend they close. We have to try though and they should be given the chance, like all sectors.

But remember Micheal Martin said kids could only catch Covid from home, so the chances of them catching it in schools is very low. :pac:

iguana · 30-08-2020 11:36PM

pwurple wrote: »

And we know they do not shed the disease at the same level, hence they are not as contagious. The r number for children is absolutely miniscule.

Nope. That's what we thought might be the case back in the spring. Now that we have real data on this, that is no longer the prevailing scientific opinion. What we appear to know now is that children of 10 and older spread the virus at the exact same rate as everyone else. That the older a child, from 0-9, the more likely they are to spread it. The WHO recommends children from 6+ wear masks for this reason. We know that in Israel schools were directly responsible for 47% of infections in the first month of their second wave. We know that 'middle school' children were the main source of school infections.

We need to keep on top of new information and not continue to cling to old information because it suited us. My son and I probably had the virus, so I was very attached to any evidence that indicated we had immunity. I sure as hell don't like the fact that it's increasingly likely that reinfection already appears to be happening. But that doesn't change the facts.

It would be absolutely fantastic if children weren't spreaders. But that does not appear to be the case. And schools being brought back with plans based on old assumptions is a recipe for disaster.

khalessi · 30-08-2020 11:46PM

pwurple wrote: »

https://www.rivm.nl/en/novel-coronavirus-covid-19/children-and-covid-19

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7268273/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-sweden-schools/swedens-health-agency-says-open-schools-did-not-spur-pandemic-spread-among-children-idUSKCN24G2IS

Interestingly, remember the family who returned to Ireland from Italy at the very start here? 2 of the children, Covid positive, went to school for a week ... Not one single other person got it from them. Zero transmission. ~1000 close contacts. None of them picked up this highly contagious disease.

Ireland's case was in March and the virus has developed since then.

Norway's biggest school case have 40 children who got Covid19 directly linked to their school.

https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/BR569e/undefined

It was Norway's biggest school outbreak. Infection hunters believe that the outbreak provides new insight into the role of children in the spread of infection.
40 cases could be traced to the school. The municipal superintendent in Lillestrøm believes that the outbreak at Sagdalen school calls into question what we know about children's role in the spread of infection.
The school holiday had just begun, but at Sagdalen school on Strømmen it was anything but a holiday. Instead, an intense hunt for infection took place.

The alarm went off on June 23. Then the municipal chief in Lillestrøm, Bettina C. Fossberg, was notified of the situation at the school.

Students from six classes were brought back from vacation. A separate test station was set up at the school. Here, most students, all employees and many in the local community were tested in two rounds.

Now, two months later, the municipality and the National Institute of Public Health have made a report on the outbreak. It provides deeper insight into several areas. One of them is the role of children in the spread of infection. The municipal chief believes that this can provide important knowledge about how schools should respond to the pandemic

30-08-2020 11:47PM

pwurple wrote: »

Enough is enough. Just leave the kids get on with their lives, and protect those who need protection. Punishing children and damaging their future is the wrong focus.

The level of drama and exaggeration over “damaging children’s futures” is gone beyond a joke. They have missed a few months of school, big deal. If they missed another full year it would make feck all difference to their “future”. Honestly people need to get their priority’s straight. The entire country should have one target, eliminating covid-19 everything else can wait.

If people don’t like it well pity about them. Schools should not be opening, restaurants should not be open, the law making house parties criminal should have been pushed through, the guards should be doubling their efforts to stop gatherings etc etc.

khalessi · 30-08-2020 11:48PM

ALso Mike Ryan of the WHO in conversation with Sarah McInerney agreed that children 10-12 years of age and teenagers spread it as easily as adults about 2 weeks ago.

Russman · 31-08-2020 12:14AM

Adrianna Gigantic Moth wrote: »

The level of drama and exaggeration over “damaging children’s futures” is gone beyond a joke. They have missed a few months of school, big deal. If they missed another full year it would make feck all difference to their “future”. Honestly people need to get their priority’s straight. The entire country should have one target, eliminating covid-19 everything else can wait.

If people don’t like it well pity about them. Schools should not be opening, restaurants should not be open, the law making house parties criminal should have been pushed through, the guards should be doubling their efforts to stop gatherings etc etc.

I honestly think a lot (in fairness, not all of it) of the concern about kids is really parents sick of having to deal with them for the last 5 months.

Jinglejangle69 · 31-08-2020 12:31AM

Adrianna Gigantic Moth wrote: »

The level of drama and exaggeration over “damaging children’s futures” is gone beyond a joke. They have missed a few months of school, big deal. If they missed another full year it would make feck all difference to their “future”. Honestly people need to get their priority’s straight. The entire country should have one target, eliminating covid-19 everything else can wait.

If people don’t like it well pity about them. Schools should not be opening, restaurants should not be open, the law making house parties criminal should have been pushed through, the guards should be doubling their efforts to stop gatherings etc etc.

1/10.

31-08-2020 08:22AM

Russman wrote: »

I honestly think a lot (in fairness, not all of it) of the concern about kids is really parents sick of having to deal with them for the last 5 months.

There is certainly a large element of that, parents want their free childcare.

Locotastic · 31-08-2020 08:26AM

pwurple wrote: »

Interestingly, remember the family who returned to Ireland from Italy at the very start here? 2 of the children, Covid positive, went to school for a week ... Not one single other person got it from them. Zero transmission. ~1000 close contacts. None of them picked up this highly contagious disease.

How contagious is it really? I know a few people who were close contacts, as in sharing the same bed close in some cases and they didn't contract it.

I know of families where one member got it through work and nobody in their family caught it.

Would be interesting to see just how contagious it is or if there have been any studies done around this.

Edit OK found one study that concludes:

2.6% of close contacts of cases contracted COVID-19; almost half were asymptomatic or had mild infection. The main transmission appeared to take place via household contacts.

So if you're covid positive and you've 40 close contacts odds are that 1 person will contract it from you.

Obviously there are differentials but that seems to be the simple figures.

beggars_bush · 31-08-2020 08:34AM

Good luck to anyone going back today

Students and staff

pwurple · 31-08-2020 08:39AM

Adrianna Gigantic Moth wrote: »

The level of drama and exaggeration over “damaging children’s futures” is gone beyond a joke. They have missed a few months of school, big deal. If they missed another full year it would make feck all difference to their “future”. Honestly people need to get their priority’s straight. The entire country should have one target, eliminating covid-19 everything else can wait.

If people don’t like it well pity about them. Schools should not be opening, restaurants should not be open, the law making house parties criminal should have been pushed through, the guards should be doubling their efforts to stop gatherings etc etc.

Aha. And it was another 4 years?
What if "eliminating covid-19" is as acheivable as "eliminating" cancer? Hey let's just lay all the teachers off is it? Great idea.

We can count the number of covid patients in hospital on one hand at the moment. We can live with that.

Meanwhile we have isolated people committing suicide, cancer patients not getting diagonosed until they are terminal because of the backlog in biopsies, our unemployed youth are resorting to crime and blackmarket drink / drugs. Our tax income is being wiped out. What are you paying these doubling of guards with? They don't run on fresh air.

facehugger99 · 31-08-2020 08:44AM

Adrianna Gigantic Moth wrote: »

The level of drama and exaggeration over “damaging children’s futures” is gone beyond a joke. They have missed a few months of school, big deal. If they missed another full year it would make feck all difference to their “future”. Honestly people need to get their priority’s straight. The entire country should have one target, eliminating covid-19 everything else can wait.

If people don’t like it well pity about them. Schools should not be opening, restaurants should not be open, the law making house parties criminal should have been pushed through, the guards should be doubling their efforts to stop gatherings etc etc.

My children's education trumps your irrational fear - all day, every day

freak scence · 31-08-2020 08:46AM

Adrianna Gigantic Moth wrote: »

The level of drama and exaggeration over “damaging children’s futures” is gone beyond a joke. They have missed a few months of school, big deal. If they missed another full year it would make feck all difference to their “future”. Honestly people need to get their priority’s straight. The entire country should have one target, eliminating covid-19 everything else can wait.

If people don’t like it well pity about them. Schools should not be opening, restaurants should not be open, the law making house parties criminal should have been pushed through, the guards should be doubling their efforts to stop gatherings etc etc.

how many people are dying from it now shag all open everything up, if you don;t like that move to leitrim

pwurple · 31-08-2020 08:52AM

Russman wrote: »

I honestly think a lot (in fairness, not all of it) of the concern about kids is really parents sick of having to deal with them for the last 5 months.

There's a whiff of privilege off that post. I'm alright Jack is it?

I'm sure if you have mamai sa chistin agus dad on fulltime work-from-home, with fibre broadband and shopping delivered, you're fine with school open or closed.

If you're in a deis area, where the children were being FED actual food at school, it's a different story.

If your family relies on social supports (IE school is the only place they are not hopped off the wall), you're in trouble.

If your child needs intensive support to maintain how they function, you're in bad shape.

If you're in rural ireland with your first chance of getting to college and meet some like minded peers, you're stuck at home on the farm. Putting young adults lives on hold for years? Putting their own home and career out of reach for a longer time.

And don't pooh pooh that childcare aspect either. I have colleagues in healthcare who are having nervous breakdowns from sleep deprivation because they are working nightshifts and coming home to full time childcare.

Even beyond the personal impact on workers, the impact on us is important. If people can't work, they can't create income that gets taxed. Exchequer funds are meaningless to some, but with an eye on the bigger picture, the longer this goes on, the less people can work, the longer we will all be paying for it. Say bye bye to a chunk of your pensions, hello cuts to social welfare, see ya later arts programs, cuts to the gardai etc etc etc.

School is absolutely integral to our society. It's how we stop the poor getting poorer. It's how we prevent future societal breakdown. it's how we support each other, especially those who badly NEED that support.

drunkmonkey · 31-08-2020 08:54AM

iguana wrote: »

Nope. That's what we thought might be the case back in the spring. Now that we have real data on this, that is no longer the prevailing scientific opinion. What we appear to know now is that children of 10 and older spread the virus at the exact same rate as everyone else. That the older a child, from 0-9, the more likely they are to spread it. The WHO recommends children from 6+ wear masks for this reason. We know that in Israel schools were directly responsible for 47% of infections in the first month of their second wave. We know that 'middle school' children were the main source of school infections.

We need to keep on top of new information and not continue to cling to old information because it suited us. My son and I probably had the virus, so I was very attached to any evidence that indicated we had immunity. I sure as hell don't like the fact that it's increasingly likely that reinfection already appears to be happening. But that doesn't change the facts.

It would be absolutely fantastic if children weren't spreaders. But that does not appear to be the case. And schools being brought back with plans based on old assumptions is a recipe for disaster.

That's all correct only if you believe asymptomatic children spread it as much as symptomatic, it doesn't seem to be the case though.

irishblessing · 31-08-2020 09:07AM

pwurple wrote: »

There's a whiff of privilege off that post. I'm alright Jack is it?

I'm sure if you have mamai sa chistin agus dad on fulltime work-from-home, with fibre broadband and shopping delivered, you're fine with school open or closed.

If you're in a deis area, where the children were being FED actual food at school, it's a different story.

If your family relies on social supports (IE school is the only place they are not hopped off the wall), you're in trouble.

If your child needs intensive support to maintain how they function, you're in bad shape.

If you're in rural ireland with your first chance of getting to college and meet some like minded peers, you're stuck at home on the farm. Putting young adults lives on hold for years? Putting their own home and career out of reach for a longer time.

And don't pooh pooh that childcare aspect either. I have colleagues in healthcare who are having nervous breakdowns from sleep deprivation because they are working nightshifts and coming home to full time childcare.

Even beyond the personal impact on workers, the impact on us is important. If people can't work, they can't create income that gets taxed. Exchequer funds are meaningless to some, but with an eye on the bigger picture, the longer this goes on, the less people can work, the longer we will all be paying for it. Say bye bye to a chunk of your pensions, hello cuts to social welfare, see ya later arts programs, cuts to the gardai etc etc etc.

School is absolutely integral to our society. It's how we stop the poor getting poorer. It's how we prevent future societal breakdown. it's how we support each other, especially those who badly NEED that support.

While that is all true, schools are also the place where 1 million children will be mixing and going back to their homes, during what the government has described as a very concerning time, a tipping point. That the virus is currently silently spreading and if we have to go on another mass lockdown where will the economy and your exchequer be then?

There needs to be a balance. There is no need for the schools to close. The government could have approached this using the brains Mike Ryan of WHO says we have against the virus, to outsmart it. I'm not so sure we have people in charge with smart brains. There should have been a blended/hybrid remote learning plan to reduce class sizes. They could have focused on connecting the country's wifi grid which is hopelessly behind schedule and they could have found solutions with chrome books and hot spots for those who need it. Other countries have done this, but its impossible for a very small island country? Please.

Edited to add: and vulnerable students, family, and teachers deserved to have that better plan that protects them too.

drunkmonkey · 31-08-2020 09:22AM

There won't be another lockdown, we wouldn't have had a first one if we didn't have unchecked spread in health care settings. That's not going to happen again.

How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

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