Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - Read OP for Mod Warnings

John Hutton · 26-08-2020 10:30AM

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

5. There has to be a callous pragmatic discussion had with ones self about how long it is acceptable to have (for example) 500 air hostesses and bar staff to be unemployed, to give 4 grandads 3 more years of life. I don't want anyone to die but there must be a line in each of our heads where someone else's life doesn't actually matter to us any more compared to the societal damage keeping those grandads alive causes. People will pretend that they don't have a line, but there is a line somewhere where grandad dying is the cost of doing business. Where the line is however is the question.

This is evil. No ones job is worth more than someones life.

26-08-2020 10:48AM

John Hutton wrote: »

This is evil. No ones job is worth more than someones life.

But he isn't talking about 1 job.

We have a huge number of people unemployed and a monster recession ahead of us. A recession that will likely see many people lose homes, jobs, income as well as cuts to almost everything one can think of.

Another major blow for our younger generations who were already struggling to buy homes of their own. They can probably kiss goodbye to that dream now as I don't think we've given the housing crisis a bit of thought in 2020.

Its about time we moved on and started worrying about things other than Covid.

jackal · 26-08-2020 10:51AM

John Hutton wrote: »

This is evil. No ones job is worth more than someones life.

Close the roads so. What would you need to be going anywhere for anyway? Sure you could KILL SOMEONE.

topper75 · 26-08-2020 12:06PM

John Hutton wrote: »

This is evil. No ones job is worth more than someones life.

An extreme and wreckless position to take. Luckily you are just a bystander boards typist like myself and have no decision-making power.

Flu kills every year. Why weren't you staying on the dole and wearing a face mask before 2020 if you really believe what you typed?

LuckyLloyd · 26-08-2020 12:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

We've had pubs closed for almost half a year now. The only ones open are been forced to act like restaurants and have curfews etc.

We have shops operating at reduced capacity. Not allowed to use changing rooms etc. Only a certain number allowed in to the shop.

People are not allowed to watch their children play sports. People are only supposed to have 6 in their houses etc.

People are been forced to wear masks.

All of these restrictions need to vanish.

This is exactly what 'living with the virus' is. We've reached an equilibrium. The vast majority of people are employed and getting on with their lives. The restrictions were lifted. Covid 0 was never attempted. The continued hysteria on this thread is patently ridiculous.

GocRh · 26-08-2020 01:06PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is exactly what 'living with the virus' is. We've reached an equilibrium. The vast majority of people are employed and getting on with their lives. The restrictions were lifted. Covid 0 was never attempted. The continued hysteria on this thread is patently ridiculous.

No other European country with cases similar to Ireland have prohibited pubs to re-open, and implemented a blanket nationwide curfew on restaurant operating hours. All countries have localised restrictions but we still have blanket, countrywide restrictions.

That's what the OP alluded to. We are still living under restrictions that are not seen anywhere else in Europe.

BTW I disagree with the OP's continued stance against the wearing of masks. It's a small sacrifice and doesn't cost jobs or impacts quality of living.

LuckyLloyd · 26-08-2020 01:10PM

GocRh wrote: »

No other European country with cases similar to Ireland have prohibited pubs to re-open, and implemented a blanket nationwide curfew on restaurant operating hours. All countries have localised restrictions but we still have blanket, countrywide restrictions.

That's what the OP alluded to. We are still living under restrictions that are not seen anywhere else in Europe.

Nowhere else in Europe has a culture of revelry quite like ours.

The things that are left unopened are not structural contributors to the economy. Yes they generate employment, revenue and profit but they are lower barrier to entry type business that will resume in relatively short order once the pandemic is over. We trade off these types of economic activity so we keep the vast majority of the population healthy and employed while making sure our kids receive an education.

Again, this is exactly what "living with the virus" is. People in this thread need to "act like grownups" and accept reality.

walus · 26-08-2020 01:16PM

John Hutton wrote: »

This is evil. No ones job is worth more than someones life.

1 for 1 possibly not. How about 1 life for 20, 50 or 100 jobs? There has to be a line somewhere. Just bear in mind that when an unemployment goes up by 1% suicide rate goes up 1.1% at the same time. Jobs are lives, quite literally. it does not matter whether one's job is very productive and meaningful in terms of economic output. For most people out there jobs are meaningful to them, their well being, happiness, security etc.

Covid adjusted unemployment is 16.7% right now if even half of those people don't come back into employment we will have an effective unemployment rate of 11% that is roughly 6% more, and consequently 6.6% more suicides (about 20 more per year at such unemployment rate). I wonder if the government will notice that...

26-08-2020 01:19PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Nowhere else in Europe has a culture of revelry quite like ours.

The things that are left unopened are not structural contributors to the economy. Yes they generate employment, revenue and profit but they are lower barrier to entry type business that will resume in relatively short order once the pandemic is over. We trade off these types of economic activity so we keep the vast majority of the population healthy and employed while making sure our kids receive an education.

Again, this is exactly what "living with the virus" is. People in this thread need to "act like grownups" and accept reality.

Patently untrue.

And its wishful thinking that these businesses will simply reopen in a year's time. Its the destruction of livelihoods, culture, nightlife, possibly many town centres.

A proper public discussion needs to be had

GocRh · 26-08-2020 01:21PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Nowhere else in Europe has a culture of revelry quite like ours.

I would invite you to visit any Eastern European country.

We need to deconstruct this notion that the Irish can't control themselves and are constantly drunk.

MadYaker · 26-08-2020 01:23PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We've had pubs closed for almost half a year now. The only ones open are been forced to act like restaurants and have curfews etc.

We have shops operating at reduced capacity. Not allowed to use changing rooms etc. Only a certain number allowed in to the shop.

People are not allowed to watch their children play sports. People are only supposed to have 6 in their houses etc.

People are been forced to wear masks.

All of these restrictions need to vanish.

You’re not making any sense. First you said the vulnerable need to be protected and we need to prevent clusters with hand sanitising and social distancing, well social distancing is the reason shops and restaurants are operating at reduced capacity. Why did you think they were doing it?

I would say we’ve reached a pretty good equilibrium to be honest. Yes, people are still getting infected and dying but the economy is mostly open now.

HeidiHeidi · 26-08-2020 01:34PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is exactly what 'living with the virus' is. We've reached an equilibrium. The vast majority of people are employed and getting on with their lives. The restrictions were lifted. Covid 0 was never attempted. The continued hysteria on this thread is patently ridiculous.

This is it in a nutshell.

A lot of people seem to think that "living with the virus" = "as we were in January 2020".

Things are not going back to as they were any time soon. We can attempt to get close (as is happening, with occasional hiccups and setbacks), but every single thing will not be opening up, no matter how much foot stamping is done.

walus · 26-08-2020 01:44PM

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

This is it in a nutshell.

A lot of people seem to think that "living with the virus" = "as we were in January 2020".

Things are not going back to as they were any time soon. We can attempt to get close (as is happening, with occasional hiccups and setbacks), but every single thing will not be opening up, no matter how much for stamping is done.

I suppose the point that a lot of people are trying to make here is that knowing the real covid 19 stats and associated risk for various demographics the measures introduced would not have been this restrictive, and therefore most of the population could go back to living their lives largely in the normal way.

26-08-2020 02:10PM

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

There were no "mish mash of ideas" presented. It was a list of observations

Well in response to you point about post 12 I had planned on making one post (my initial one) and then bowing out, which I will be doing shortly. The discourse is getting me down to be honest. And I blame both sides for that. Even if the post was Ironic ....so what? How does the man who drives the snow plough get to work? I had to add to the dumpster fire to tell people it was a dumpster fire. I didn't start the dumpster fire nor have I intended to pour petrol on it.

I didnt compare a disease to recreational drugs. I compared peoples attitudes to the disease and to recreational drugs. My point being people have invented a new personal morality/standard/fear possibly influenced by the hysteria and media narrative. The casedemic for want of a better phrase.

Covid zero is being mooted by people such as Tomas Ryan who is on Eamon Dunphys podcasts every three days telling us to go to our army bunkers and come back out in 2025. Isn't it well for him with his guaranteed salary security of Tenure and 15 minutes of fame.

Look .... i googled chances of getting cancer and the first result said its a 1 in 3 shot for men.

I'll be generous and multiply that by 5 . Lets say its a 1 in 15 chance of getting cancer ..its still more of a threat to me than dying of covid 19. Im not afraid of covid. A lot of the old and ill died and that's an awful tragedy but they cant die twice.

Attitudes to recreational drugs and an infectious virus should be different. They not really comparable. As bad as it can be for your health, you can't inadvertently infect people around you by doing a few lines.

Some people are going to push zero covid like Tomas Ryan, others are going push whatever they push such as Jim Corr. We aren't as a country taking either approach. Although I wish we attempted zero covid a few months back. Too late now though.

Not really sure what you are trying to say about cancer. We're constantly actively looking for cures and treatments for cancer. Other dangerous diseases exist therefore we shouldn't heed covid? It's not a highly infectious virus that can snowball so again it's not really comparable.

26-08-2020 02:45PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is exactly what 'living with the virus' is. We've reached an equilibrium. The vast majority of people are employed and getting on with their lives. The restrictions were lifted. Covid 0 was never attempted. The continued hysteria on this thread is patently ridiculous.

What you are mentioning is not "living" it is surviving.

And with just 4 people in ICU and a tiny death rate, I don't see any reason at all why we should continue to simply survive.

Not to mention, we don't have the funds to keep this up forever, like some of you seem to think. We have record numbers of people unemployed. Who is going to pay to keep them unemployed?

Should we just accept that socializing is now a thing of the past? No pubs, no house gatherings, curfews on restaurants, restrictions on travel, no attendance at all at sports.

What a joyous xmas we are in for this year? Garda breaking down front doors and interrupting xmas dinners as there are 7 guests in a house. Maybe we have to pick which sibling to leave out.

These draconian measures will never last.

CruelSummer · 26-08-2020 02:56PM

Explainer from the Independent came up as a push notification on my phone this lunchtime:

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/explainer-what-do-the-reports-of-people-being-reinfected-with-covid-19-mean-will-we-ever-build-up-immunity-to-the-virus-39479302.html

Translation: How do we keep people afraid and hyped up about the virus, especially as hospital and ICU rates keep falling...

Let's just leave out the little detail that the person in Hong Kong who tested positive for two different strains on two separate occasions, was ASYMPTOMATIC the 2nd time. He wasn't sick....this isn't newsworthy unless there's an agenda being pushed.

26-08-2020 03:02PM

CruelSummer wrote: »

Explainer from the Independent came up as a push notification on my phone this lunchtime:

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/explainer-what-do-the-reports-of-people-being-reinfected-with-covid-19-mean-will-we-ever-build-up-immunity-to-the-virus-39479302.html

Translation: How do we keep people afraid and hyped up about the virus, especially as hospital and ICU rates keep falling...

Let's just leave out the little detail that the person in Hong Kong who tested positive for two different strains on two separate occasions, was ASYMPTOMATIC the 2nd time. He wasn't sick....this isn't newsworthy unless there's an agenda being pushed.

Even the hospitalization numbers need to be taken with a pinch of salt.
They include people that aren't even primarily in hospital due to Covid.

If I broke my leg today and tested positive for Covid but had no symptoms and wasn't sick , I would be included in the hospital figures.

Penfailed · 26-08-2020 03:13PM

walus wrote: »

1 for 1 possibly not. How about 1 life for 20, 50 or 100 jobs? There has to be a line somewhere. Just bear in mind that when an unemployment goes up by 1% suicide rate goes up 1.1% at the same time. Jobs are lives, quite literally. it does not matter whether one's job is very productive and meaningful in terms of economic output. For most people out there jobs are meaningful to them, their well being, happiness, security etc.

Covid adjusted unemployment is 16.7% right now if even half of those people don't come back into employment we will have an effective unemployment rate of 11% that is roughly 6% more, and consequently 6.6% more suicides (about 20 more per year at such unemployment rate). I wonder if the government will notice that...

The largest killer of males under 45 is suicide.

i_surge · 26-08-2020 03:13PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We don't need to have an over elaborate plan. Our testing and tracing could be improved but its at a decent level now.

The most important thing is to keep the nursing homes protected. They are the only people that are going to die in any sort of considerable numbers. With our testing and tracing in place, we won't get back to a level were there are 235 clusters in nursing homes again.

The elderly and the vulnerable should be encouraged to take extra care, which they have been told to do to be fair. It is up to them now to do so.

Everybody else should continue to wash hands and social distance as much as possible.

We need to analyze the cause when clusters do pop up and take appropriate actions. Outbreaks in meat factories should not result in counties going into lockdown or other businesses been forced to close.

We should be looking at what we can do to help prevent the spread in factories. Temp checks, testing, random inspections, closures if needed.

With only 4 in ICU and very few deaths to speak of over the last number of weeks, it is time for people to start going about their lives as normal again.

We need to accept the reality that some people are going to sick and some people might die. Same way other illnesses kill people everyday.

It is time to act like grown ups and have a sensible approach that won't bankrupt a whole generation.

We heard that keep calm and wash hands things from the UK in Feb. Supposedly they had models to predict the future.

They also had low case numbers at the time.

Disastrous policy in the end.

i_surge · 26-08-2020 03:18PM

The economy was fine.

It is bad now because of covid and it will continue to be bad until it is over.

How anyone thinks we can live along side the source of all our problems is beyond me.

i_surge · 26-08-2020 03:21PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Nowhere else in Europe has a culture of revelry quite like ours.

The things that are left unopened are not structural contributors to the economy. Yes they generate employment, revenue and profit but they are lower barrier to entry type business that will resume in relatively short order once the pandemic is over. We trade off these types of economic activity so we keep the vast majority of the population healthy and employed while making sure our kids receive an education.

Again, this is exactly what "living with the virus" is. People in this thread need to "act like grownups" and accept reality.

Agree with half of that but the last part is a pipe dream. There is no living with it. It is life running at 60% at best.

An economy running on fumes won't go the distance.

That is reality.

26-08-2020 03:23PM

i_surge wrote: »

The economy was fine.

It is bad now because of covid and it will continue to be bad until it is over.

How anyone thinks we can live along side the source of all our problems is beyond me.

Covid is only a problem because we continue to make it one.
4 people are in ICU in a country of 5M.
Hardly anybody has died over the last number of weeks.

But we'll probably continue to kick the can down the road until our resources run out.

At that point we'll have no choice but face up to the illness. And we'll realize that it really isn't very bad at all. Very mild illness for most.

i_surge · 26-08-2020 03:25PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Covid is only a problem because we continue to make it one.
4 people are in ICU in a country of 5M.
Hardly anybody has died over the last number of weeks.

But we'll probably continue to kick the can down the road until our resources run out.

At that point we'll have no choice but face up to the illness. And we'll realize that it really isn't very bad at all. Very mild illness for most.

Keeping fooling yourself.

The economy and covid are intrinsically linked.

hmmm · 26-08-2020 03:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

At that point we'll have no choice but face up to the illness. And we'll realize that it really isn't very bad at all. Very mild illness for most.

No matter how many times you post this, it still won't make it true.

26-08-2020 03:28PM

hmmm wrote: »

No matter how many times you post this, it still won't make it true.

Which part? That we will eventually run out of resources? Or that its a mild illness?

hmmm · 26-08-2020 03:31PM

walus wrote: »

Covid adjusted unemployment is 16.7% right now if even half of those people don't come back into employment we will have an effective unemployment rate of 11% that is roughly 6% more, and consequently 6.6% more suicides (about 20 more per year at such unemployment rate). I wonder if the government will notice that...

What I don't understand about some of the discussions on this forum is how posters are ignoring the evidence we see worldwide.

The US is a good example where we have lockdown states and no-lockdown states. The states which ignored the virus are in just as much of an economic dip as the North West states, and in many ways are worse because they haven't brought the virus under control.

People aren't stupid. If you have open bars and nightclubs, most people won't go to them if the virus is still spreading. The only way to recover the economy is to first bring the virus under control.

i_surge · 26-08-2020 03:31PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Which part? That we will eventually run out of resources? Or that its a mild illness?

Realistically we will never run out of resources, just gain a lot more debt and depression. Jobs gone forever instead of on pause the longer you clowns drag it out.

You lot seem to think we will be the third world in 3 months if you don't get a big feed of unrestricted pints ASAP.

You know it isn't though, you are just throwing a figurative tantrum to get what you want, because you want it.

i_surge · 26-08-2020 03:33PM

hmmm wrote: »

What I don't understand about some of the discussions on this forum is how posters are ignoring the evidence we see worldwide.

The US is a good example where we have lockdown states and no-lockdown states. The states which ignored the virus are in just as much of an economic dip as the North West states, and in many ways are worse because they haven't brought the virus under control.

People aren't stupid. If you have open bars and nightclubs, most people won't go to them if the virus is still spreading. The only way to recover the economy is to first bring the virus under control.

I have a pain in my face with how people are willfully ignoring the bigger picture and all the evidence around us.

26-08-2020 03:35PM

i_surge wrote: »

Realistically we will never run out of resources, just gain a lot more debt and depression. Jobs gone forever instead of on pause the longer you clowns drag it out.

You lot seem to think we will be the third world in 3 months if you don't get a big feed of unrestricted pints ASAP.

You know it isn't though, you are just throwing a figurative tantrum to get what you want, because you want it.

You're not the first person that has tried this and you won't be the last.
You think it is all about a few pints.

i_surge · 26-08-2020 03:36PM

America ****ed
Brasil ****ed
Latin America getting there
Europe simmering on a hold pattern it can't get out of

Iceland, new zealand, taiwan, vietnam and some others, more or less life as normal.

It doesn't take a genius to guess at the economic trajectories of these places for the next few years.

When is the penny going to drop?

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - Read OP for Mod Warnings