How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

amacca · 25-08-2020 11:11AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It would be very silly if the schools were not to open. Children need education.

Ill agree

If you will agree it could be very silly when they have to close in 4-6 weeks time because of the way they have been opened.

As far as I know we still have a very low number of ICU beds per head of population etc......they could be forced to close simply because the health service will be over run and there will be increasing public pressure for them to be closed.

I suspect that the powers that be know this and are hoping it doesnt happen... as am I......but I also suspect its being done this way due to piss poor chaotic planning and a political impetus to be seen as a Govt that got them open and hang the consequences...they are probably thinking they will weasel out of responsibility if it does go pear shaped down the line by saying they did it for all the right reasons and the data at the time pointed to it being safe etc etc....it will also be much more politically safe for them to close them when a good swathe of the public are calling for it to happen than reopening them in a more phased way or making more efforts to ensure social distancing etc etc....and all the inconvenience that would pose for some of the parents/voters.

I think a lot of the spokespeople have been very evasive and selective in what they say to get this to happen but I do hope I'm wrong....they are in a difficult position as its potentially no more advancement for you sonny Jim if you don't toe the line and they know it.

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 25-08-2020 11:12AM

Drumpot wrote: »

My issue , like most, isn’t that schools are reopening, it’s how they are going about reopening. I want more options (online), I want more diversity (phased reopening , much smaller classes) and more honest discussion (masks for children).

It’s funny cause on the recent correspondence from our schools it says if a child is suspected with having the virus they will put a mask on their face. But aren’t a significant proportion people/children asymptomatic? So asymptomatic children wont be wearing a mask in school as they won’t know they have it, but the school is saying they will be putting a mask on as soon as they know. Would all children wearing masks be not the obvious strategy to employ?

But you see there is no room for nuanced discussion like that, schools need to open ("end of" etc.) because kids need education and much more importantly, because every single teacher in the country has been doing no work for full pay since the schools closed.

Any attempt to suggest alternative approaches to getting the schools open implies that you want the schools to remain shut indefinitely

iamwhoiam · 25-08-2020 11:12AM

An interesting read from someone on the frontline

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/nphet-advice-covid-5184555-Aug2020/

Inviere · 25-08-2020 11:15AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It would be very silly if the schools were not to open. Children need education.

Children need education, who'd have thought eh? Of course they need education, and have a right to education...but there are other ways to provide that education while we try get the numbers back under control again. We do not need to herd them up together to provide that education, eventually yes, but heavens above, the current approach is almost certainly going to cost lives.

How about Special Educational schools re-opening? Schools filled to the brim with children who have disabilities and underlying conditions...they're all about to re-open too, and combined with the 'be grand' approach of the current batch of clowns running the show, again, I really would not be surprised to see lives being lost as a result.

As for the inevitable "well what's your answer professor" retort to the above, I say hold off 2-3 more weeks until we've a clearer picture of where this curve is going. If we can manhandle the numbers back down with a renewed public effort to get children back into school, cool, lets go for it then. If the numbers continue to alarm, rise, and get out of hand, then we need to fall back to providing education in a safer but temporary manner:

Partial re-opening of schools, not a full re-opening. That may be shorter days, or perhaps rostered attendances.
Distance/online learning, temporary home support by SNA's if we have to (possibly more suitable to those with additional needs.)
Perhaps investment in additional teaching staff, combined with temporary structures within schools to make the pods/bubbles even smaller than they are now.

^^ There's many ideas that you could explore, which would provide education in a far safer manner than what seems to be the agreed approach. Re-opening schools is a political decision, not a welfare one. There is little public support for postponing the re-openings, and therefore to do so, would put this shambolic array of politicians under even more pressure than they've brought upon themselves. I'll say it again, the current approach is going to cost lives, it's reckless, unfair, and spineless. My thoughts are with the children who Covid 19 would have a significant effect on, the school staff who'll be put at risk, and the families of said children and staff.

amacca · 25-08-2020 11:16AM

PCros wrote: »

Totally agree with this however having a kid starting Junior Infants this year I just know he would have that pulled off his face within the first 10 mins!

I just don't know at what age they should wear them - possibly 8 year olds and upwards?

That could be the case in a lot of post primary settings too

Its an awful pity rules are not rules any more afaic

if you have a genuine medical issue that means you cannot wear a mask then fine otherwise as young as possible...but 8 wouldnt be bad at all I suppose

markodaly · 25-08-2020 11:18AM

downthemiddle wrote: »

Meh. It’s only Marko’s weekly rant. He loves unions as much as Michael O’Leary.
In the real world, schools in Seoul have closed and gone online due to a surge in cases. No doubt the NCCA will have an online curriculum ready for the inevitable closures here.

Blondini wrote: »

Easy to give such a controversial opinion behind the safety of your keyboard.

Cowardly.

khalessi wrote: »

Its just Mark. I have a bingo game based on his cliches about teachers, I have got BINGO a few times.

Interesting not one of you took issue with the statement from the ASTI Rep, instead its much much easier to take a pot shot at the messanger.

Does anyone find it remotely odd that the ASTI are now giving medical advice and prognosis to journalists? Do you think that is acting in the best interest of teachers, or are they simply trying to scaremonger?

Do you think its irresponsible that the ASTI are engaging in pesudo medical science now to further some aim of theirs?

markodaly · 25-08-2020 11:21AM

irishblessing wrote: »

They're not "that sick," they're that vulnerable. The game has suddenly changed and they're not disposable. Despicable.

If they were that sick, then they would be on sick leave.
The article mentions people with Cancer for example. Normally if one has cancer they are on sick leave.

How many active teachers have cancer, are there any stats on this, or is the ASTI Rep doing a Donald Trump?

meeeeh · 25-08-2020 11:25AM

amacca wrote: »

Ill agree

If you will agree it could be very silly when they have to close in 4-6 weeks time because of the way they have been opened.

As far as I know we still have a very low number of ICU beds per head of population etc......they could be forced to close simply because the health service will be over run and there will be increasing public pressure for them to be closed.

I suspect that the powers that be know this and are hoping it doesnt happen... as am I......but I also suspect its being done this way due to piss poor chaotic planning and a political impetus to be seen as a Govt that got them open and hang the consequences...they are probably thinking they will weasel out of responsibility if it does go pear shaped down the line by saying they did it for all the right reasons and the data at the time pointed to it being safe etc etc....it will also be much more politically safe for them to close them when a good swathe of the public are calling for it to happen than reopening them in a more phased way or making more efforts to ensure social distancing etc etc....and all the inconvenience that would pose for some of the parents/voters.

I think a lot of the spokespeople have been very evasive and selective in what they say to get this to happen but I do hope I'm wrong.

Actually I think the only reason for not reopening schools gradually is because we lost so much time and nobody has the stomach to deal with unions and start phased opening at the begging to middle of August.

Large parts of Europe who did gradual reopening did it in spring. We are among the last in the class.

I haven't seen any data that schools in isolation increase the pressure on the ICU beds.

25-08-2020 11:26AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It would be very silly if the schools were not to open. Children need education.

Peoples lives are more important than a delay of a year in a child’s education.

We should not be even considering opening schools never mind actually opening them. It’s going to be a meat plant in every town and village and people are going to die because of it and others are going to have long term health issues.

A vaccine or weeks without a single case in the country are the things that need to happen before looking at opening schools.

amacca · 25-08-2020 11:30AM

markodaly wrote: »

How many active teachers have cancer, are there any stats on this, or is the ASTI Rep doing a Donald Trump?

I dont know if there are any stats but I do know a school where there are three in a staff of 51.........one on leave, the other two returned to work last year after treatment.

The two that are back are highly nervous although admittedly I dont know the details of their recovery, if the immune system is compromised etc etc

I dont know how representative that is of the national picture..

Are you sure you are not doing a bit of a Donald Trump yourself?

Sunday Sunday · 25-08-2020 11:31AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

The sample size is sufficiently large and the evidence is such that I'd go so far as to say it's probable. We've herded our kids in to classrooms that are too small.
That wasn't a systematic risk until recently. Instead of addressing that small issue we are carrying on with some form of stiff upper lip horses!t.

Smaller classes wouldn't eliminate that scenario either, minimise the risk maybe but there is no way to eliminate risk completely.

We will have cases and we will have clusters and that scenario could well play out a number of times or it might not.

It is impossible to eliminate all risks.

caveat emptor · 25-08-2020 11:35AM

Sunday Sunday wrote: »

Smaller classes wouldn't eliminate that scenario either, minimise the risk maybe but there is no way to eliminate risk completely.

We will have cases and we will have clusters and that scenario could well play out a number of times or it might not.

It is impossible to eliminate all risks.

So why are we only allowed have 6 people in our back garden?

I guess it's because contact tracing and testing was feeling the strain and taking too long to turn around.

Opening schools is going to blow up that capability and lead to runaway transmission.

And in the interest of balance the contrarian opinion.

"It'll be grand."

Icyseanfitz · 25-08-2020 11:35AM

Sunday Sunday wrote: »

Smaller classes wouldn't eliminate that scenario either, minimise the risk maybe but there is no way to eliminate risk completely.

We will have cases and we will have clusters and that scenario could well play out a number of times or it might not.

It is impossible to eliminate all risks.

It's not about eliminating all the risk, it's about mitigating it until a vaccine is created

Sunday Sunday · 25-08-2020 11:35AM

Adrianna Gigantic Moth wrote: »

A vaccine or weeks without a single case in the country are the things that need to happen before looking at opening schools.

Both of which may never come.

amacca · 25-08-2020 11:36AM

meeeeh wrote: »

I haven't seen any data that schools in isolation increase the pressure on the ICU beds.

I think what most posters are getting at is it wont be schools in isolation....it will be a large contributing factor but its all the mixing going on

sort of like schools being a catalyst

on the last in the class thing....isnt that a bit of an apples and oranges thing?....are there not other factors at play there too?

the other education systems have a different school year, smaller class sizes ensured for the return, resources etc

some of those other countries also seem to have health services better equipped to deal with rise in cases

I was under the impression the limiting factor here was we are definitely last in class when it comes to ICU beds hence the initial need for our lockdown to be more draconian.....I dont think this has changed.

Sunday Sunday · 25-08-2020 11:37AM

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

It's not about eliminating all the risk, it's about mitigating it until a vaccine is created

If a vaccine is created, if it has a high success rate, if people take the vaccine. A lot of contingencies when we are talking about waiting for a vaccine that might never come at all.

Icyseanfitz · 25-08-2020 11:38AM

Sunday Sunday wrote: »

Both of which may never come.

What's the alternative? Living with it? Considering it is now known to reinfect that doesn't seem like a particularly good solution anymore.

bladespin · 25-08-2020 11:42AM

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

What's the alternative? Living with it? Considering it is now known to reinfect that doesn't seem like a particularly good solution anymore.

I'd say yes, according to the experts re-infection results in a much milder dose, for me it's starting to very much sound like a flu from there on.

markodaly · 25-08-2020 11:44AM

amacca wrote: »

I dont know if there are any stats but I do know a school where there are three in a staff of 51.........one on leave, the other two returned to work last year after treatment.

So one is on leave and wont be going to work and the two that are recovered will be going back to work. Sounds reasonable and will be repeated numerous times the world over, so nothing speciial there then.

The ASTI rep makes it out that there are teachers on deaths door, in the middle of treatment for Cancer 'forced' back to school. Scaremongering at its finest.

Icyseanfitz · 25-08-2020 11:45AM

bladespin wrote: »

I'd say yes, according to the experts re-infection results in a much milder dose, for me it's starting to very much sound like a flu from there on.

Experts have very little data on reinfection and it's effects, so no one knows how bad of a viral dose can be gotten the second time.

meeeeh · 25-08-2020 11:51AM

amacca wrote: »

I think what most posters are getting at is it wont be schools in isolation....it will be a large contributing factor but its all the mixing going on

sort of like schools being a catalyst

on the last in the class thing....isnt that a bit of an apples and oranges thing?....are there not other factors at play there too?

the other education systems have a different school year, smaller class sizes ensured for the return, resources etc

some of those other countries also seem to have health services better equipped to deal with rise in cases

I was under the impression the limiting factor here was we are definitely last in class when it comes to ICU beds hence the initial need for our lockdown to be more draconian.....I dont think this has changed.

I come from a country that has similarly challenging health service and similar sized classes. They did start gradually but they were fully back by middle of May. The lock down was shorter and less restrictive. The difference in spring was better responsiveness and quicker testing. I think Irish capacity is much better now but they are still a bit behind in turn around time (same day there). Not every country had a good testing system like Germany and did they better than Ireland. I think the lockdown here was more draconian because we were slower closing down, we allowed travel to some events and the numbers in society were actually not picked up because of delays in test results. Not because our ICUs were at capacity

From experience in some other countries (my old primary school had a case of corona in spring and I think only class affected self isolated, I know my nephew who goes there didn't ) it seems schools can reopen normally as long as numbers in community can be controlled.

Sunday Sunday · 25-08-2020 11:51AM

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

What's the alternative? Living with it? Considering it is now known to reinfect that doesn't seem like a particularly good solution anymore.

We don't really have any other choice. Deal with cases and clusters as they arise, there is no "solution".

bladespin · 25-08-2020 11:53AM

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Experts have very little data on reinfection and it's effects, so no one knows how bad of a viral dose can be gotten the second time.

True but they have quite a lot of data compared to other novel diseases considering the numbers and rate of infection, the world's literally their petri dish at the moment

amacca · 25-08-2020 11:56AM

markodaly wrote: »

So one is on leave and wont be going to work and the two that are recovered will be going back to work. Sounds reasonable and will be repeated numerous times the world over, so nothing speciial there then.

The ASTI rep makes it out that there are teachers on deaths door, in the middle of treatment for Cancer 'forced' back to school. Scaremongering at its finest.

In the case of one of the ones back at work she looks a shell of her former self.....It wouldn't surprise me if she was on deaths door, but I suppose looks can be deceiving.

I dont know how she has been categorised but I cant help feeling concerned despite the fact I dont even know her that well.

vid36 · 25-08-2020 11:59AM

Sunday Sunday wrote: »

We don't really have any other choice. Deal with cases and clusters as they arise, there is no "solution".

We will know the results of the vaccines phase 3 trials by November.Most of the leading expert are optimistic and given that people such as Dr Fauci have had access to the results and data so far, I trust their judgement.
As for schools, they will be closed again, the only question is when. If South Korea with their very efficient testing and tracing system are having problems, then it is inevitable our system will get overwhelmed by November at the latest.

Icyseanfitz · 25-08-2020 12:00PM

Sunday Sunday wrote: »

We don't really have any other choice. Deal with cases and clusters as they arise, there is no "solution".

I have to disagree, given that billions being spent on covid-19 research and vaccinations at the moment a solution will be found, it will just take time, which we can decide to spend carefully to minimize deaths.

Instead we have decided to revert to the initial UK approach of herd immunity because it would take too much effort and work to setup a blended and safe school system for the next 1-2 years.

meeeeh · 25-08-2020 12:03PM

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

I have to disagree, given that billions being spent on covid-19 research and vaccinations at the moment a solution will be found, it will just take time, which we can decide to spend carefully to minimize deaths.

Instead we have decided to revert to the initial UK approach of herd immunity because it would take too much effort and work to setup a blended and safe school system for the next 1-2 years.

Oh stop with the herd immunity nonsense. Do you actually realize how far away from herd immunity we are? If you think reopening the schools will be enough for herd immunity you are deluded.

markodaly · 25-08-2020 12:11PM

amacca wrote: »

In the case of one of the ones back at work she looks a shell of her former self.....It wouldn't surprise me if she was on deaths door, but I suppose looks can be deceiving.

I dont know how she has been categorised but I cant help feeling concerned despite the fact I dont even know her that well.

Again, I dont want to comment on someone who I do not know, nor seen.

But, sick leave is actually rather generous for teachers and if one has recovered, they must get a medical certificate.
https://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/leave/sick-leave/

Besides, it does not take away from the irresponsible comments from the ASTI.

Icyseanfitz · 25-08-2020 12:15PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Oh stop with the herd immunity nonsense. Do you actually realize how far away from herd immunity we are? If you think reopening the schools will be enough for herd immunity you are deluded.

Yes I understand how far away from that we are, I however cannot fathom what else the current school approach is, all public health advice has been thrown to the side for 1/5th the population (not including their families) in a gamble to see what happens. Call me deluded, or whatever other condescending name you wish.

PCros · 25-08-2020 12:15PM

vid36 wrote: »

If South Korea with their very efficient testing and tracing system are having problems, then it is inevitable our system will get overwhelmed by November at the latest.

Need to compare like for like.

South Korea's population density is 7 times greater than Ireland

How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

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