Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

sydthebeat · 23-08-2020 11:04am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There was a penalty against us for side entry that wasn't a penalty and Stander got a turnover lying flat over the ruck. We definitely didn't play the ref at the breakdown and failed to adapt giving Stander free reign to pilfer the ball. Thought Stander was exceptional all day - my motm followed by Ringrose.

Dead right on the stander one, I could count 6 studs on each foot.

If you're referring to the Conan side entry, I think it was fair enough.

The healy one was weird. Fair enough the ruck had formed but by the time healy got down onto the ball all players were on the ground. The ref said "second bite" so maybe cian had to ruck through and let another leinster player pick it up.

salmocab · 23-08-2020 11:08am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In retrospect we we're relatively poor last night. With the significant injuries Munster picked up and the amount of training time they lost in the build up, we were quite lucky to come away with the win.

There was a period in the second half where we looked fully in control so it's disappointing that we opened the door for Munster to come back into the game.

After Toner intercepted, Ringrose put the ball right inside the Munster 5m line and you could see both sets of forwards barely jogging back - legs were gone.

Good blow out, but Munster get some continuity in the preceding two weeks and don't pick up as many injuries and I think we'd have coughed up a loss to be honest.

I don’t buy into the Munster continuity thing or the injuries, Munster played decent and seemed a bit more together than Leinster were but Leinster looked a bit more natural and able to turn things on. It’s an odd start/finish to the season and I wouldn’t read anything into either teams performance.
The injury thing happens too much to get caught up in what ifs, I believe in the butterfly effect if the two Munster lads didn’t go off it would have been a completely different game but that doesn’t mean they would have necessarily done better. When you go down that rabbit hole then you have to go to should there have been a yellow or refs missing penalties or whatever and it’s a waste of time.
It was actually a good game considering albeit error strewn. Some players have a knack of coming out from the cold at full tilt or close to it others will take a couple of games.

pickarooney · 23-08-2020 11:31am

Neil3030 wrote: »

With only one NIQ now in the entire squad, it would be class if Leinster could bring in a real superstar on the wing. Wonder if Daly on a season loan might be an option...

I mean we probably already have a shirt printed with that name and number which we won't be needing. Shame to waste it

KH25 · 23-08-2020 11:49am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Dead right on the stander one, I could count 6 studs on each foot.

If you're referring to the Conan side entry, I think it was fair enough.

The healy one was weird. Fair enough the ruck had formed but by the time healy got down onto the ball all players were on the ground. The ref said "second bite" so maybe cian had to ruck through and let another leinster player pick it up.

That Stander call was blatant and a very poor decision. Conan definitely came in from the side so that was fair. I also couldn’t understand the Healy one. It looked like the ball was there to be won?

Bridge93 · 23-08-2020 11:56am

My issue with the Healy one was he had hands on ball, stander threw himself on top of it off his feet knocking Healy off it. He then went back and picked it up again.

Maybe there was a ruck but it wasn’t obvious to me first time. Must watch it back

Clegg · 23-08-2020 12:37pm

I wonder what Cullen has in mind for the Ulster game. It's clear that the players who started against Munster need more game time to be ready for the knockouts, but this game will be the only chance to rest them between now and the Euro QF. Assuming we win the league SF.

Buer · 23-08-2020 12:51pm

I would think there will be a lot of rotation but a few guys will play next week who started last night. Baird, Doris moving to 8 and maybe give Kelleher a run with Toner.

We're fairly stretched in the back line so I'd expect one of Henshaw or Ringrose to remain alongside ROL. RK and Cian Kelleher into the back three.

I'd like to see more of Keenan but the run of games and need for RK to get match fit now might not be conducive to him playing much if at all before next season.

Guinness RFC · 23-08-2020 1:07pm

You’d have to think Ulster will go after our lineout if Kelleher starts. I’d be wary of starting him and having his confidence and possibly career shot to pieces in the space of two games.

On the lineout, I think there was no communication between thrower and jumper (or Healy who usually relays the calls). Hence before the ball was even thrown there was a breakdown in systems. Kelleher needs to compose himself and take his time even if the ref/opposition is rushing him.

If he doesn’t get a clear call communicated he is taking the result of the game and his own career into his hands. Then he needs to nail the timing of the throw. Another reason not to get rushed. He should do it like a kicker- 5 deep breaths then throw/jump. Now if he can at least show consistency in throwing technique and timing then other people are to blame if he hits his spot.

It is imperative he doesn’t get rushed or flustered or he can kiss his career goodbye.

CMcsporty · 23-08-2020 1:13pm

Kelleher throwing wasn’t the problem yesterday.
He’s plenty good enough.

Leinster lineout was disjointed and Munster were excellent at attacking it.

First game in 5 months!

sydthebeat · 23-08-2020 1:14pm

CMcsporty wrote: »

Kelleher throwing wasn’t the problem yesterday.
He’s plenty good enough.

Leinster lineout was disjointed and Munster were excellent at attacking it.

First game in 5 months!

With two line out callers who wouldn't be first choice (Ryan and toner would be)

CMcsporty · 23-08-2020 1:16pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

With two line out callers who wouldn't be first choice (Ryan and toner would be)

And it’s actually 6 months since Kelleher last played!

He should be starting v Italy

stephen_n · 23-08-2020 1:18pm

CMcsporty wrote: »

Kelleher throwing wasn’t the problem yesterday.
He’s plenty good enough.

Leinster lineout was disjointed and Munster were excellent at attacking it.

First game in 5 months!

Calling was definitely off but a couple of his throws were way too high though regardless of timing.

First game back, talk of it being a problem for his career is just plain ridiculous though.

The Lost Sheep · 23-08-2020 1:25pm

Guinness RFC wrote: »

You’d have to think Ulster will go after our lineout if Kelleher starts. I’d be wary of starting him and having his confidence and possibly career shot to pieces in the space of two games.

On the lineout, I think there was no communication between thrower and jumper (or Healy who usually relays the calls). Hence before the ball was even thrown there was a breakdown in systems. Kelleher needs to compose himself and take his time even if the ref/opposition is rushing him.

If he doesn’t get a clear call communicated he is taking the result of the game and his own career into his hands. Then he needs to nail the timing of the throw. Another reason not to get rushed. He should do it like a kicker- 5 deep breaths then throw/jump. Now if he can at least show consistency in throwing technique and timing then other people are to blame if he hits his spot.

It is imperative he doesn’t get rushed or flustered or he can kiss his career goodbye.

Going on about his career is a bit ott.
He was up against a very strong defensive lineout.

CMcsporty wrote: »

And it’s actually 6 months since Kelleher last played!

He should be starting v Italy

Its 5/6 months since all played a game. He made few mistakes. No he shouldnt start against Italy.

CMcsporty · 23-08-2020 1:28pm

Why should he not start then?

Because of all the excellent options ahead of him?

sydthebeat · 23-08-2020 1:32pm

He's our best open field hooker currently.

Get his set piece sorted and he definitely should be starting against Italy.

Henderson calling, alongside kleyn, would be fine for Italy. They haven't exactly got a defensive lineout to fear

stephen_n · 23-08-2020 1:36pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

He's our best open field hooker currently.

Get his set piece sorted and he definitely should be starting against Italy.

Henderson calling, alongside kleyn, would be fine for Italy. They haven't exactly got a defensive lineout to fear

Sean Cronin might disagree.

Clegg · 23-08-2020 1:36pm

We'll definitely see some rotation. Furlong needs some minutes before the SF so hopefully he's ready for next week. Some with Rob Kearney and Ruddock.

Is there any chance Leavy might feature? By the sounds of it Leinster are being very cautious with him so I guess he's probably not taking part until next season. Starting backrow should be Ruddock, Connors and Deegan.

Kelleher should start again. Give him a chance to iron out the kinks from the Munster game. Start Toner too and give him a good caller and target.

Richie_Rich89 · 23-08-2020 1:42pm

Good result. Edinburgh can't be caught now, I believe, so it's Munster or the Scarlets in the semi final in two weeks' time. The dynamics around the Connacht-Munster game are interesting. The IRFU/Nucifora won't want Munster to lose and potentially miss out on the semis. Friend is very much a company man. Will he be ordered to send out a weakened team for this clash?

Clegg · 23-08-2020 1:43pm

Also, fair play to Jack Conan. First game in almost a year and played quite well. Looked very tired in the second half which is understandable.

CMcsporty · 23-08-2020 2:13pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Sean Cronin might disagree.

I think Cronin is done at international level.

Kelleher is already the best open field hooker. 22 years old. Head on his shoulders.
He should be straight in v Italy.

Starting hooker for one of the best sides in Europe.
Will be packing down with an all Leinster front row.
Will be throwing to at least 1 Leinster jumpers.
Stronger than other options.
Better turnover threat than other options.
Better off-loader than any other options.

No idea about scrummaging ability. Played 14 senior games? I’m sure he’s going to improve.

Ireland side in general is also desperately in need of fresh blood.
He’s a very safe bet.

Clegg · 23-08-2020 2:28pm

Rewatched last nights game. I posted in the match thread that I felt the score line flattered Munster a bit. A few disagreed with me, err, vehemently but on second watch I'm utterly convinced we kept them in the game.

We blew so many attacking lineouts on halfway/Munsters 10 metre line. We had very little attacking platform all game because of that. And we blew a try through indiscipline on Munsters line after that lovely Sexton chip though early in the second half.

Guinness RFC · 23-08-2020 2:31pm

There’s no way Kelleher will start over Herring for Italy. Farrell is conservative and has shown that by only selecting Doris and reverting to our old back row against England when he got injured. I think it was the right decision Stander and O Mahoney still the best options even if they don’t gel well at international level.

But Herring although he offers less in the loose offers more at lineout time. It is imperative someone hopefully Cullen sits Kelleher down and addresses the mental side of his throwing. Reassurance would go a long way as I think he is feeling pressure and it is showing in the timing of his throws which are way off the jumper.

Ultimately, he needs to feel he has time to get it right and rushing him into the Ulster and Italy game right now might not be the best option when looking at the need for him to have a lengthy career. It could bring his progression to a thundering halt and he might be benched for the next few months if he falls to pieces against eithe Ulster or Italy.

stephen_n · 23-08-2020 2:38pm

CMcsporty wrote: »

I think Cronin is done at international level.

Kelleher is already the best open field hooker. 22 years old. Head on his shoulders.
He should be straight in v Italy.

Starting hooker for one of the best sides in Europe.
Will be packing down with an all Leinster front row.
Will be throwing to at least 1 Leinster jumpers.
Stronger than other options.
Better turnover threat than other options.
Better off-loader than any other options.

No idea about scrummaging ability. Played 14 senior games? I’m sure he’s going to improve.

Ireland side in general is also desperately in need of fresh blood.
He’s a very safe bet.

That was a reference to the Italy game which effectively ended his international career. I think he may even struggle to stay ahead of Tracy much longer.

23-08-2020 2:52pm

Guinness RFC wrote: »

There’s no way Kelleher will start over Herring for Italy.

You are reading far too much into last nights game and ignoring the obvious context of this being the first match in nearly half a year.

We scored not one, but two tries from our lineout.

Herring may well start ahead of Kelleher, I guess we'll have to see how he gets on today. Suggesting that Farrell is conservative with exactly three match sheets to his name is a bit silly though.

AbusesToilets · 23-08-2020 2:53pm

I was pretty happy with the attacking play in the match. The difference between Leinster and Munster was night and day. Players running into space, forwards being able to draw and pass. I thought we could've kicked more effectively, our garryowens and box kicks weren't great, and I'd like to see more of the offensive grubbers.

DeHood123 · 23-08-2020 5:24pm

CMcsporty wrote: »

I think Cronin is done at international level.

Kelleher is already the best open field hooker. 22 years old. Head on his shoulders.
He should be straight in v Italy.

Starting hooker for one of the best sides in Europe.
Will be packing down with an all Leinster front row.
Will be throwing to at least 1 Leinster jumpers.
Stronger than other options.
Better turnover threat than other options.
Better off-loader than any other options.

No idea about scrummaging ability. Played 14 senior games? I’m sure he’s going to improve.

Ireland side in general is also desperately in need of fresh blood.
He’s a very safe bet.

Im sorry but scoring a few try’s versus dragons and ospreys 3rds team last year during the World Cup doesn’t jettison Kelleher into starting role for Ireland

From what I’ve seen he’s been incredible flaky throwing
Had a few over throws for Ireland off the bench during 6 nations
Very poor last night from touch
All the hookers don’t get free passes but he seems to

Nowhere near the finished product
People need to calm down on him

DeHood123 · 23-08-2020 5:31pm

CMcsporty wrote: »

Kelleher throwing wasn’t the problem yesterday.
He’s plenty good enough.

Leinster lineout was disjointed and Munster were excellent at attacking it.

First game in 5 months!

He over threw 2 and clearly under threw one
His throwing was poor, call a spade a spade

Yes one or 2 dodgy calls but we lost 5 lineouts and he’s to shoulder blame like all hookers do

kingofthekong · 23-08-2020 5:32pm

Most worrying thing is Leinsters inability to slow opposition ball down...it’s all well and good Will Connors making 20 tackles in 10 seconds but it’s all wasted effort when you could’ve just slowed the ruck ball down and made one tackle in that time. They need more threats to opposition ball at ruck time , Cj single handedly shat on our entire pack at ruck time

Buer · 23-08-2020 5:45pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

Most worrying thing is Leinsters inability to slow opposition ball down...it’s all well and good Will Connors making 20 tackles in 10 seconds but it’s all wasted effort when you could’ve just slowed the ruck ball down and made one tackle in that time. They need more threats to opposition ball at ruck time , Cj single handedly shat on our entire pack at ruck time

We were getting hammered by the referee at the breakdown. There was a clear approach for us not to contest in those closing stages. I don't think that was coincidence. Cullen and Sexton both commented on the rucks after the match.

It was a 2 point game for about the last ten minutes. Let them have the ball and trust your line speed.

I'm surprised that there was no movement to look at a drop goal from Munster to give them the win. JJH was taking it to the line and throwing an inside pass when intercepted so it wasn't near his mind either.

antietam1 · 23-08-2020 7:43pm

KH25 wrote: »

That Stander call was blatant and a very poor decision. Conan definitely came in from the side so that was fair. I also couldn’t understand the Healy one. It looked like the ball was there to be won?

Did Healy drop it and have another go, couldn't quite hear the ref.

errlloyd · 24-08-2020 8:50am

Clegg wrote: »

Rewatched last nights game. I posted in the match thread that I felt the score line flattered Munster a bit. A few disagreed with me, err, vehemently but on second watch I'm utterly convinced we kept them in the game.

They had better possession and territory. Driven by better set-piece and much better ruck efficiency. We gave away nearly twice as many penalties.

The only place we really beat them was on clean breaks, as their centres didn't really function in defense.

Kinda match stats that paint a picture of a sobering loss, but we won.

Former Former · 24-08-2020 8:56am

errlloyd wrote: »

They had better possession and territory. Driven by better set-piece and much better ruck efficiency. We gave away nearly twice as many penalties.

The only place we really beat them was on clean breaks, as their centres didn't really function in defense.

Kinda match stats that paint a picture of a sobering loss, but we won.

and the scoreboard...

I thought we were better in the scrum, but considering it was Loughman and Archer against Healy and Porter, that's no great surprise.
The breakdown was a mystery to me, new interpretations will take some getting to used to but Munster definitely adapted quicker.
The only really bad part of the set-piece was the lineout, but a relatively inexperienced hooker and a new second-row, not entirely unexpected.

molloyjh · 24-08-2020 9:32am

I felt that Munster played a number of elements far better than Leinster. They were clearly better at the ruck and their kicking game was top quality. But I also felt we showed far more incision and were a lot more clinical, despite a good few unforced errors. Our scrum was a distance better, their line out was a distance better. But at the end of the day the fact that we were more incisive and clinical proved decisive.

It was a quality game given the break. The SF should be a cracker.

VANG1 · 24-08-2020 10:32am

One thing for sure is that Munster needed the win more. Leinster will be much better next time from touch. The back 3 will be schooled on defending the high kicks. Lowe was rusty, he will be much better. We should not read to much into first game, normally would have 3 or 4 warm up games.

arsebiscuits1 · 24-08-2020 12:47pm

Former Former wrote: »

and the scoreboard...

I thought we were better in the scrum, but considering it was Loughman and Archer against Healy and Porter, that's no great surprise.
The breakdown was a mystery to me, new interpretations will take some getting to used to but Munster definitely adapted quicker.
The only really bad part of the set-piece was the lineout, but a relatively inexperienced hooker and a new second-row, not entirely unexpected.

Part of their adapting quicker was plain ol getting away with it too though.

Leinster have had more than their fair share of it in the past so I appreciate the swings and roundabouts of it all.

But to ping our guys for sealing off an attacking ruck 5m from their line but not penalise them for the same (multiple occasions) in the lead up to their first try just has that element of luck about it.

I'm not too worried about the breakdown going forward. But we will need to keep a closer eye on CJ who was just poaching everything at will. Was actually the best game he's has against Leinster in a long while. We normally tend to have his number.

I did enjoy Sexton just bullishly putting the shoulder in time and again on him and fronting up in the tackle. Was pleasing to watch.

EDIT: and just to add this. Ultimate rugby put up CJs stats and he had 16 carries for 9 meters. CJ commented on the post joking he is going nowhere fast which was pleasing to see the banter. But also shows Sextons performance as I counted at least 5 of CJs carries that were at Sexton

Scottmactom · 24-08-2020 12:48pm

Murray K

Leinster confirm Cian Healy, Josh van der Flier and Johnny Sexton all available if needed against Ulster, having taken knocks versus Munster.

Tadhg Furlong [back] and Rhys Ruddock [quad] are possibles.

Dan Leavy won't be available this weekend as his recovery continues.

Dave Kearney's hamstring injury "requires further assessment this week."

Leinster expected to make wholesale changes for the Ulster game.

Vakh Abdaladze has had surgery on his back and will be further assessed in the coming weeks.

Fingers crossed that the tighthead prop can finally get over this longstanding issue.

Clegg · 24-08-2020 1:01pm

I think we're better off keeping Ruddock and Furlong out of the the side if they aren't 100%. You'd rather they have some game time going into the semi final but better to be safe.

Leinster have come out of the weekend in far better shape than Munster. Snyman and Kilcoyne require MRI scans and Kleyn a deep imaging scan in his neck. The latter seem to have come out the worst of all the provinces for injuries.

Buer · 24-08-2020 1:24pm

17 months down the line and Leavy still isn't back in full training.

I'm really struggling to believe he's going to be the same player after such a cataclysmic injury.

If he's not going to be involved this weekend, I'm not sure we'll see him at all in this campaign. Better to let him ease back in with some Pro14 matches rather than knock out intensity immediately.

thomond2006 · 24-08-2020 1:28pm

Buer wrote: »

17 months down the line and Leavy still isn't back in full training.

I'm really struggling to believe he's going to be the same player after such a cataclysmic injury.

If he's not going to be involved this weekend, I'm not sure we'll see him at all in this campaign. Better to let him ease back in with some Pro14 matches rather than knock out intensity immediately.

Leavy can feature in the A interpros if available.

Scottmactom · 25-08-2020 6:49am

rumoured Leinster side for Ulster game:

1. Ed Byrne(26)
2. Sean Cronin(34)
3. Tadhg Furlong(27)
4. Ross Molony(26)
5. Devin Toner(34)
6. Josh Murphy(25)
7. Will Connors(24)
8. Max Deegan(23)
9. Jamison Gibson Park(28)
10. Ross Byrne(25)
11. Cian Kelleher(26)
12. Ciaran Frawley(22)
13. Rory O'Loughlin(26)
14. Hugo Keenan(24)
15. Rob Kearney(34)

25-08-2020 6:57am

So that's 15 changes I think.

Scottmactom · 25-08-2020 6:59am

Wesley Hissing Devil wrote: »

So that's 15 changes I think.

Yep 7 of the bench from Munster start: Ed, Cronin, Toner, Deegan, Connors, JGP, RB.

Buer · 25-08-2020 7:54am

Not too surprising but I did think they might go for a little more continuity for a couple of areas.

It will be interesting to see what team Ulster put out. They'll have an eye on Edinburgh but they also need to shake off last weekend. I can see a handful of changes for them. Madigan going to start, I'd guess with AB at 9.

25-08-2020 8:02am

Hope Kelleher / Keenan go well. Back three definitely an area where we're a bit sparse.

Scottmactom · 25-08-2020 8:09am

3 hamstring injuries for leinster backs... issue with s&c?

Former Former · 25-08-2020 8:52am

Scottmactom wrote: »

3 hamstring injuries for leinster backs... issue with s&c?

Byrne did his during lockdown.

Kearney did his going full-tilt in a match for the first time in six months.

McFadden has had recurring and serious hamstring issues for two years.

So, no.

Scottmactom · 25-08-2020 8:57am

Former Former wrote: »

Byrne did his during lockdown.

Kearney did his going full-tilt in a match for the first time in six months.

McFadden has had recurring and serious hamstring issues for two years.

So, no.

McFadden's is his calf.

Conor O'Brien is the other and I think you are quick to dismiss the possibility.

4 leg soft tissue injuries in the squad.

Buer · 25-08-2020 9:11am

Wasn't COB a long standing issue that required correction? They wanted to do it months ago but couldn't due to non essential procedures being postponed.

ionadnapokot · 25-08-2020 11:47am

Scottmactom wrote: »

Him being the player he was pre-injury was always going to be a big ask, even getting back to a position he can play seems a huge achievement.. thanks Wiehahn Herbst

Exactly. It would be sufficient just to see him back pain free & running again.
No way anyone would be putting expectations on him in Leinster. Im sure its very much week by week and hopefully a game by game recovery for him over the next 3-4 months.

Not fair to be blaming the Ulster players for the injury.
Stupidly WR & the referees were not enforcing the laws for years. Allowing people to be smashed out of the way was a recipe for disaster.

Squidgy Black · 25-08-2020 12:34pm

Scottmactom wrote: »

Herbst was released immediately following the game.. hardly a coincedence.

There was rumours of Herbst leaving for months before the game, linked to the Bulls. As early as January of that year.

Some stretch to say he was released by Ulster because of that incident and somehow walked into a Bulls contract immediately.

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

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