DART+ (DART Expansion)

AngryLips wrote: »

Isn't that the old North Wall train station? Surely they could use that instead of building a new one :pac:

Yes, that’s what has been proposed, with another exit in the park space next the Luas stop.

roadmaster wrote: »

Restored correctly that could look really well as a rail station with the modern office blocks all around it

Yep, best way to preserve part of the city's heritage.

Be great to see.

roadmaster wrote: »

Restored correctly that could look really well as a rail station with the modern office blocks all around it

That's what they're building currently isn't it?

CatInABox wrote: »

No, it's the one next door to this, the red brick that you can see cut off on the left of this image. The one being redeveloped right now is the British Rail Hotel

See Archiseek here.

Here's the hotel as well, here.

It would be great if they could restore the old ticket entry hall to it's former glory with three access doors and a canopy. The exit being on the NE side, would have the perfect angle for those continuing on along the new pedestrian bridge to GCD.

SeanW wrote: »

So the real question is what is planned for railway services in Ireland? If there's no plan to electrify intercity services, then the DART should simply be expanded with 1500V DC. On the other hand, if there are plans to electrify long distance service, there could be a case for making some or all of the network 25kV AC at 50hz.

Yes but thats not really a question for DART+ though. Retaining the existing DART 1500V DC makes it cheaper and less disruptive to expand the existing system rather than replacing, as well as the practical benefits for regular stopping services as you described.

Under DART+ we should get: Kildare line to have 2 x 1500V DC tracks for DART and 2 x non-electrified tracks for longer distant services which could become 25kV AC in future; Maynooth line becomes 1500V DC, the tracks further out will likely remain un-electrified for a long time, and even when/if that happens (other technologies may exist by then) it might make more sense to create a new link from west of Maynooth to the Kildare line for AC trains; the Northern Line will remain as is with 1500V DC expanded north, electrification all the way to Belfast is decades away and alternative new track will be needed by then anyway which could be AC.

It is more a question for Cork urban/suburban rail electrification. Should the Cork system be 25kV AC so that intercity trains can also use it from Mallow south? The extra weight on Cork DART-style trains is probably less of an issue than the future cost of using DC on the whole Dublin - Cork route. Is dual power an option, either for the tracks or the trains?

AngryLips wrote: »

It's a shame they're not looking at Dart+ to Kilcock because that's very much a suburb of Dublin these days. It'll become the Greystones of this decade

Presumably because the line becomes single track after Maynooth and would be part of a larger development to add a 2nd track line?

I'd imagine if they can make it out to Maynooth, a spur to Kilcock will be on the cards at some stage similar to how the Greystones extension in 2001 was done (I'm aware that is also single track but to add an extra line to that is a much bigger project due to the cliff face).

Edit: I did just see that the short hop zone now extends out to Kilcock actually.

AngryLips wrote: »

I was down that way yesterday and to be honest, there's no way to fit a platform between the old station building and the luas tracks., like how would they deal with the luas tracks intersecting with the train line? More probable is that they'd terminate the line just before the luas tracks - though it looks like there something being built there.





Almost as big a project as four-tracking the line into Heuston that's within scope of the current project.

Maybe i have misunderstood big time but would the platform not be underground especially if DU happens

That was my impression, a station box would be built there (Luas temporarily terminating further back during construction) tunnels going off for DU prepared, and then the old station hopefully reopened as a surface entrance, and hopefully a bit of commercial business in it, cafes etc.

AngryLips wrote: »

I was down that way yesterday and to be honest, there's no way to fit a platform between the old station building and the luas tracks., like how would they deal with the luas tracks intersecting with the train line? More probable is that they'd terminate the line just before the luas tracks - though it looks like there something being built there.

Spencer Dock is not going to be an above ground station. It will be an underground one. Therefore that constraint doesn't matter. Here is the planned exit next the Luas as part of the original plans, I am saying the other exit should incorporate the old station building.

LXFlyer wrote: »

The idea from the NTA is for the current Docklands station to be moved 500m to the east and south to be adjacent to Spencer Dock LUAS stop.

It was suggested that it would extend through the archways of the bridge under Sheriff Street Upper, using the land currently used for access to the NTA coach parking facilities, and the station be on Mayor Street Upper.

It would still be an overground station. Such a location would make a connection to the line via Drumcondra far easier as well as the existing connection along the Royal Canal.

Again, though, I'd point out that we have no detailed plans for any of this as yet.

As part of DART Underground it was planned to use the old station building on the Quays as an entrance to a separate underground station from this one. But as we know DART Underground is on hold.

It would make no sense at all to build an above ground station at Spencer Dock now. It would only serve to inhibit implementation of U-DART at a later date.

LXFlyer wrote: »

Sorry, but I do think that you are wrong on this and conflating two different plans.

This station is as I understand it, to be overground. It is a terminal station for trains coming from the Drumcondra and from the line along the Royal Canal. Nothing more than that.

It has nothing to do with DART Underground which is completely different and would be see trains going underground as they come from the Northern Line at East Wall Junction.

Here is the original story on this plan from 2018:
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irelands-newest-train-station-could-move-because-of-major-shortfall-in-passengers-36916197.html

I wasn't saying you were wrong - I was saying it doesn't make sense. It will surely be used as a reason not to built Dart Underground, or Dart Undergrounds station will need to be built elsewhere, so we'll end up with two new stations in the area instead of one.

ncounties wrote: »

I wasn't saying you were wrong - I was saying it doesn't make sense. It will surely be used as a reason not to built Dart Underground, or Dart Undergrounds station will need to be built elsewhere, so we'll end up with two new stations in the area instead of one.

I read your previous post as saying categorically that it would not be above ground. If I am misreading your reference to Spencer Dock, then apologies.

I think that to be clear, we should refer to this as a relocated Docklands Station, rather than the Spencer Dock Station proposed as part of DART Underground, as they are two separate plans.

There has been absolutely no suggestion anywhere through the media or "informed sources" that I can find that this relocated Docklands station would be underground. I have no reason to believe that it will be, as an underground station would involve spending a lot more money than what is included in this project.

And yes, you could certainly end up with an overground terminal station near any through DART Underground station.

LXFlyer wrote: »

I read your previous post as saying categorically that it would not be above ground. If I am misreading your reference to Spencer Dock, then apologies.

I think that to be clear, we should refer to this as a relocated Docklands Station, rather than the Spencer Dock Station proposed as part of DART Underground, as they are two separate plans.

There has been absolutely no suggestion anywhere through the media or "informed sources" that I can find that this relocated Docklands station would be underground. I have no reason to believe that it will be, as an underground station would involve spending a lot more money than what is included in this project.

And yes, you could certainly end up with an overground terminal station near any through DART Underground station.

I have never personally been on about the relocated station, someone else must have brought that up. Still think it's pointless. My post below from two days ago, at the start of this extended conversation:

ncounties wrote: »

As part of U-DART, the station was to be underground roughly where the Europcar Rental place is, with the historic building on the riverfront forming the station. A pedestrian bridge would then link it with GCD. The latter has now been moved to the bottom of New Wapping Street as the piling would interfere with the tunnelling project.

LXFlyer wrote: »

Sheriff Street is on a bridge to be fair - the ground level is that where the railways have always been.

That's the level at which I'd expect the station to be, with as you say, below the bridge, with minimal excavation works.

Remember that the railway previously was under the bridge at this location.

A DART Underground station would be significantly below this level already in a tunnel.

I feel like there's a bit of a quibble over semantics here, I think in modern times with a unified operator the concept of two stations sitting beside each other for different lines is a bit far fetched, I can't see justification for it unless DU is just permanently consigned to the dustbin of ideas by CIE/TII/IE and planners.

A single station at spencer dock makes the most sense, potentially with a 'sub-ground' station to start (Under the luas tracks and access up to the quays and the Luas.), and a full underground section when DU eventually happens.

(Station box for this and ancillaries could be done as part of the initial build)