CHAdeMO v CCS

liamog · 30-07-2020 04:50PM

Zenith74 wrote: »

So changing the battery doesn't matter, the exterior doesn't matter, the improvements to the inverter and PDM don't matter, the self-driving/single-pedal-driving/other-new-tech don't matter, the changes to the motor don't matter.

I'm a bit stumped here chaps, there's not much left in there that hasn't changed. I mean I know the buttons for putting the windows up and down are the same, is that what you're taking issue with?

If you upgrade the gas boiler in your home, replace the Windows, and add a Nest thermostat, is it a fundamentally different house? This is effectively the extant of the changes in the updated Leaf.

Cars are usually engineered to be manufactured for between 6 and 8 years. There is usually a styling update to account for new fashions called a mid cycle refresh. The Leaf is a bit long in the tooth as it's now approaching ten years old and should be updated with new manufacturing techniques and capabilities.

Zenith74 · 30-07-2020 05:14PM

liamog wrote: »

If you upgrade the gas boiler in your home, replace the Windows, and add a Nest thermostat, is it a fundamentally different house?

No but my point is a standard is being set that is not applied to other cars, eg. the VW Golf. The 2019 Leaf is no more relying on the underpinnings of it's 2010 predecessor than the VW Golf or most other cars in the market, to say Nissan are doing something out of the ordinary or they are trying to milk it for the last dollar any more than another manufacturer is wrong.

liamog · 30-07-2020 05:33PM

Zenith74 wrote: »

No but my point is a standard is being set that is not applied to other cars, eg. the VW Golf. The 2019 Leaf is no more relying on the underpinnings of it's 2010 predecessor than the VW Golf or most other cars in the market, to say Nissan are doing something out of the ordinary or they are trying to milk it for the last dollar any more than another manufacturer is wrong.

That's the point, other cars are updated under the body on 6 to 8 yearly cycle. The Golf Mk4 lasted between 97 and 05, the Mk5 was released on the PQ35 platform in 2006, then refreshed on the same platform in 2008 as the Mk6. The Mk7 golf switched to the the MQB platform in 2012, was refreshed as the Mk7.5 in 2016, and finally the Mk8 on an updated version of the MQB in 2019.

The equivalent in the Leaf is the change the Golf went through between the Mk7 and the Mk7.5. It's a cosmetic change on the surface and interior, but they are still fundamentally the same car underneath.

Zenith74 · 30-07-2020 07:19PM

liamog wrote: »

That's the point, other cars are updated under the body on 6 to 8 yearly cycle. The Golf Mk4 lasted between 97 and 05, the Mk5 was released on the PQ35 platform in 2006, then refreshed on the same platform in 2008 as the Mk6. The Mk7 golf switched to the the MQB platform in 2012, was refreshed as the Mk7.5 in 2016, and finally the Mk8 on an updated version of the MQB in 2019.

The equivalent in the Leaf is the change the Golf went through between the Mk7 and the Mk7.5. It's a cosmetic change on the surface and interior, but they are still fundamentally the same car underneath.

Ah I see, Nissan need to do some more work in their marketing department, get some more acronyms in there to demarc their generations! Definitely missing a trick there...

liamog · 30-07-2020 07:43PM

Zenith74 wrote: »

Ah I see, Nissan need to do some more work in their marketing department, get some more acronyms in there to demarc their generations! Definitely missing a trick there...

They'd have to start iterating on their vehicle first, you know like everyone else does, including Nissan engineers on other Nissan models.

unkel · 31-07-2020 12:25PM

liamog wrote: »

If you upgrade the gas boiler in your home, replace the Windows, and add a Nest thermostat, is it a fundamentally different house? This is effectively the extant of the changes in the updated Leaf.

Except they left the old inefficient gas boiler, they left the single glaze windows, they didn't insulate the attic, in fact they didn't change anything, apart from yeah they added a Nest thermostat (pro pilot)

Zenith74 · 31-07-2020 09:46PM

liamog wrote: »

They'd have to start iterating on their vehicle first, you know like everyone else does, including Nissan engineers on other Nissan models.

But liamog there’s barely a single component that hasn’t been iterated in the Leaf. We might not be happy with the iterations sure, I’m just countering the narrative that nothing has changed because it is objectively false. I mentioned electric window controls previously tongue in cheek, but honestly those are the kinds of trivial things that are still the same as in earlier models. Batteries, motors, inverters, BMS, PDM, AC unit, infotainment system, consoles, safety systems, body, interior, driver assists, remote control app have all been ‘iterated’.

Maybe we’re just wasting each other’s time here, in summary I agree they could do a lot better.

liamog · 01-08-2020 12:21PM

Zenith74 wrote: »

But liamog there’s barely a single component that hasn’t been iterated in the Leaf. We might not be happy with the iterations sure, I’m just countering the narrative that nothing has changed because it is objectively false. I mentioned electric window controls previously tongue in cheek, but honestly those are the kinds of trivial things that are still the same as in earlier models. Batteries, motors, inverters, BMS, PDM, AC unit, infotainment system, consoles, safety systems, body, interior, driver assists, remote control app have all been ‘iterated’.

Maybe we’re just wasting each other’s time here, in summary I agree they could do a lot better.

It's clear you have no understanding of the engineering processes that go into the development of cars, the e-Up! available available in 2020 in the UK, is fundamentally the same car as the petrol Up! that started production in 2011, same as the Mii, and Citigo.

I'm not sure what your purpose is in denying that Nissan have waited until 2020 (with the Ariya) to invest in new engineering for EVs. The Leaf platform is 10 years old, which is quite an old platform by automotive engineering standards. This causes problems, such as the lack of ability to add thermal battery control.

The Ariya, would have started development around 2018 to hit its 2021 release, this shows that even Nissan realised they needed a new platform to account for new requirements in BEVs.

Zenith74 · 01-08-2020 01:04PM

liamog wrote: »

It's clear you have no understanding of the engineering processes that go into the development of cars, the e-Up! available available in 2020 in the UK, is fundamentally the same car as the petrol Up! that started production in 2011, same as the Mii, and Citigo.

I'm not sure what your purpose is in denying that Nissan have waited until 2020 (with the Ariya) to invest in new engineering for EVs. The Leaf platform is 10 years old, which is quite an old platform by automotive engineering standards. This causes problems, such as the lack of ability to add thermal battery control.

The Ariya, would have started development around 2018 to hit its 2021 release, this shows that even Nissan realised they needed a new platform to account for new requirements in BEVs.

If there is anybody on this board that has an understanding of the engineering processes that go into developing cars I’d be quite surprised, we’re mostly a group of armchair EV ‘experts’ let’s be honest. Let’s not patronise each other by claiming otherwise.

My only purpose is to bring some objectivity to what I see as a clear bias on here against the Leaf. Again not saying the Leaf is perfect, that Nissan could not have done more, that there are not better EVs out there etc. Just pointing out that to say the 2018 Leaf is the same car as the 2011 with no iteration is wrong down to almost every component in the car.

liamog · 01-08-2020 01:23PM

Ok, so you don't actually have a problem with the Leaf being a 2011 car in a pretty shell, you just don't want people to realise it, in some strange kind of defence of the car?
Denying the truth doesn't change the situation. The I3 and Zoe are also fundamentally the same car as their first iterations, just as the Ioniq 38kWh, is the same as the Ioniq 28kWh.

The bias against the Leaf is because of the decisions they made (or rather the investments they didn't make) when they released the 40kWh version.
They should have implemented battery thermal management but didn't because it would of required expensive changes to the platform.

My personal opinion, is that they should have also implemented CCS at the same time as the type 2 switchover, imagine if the Leaf 40 had come with a CHAdeMO and CCS connector in Europe.

Zenith74 · 01-08-2020 03:07PM

liamog wrote: »

Ok, so you don't actually have a problem with the Leaf being a 2011 car in a pretty shell, you just don't want people to realise it, in some strange kind of defence of the car?.

I’m not convinced you’re actually reading what I’m posting, so let’s park this here.

Laviski · 01-08-2020 03:45PM

Zenith74 wrote: »

I’m not convinced you’re actually reading what I’m posting, so let’s park this here.

Yup wasting your time, majority have very bias anti leaf sentiment on here.

Yes they could have done better by battery by having active cooling. If they did then yes they could have CCS adapters. But they didn't. Was aware of this before I got mine and not a game changer for what I need the car to do.

I have only use chademo three times so far in last 3 months, two of which were same day. Not a major problem as some here make out. I got where I needed to be and back in the time I expected with no overheating or anything close to it.

On the cheaper end of the scale 40 leaf still has its place as it has other things going for it than others do, that will certainly change next year as more choice comes on stream. I defo think anyone going for the 60kw should defo consider other cars but the 40kw has its place.

Guess as the years go by and stop at these new 150v esb charge point I'd be glad the chademo spot will be available even for how rarely I would use it.

innrain · 01-08-2020 05:54PM

I don't known why you see a Leaf bashing. I see more a Nissan one. Maybe what others are saying will have a greater impact.
Here is a positive review, written in 2018, but it says the same things.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/first-impressions/2018-nissan-leaf-first-drive.html
"New Skin, Familiar Bones

The 2018 model certainly looks like a much different car inside and out, yet it retains much of the existing Leaf platform under the skin. The Leaf's fundamental floorpan, steering and suspension geometry are intact, albeit with revised tuning."

While some appeciate the familiarity the majority feels let down by Nissan by not bringing any major innovation until now, instead squeezing as much as possible from the old one. The first wave of Leaf owners were technically minded and they felt frustrated by this.

Zenith74 · 01-08-2020 07:05PM

innrain wrote: »

I don't known why you see a Leaf bashing. I see more a Nissan one. Maybe what others are saying will have a greater impact.
Here is a positive review, written in 2018, but it says the same things.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/first-impressions/2018-nissan-leaf-first-drive.html
"New Skin, Familiar Bones

The 2018 model certainly looks like a much different car inside and out, yet it retains much of the existing Leaf platform under the skin. The Leaf's fundamental floorpan, steering and suspension geometry are intact, albeit with revised tuning."

I mean it's worth pointing out that the "New Skin, Familiar Bones" is in reference to the floorpan, steering and suspension, not all of the various electrical components that have been discussed further up in this thread as supposedly needing iteration. In fact on the whole car the article says
"With its improved driving dynamics, longer range and additional poke, the 2018 Nissan Leaf is a comprehensively improved car. That it is no more expensive than its predecessor is a pleasantly unusual bonus." which has kind been my point all along.

Laviski · 01-08-2020 10:31PM

if the leaf stayed with he original design would have steered well clear. The new design is what it should have been all along, plus the base versionnow comes with alot of features as standard, don't see value in premium for the type of car that it is.

anyways back on topic.
Chademo will be around for at least 10/15 years, that even if there were no new cars with that in Europe any longer (which isn't going to happen until leaf is revamped again or discontinued), there is a lot of inventory out there with Chademo and will be catered for, at least from esb ecars. the chills for CCS user's must be spiking. To think otherwise would be foolish.

the repeated same statements is pointless.

liamog · 02-08-2020 11:51AM

I'll update the Google Sheet with the updated numbers from beepbeep when they are available tomorrow.
The likelihood is that the current number of CHAdeMO chargers is enough to serve current and future demand.

innrain · 04-08-2020 10:17AM

looking at the stats for new car registration for July. Leaf down to 106 from 293 in July 2019. Would be safe to assume that the rest of 650+ new EVs maybe with he exception of twizy are CCS?

liamog · 04-08-2020 10:30AM

ELM327 · 04-08-2020 10:50AM

The Teslas are CCS. All Teslas sold since 2019 are natively sold with CCS.

liamog · 04-08-2020 11:11AM

I don't have a mechanism to separate the used and new models, as beep-beep registers used cars in the month they were imported. The numbers are so low it doesn't make a difference

Laviski · 04-08-2020 12:02PM

do you have totals of all electric cars to date by model?
we are somewhere around the 10k mark?

innrain · 04-08-2020 12:09PM

Nice data grab.
We have a bit less thank 11.7 k EVs in total, from which nearly 7k were sold in the last 19 months. From these 4k are CCS and 2k Chademo. From the 2k Chademo units, a quarter (510) are used imports while CCS used stands at 128 units. We already see a 2:1 ratio which I believe with the introduction of ID3 would only go up.

liamog · 04-08-2020 12:31PM

It's from beepbeep, so is recorded registrations new and used. Some of the cars in the number may be off the road due to accidents or exports.

Laviski · 04-08-2020 01:01PM

innrain wrote: »

Nice data grab.
We have a bit less thank 11.7 k EVs in total, from which nearly 7k were sold in the last 19 months. From these 4k are CCS and 2k Chademo. From the 2k Chademo units, a quarter (510) are used imports while CCS used stands at 128 units. We already see a 2:1 ratio which I believe with the introduction of ID3 would only go up.

how did you come up with the 11.7 k ?
from looking at the data going back through the years to 2009 there is only 8.5k electric
(filters are "total new registrations" and engine type "electric")

are you including hybrids?

electric only totals would be.
*table updated

Make Model TotalUnits Total&Units
NISSAN LEAF 3764 40%
HYUNDAI KONA 1483 16%
HYUNDAI IONIQ 641 7%
TESLA MODEL 3 636 7%
RENAULT ZOE 629 7%
VOLKSWAGEN E GOLF 494 5%
KIA NIRO 310 3%
BMW I3 309 3%
VOLKSWAGEN E GOLF 255 3%
KIA SOUL 222 2%
TESLA MODEL S 165 2%
AUDI E-TRON 119 1%
TESLA MODEL X 90 1%
RENAULT FLUENCE 72 1%
MINI MINI CLUBMAN 56 1%
OPEL CORSA 56 1%
PEUGEOT 208 55 1%
JAGUAR I-PACE 53 1%
RENAULT TWIZY 19 0%

there are others but less than 20 not listed

liamog · 04-08-2020 01:38PM

You are missing 2,400 used imports.
And your numbers are short, the data I've collected from beepbeep show's 1483 new Kona's and 3,764 Leaf's.

For the Kona it's 2 in 2018, 1086 in 2019, and 395 in 2020.
The missing Kona's match the number sold between August and December last year, any reason you don't like those months

Laviski · 04-08-2020 01:49PM

month was "not set"
as said only had two filters and total new registrations doesn't included imports?

correction - my 2019 figures got messed up within excel so corrected that now and updated table. Total 9506 Electric, can't account for the 2400 you mentioned.

liamog · 04-08-2020 01:54PM

Laviski wrote: »

month was "not set"
as said only had two filters and total new registrations doesn't included imports?

Yeah, it's a bit annoying, the best example is the numbers for 2017 Electric Nissans.

Total New Registrations: 260
New Irish Registrations: 260
New Imports: 0
Used Imports: 379

Basically to get a total figure you have to add Total New Registrations and Used Imports.

Laviski · 04-08-2020 02:07PM

that is simply retarded, why have "total" when it isn't... jeez

Laviski · 04-08-2020 04:43PM

okay it adds up now.
so the state of play as of July 2020, 11783 electric cars. The early years some cars are marked as UNIDENTIFIED or no model stated. (of that we are talking 20 units)

just listed the top 20

Rank Make Model TotalUnits Total %
1 NISSAN LEAF 5369 46%
2 HYUNDAI KONA 1485 13%
3 RENAULT ZOE 839 7%
4 HYUNDAI IONIQ 695 6%
5 TESLA MODEL 3 636 5%
6 VOLKSWAGEN E GOLF 494 4%
7 BMW I3 405 3%
8 TESLA MODEL S 391 3%
9 KIA NIRO 310 3%
10 VOLKSWAGEN E GOLF 257 2%
11 KIA SOUL 238 2%
12 AUDI E-TRON 119 1%
13 TESLA MODEL X 90 1%
14 RENAULT FLUENCE 78 1%
15 JAGUAR I-PACE 69 1%
16 MINI MINI CLUBMAN 56 0%
17 OPEL CORSA 56 0%
18 PEUGEOT 208 55 0%
19 RENAULT TWIZY 21 0%
20 MITSUBISHI I-MIEV 16 0%

ELM327 · 04-08-2020 04:44PM

So we're already over 50% CCS?

CHAdeMO v CCS

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