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How will schools be able to go back in September?

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    #9782
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,417 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    khalessi wrote: »
    But draughty in winter, how about we get all the staff members to sell their cars and buy camper vans.

    They dont take up too much space and come with a toilet and table for planning. Great for social distancing!! And when morale is low they can comebyah in the staff car park. be great!!!

    Can also function as an overflow area. Stick a 3G router in and stream the class to it 😂


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    #9783
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Elliejo wrote: »
    Is there any way we could all just ignore .......
    I think there should be a hit list of posters to ignore. I'm not going to name them here now, we all know who they are. They know NADA about schools, and get theirs kicks pretending to. Even the lingo used shows just how little they actually know about schools and their workings, from syllabi to timetables to subs etc.

    Just ignore the same few WUMs that ruin this thread for everybody that actually wants to discuss factors in how schools can open and stay open.


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    #9784
    Bananaleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Bananaleaf


    HerrKuehn wrote: »
    No matter what is suggested there is a certain group on here that shoot it down!

    Emm ... it could be argued that that is working both ways. When an issue is raised and certain posters don't have an answer to it (snide or otherwise), rather than acknowledge it and say 'oh, ok, I hadn't thought of that, I'll admit that is a problem', that certain group on here will just ignore the issue completely, pretending that it doesn't exist.

    Case in point? Go back one page in this thread and have a look at the ONE post that Alrigghtythen didn't respond to. Hint: It's #9769

    That should tell you all you need to know about the agendas of certain groups on here.


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    #9785
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users Posts: 4,763 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    https://duiskeglasskilkenny.ie/product/round-glass-paper-weight/

    Is this to keep the exam papers or the marquee from flying away?


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    #9786
    Bananaleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Bananaleaf


    khalessi wrote: »
    But draughty in winter, how about we get all the staff members to sell their cars and buy camper vans.

    They dont take up too much space and come with a toilet and table for planning. Great for social distancing!! And when morale is low they can comebyah in the staff car park. be great!!!

    And if the second wave brings another toilet paper shortage, at least we have our copy of the guidelines to tide us over :pac:


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    #9787
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »
    Is this to keep the exam papers or the marquee from flying away?


    Jimmy catch up!! We are buying camper vans for the comebyah, sorry planning and sd and overflow sheesh!!!


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    #9788
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Bananaleaf wrote: »
    Emm ... it could be argued that that is working both ways. When an issue is raised and certain posters don't have an answer to it (snide or otherwise), rather than acknowledge it and say 'oh, ok, I hadn't thought of that, I'll admit that is a problem', that certain group on here will just ignore the issue completely, pretending that it doesn't exist.

    Case in point? Go back one page in this thread and have a look at the ONE post that Alrigghtythen didn't respond to. Hint: It's #9769

    That should tell you all you need to know about the agendas of certain groups on here.




    Post 9769 Doesnt have a question in it
    Bananaleaf wrote: »
    That 'less' time you speak of is spent working, but to be fair that is irrelevant to this discussion because your point is that it isn't spent in front of a class of students, which is true.

    Therefore, that is 40mins out of our 22hrs that we are not having to worry about social distancing. So, you would be right if you were saying that teachers have less than 22hrs in front of students if they teach junior cycle.


    However. The devil is in the detail. A teacher has a contract for 22 teaching contact hours. These are not a teacher's only contact hours.

    Under the S&S (Substitution and Supervision) scheme, teachers are required to provide up to (but not to exceed) 43 hours of additional cover per year - supervising break and lunch or covering teachers who are absent.

    Due to low levels of absenteeism, many teachers would never have hit 43hrs in a year, but they possibly will this year, meaning that they will have an additional 1.5hrs (if my maths is correct :o ) of class contact time, so more than 22, rather than less.

    Edited to add link re: S&S: https://www.tui.ie/second-level-hours-meetings/second-level-supervision-and-substitution.13097.html


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    #9789
    Bananaleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Bananaleaf


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    Post 9769 Doesnt have a question in it

    Neither did 9774 or 9778 :eek:


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    #9790
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,073 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0803/1157119-germany-schools-reopen/

    Schools in Germany due to open next week
    Masks to be worn on corridors but not in the classes or playroom .
    Regular ventilation advised too .




    Of course we are aware of the danger, but we have very few new infections in our region," said Kay Czerwinski, a member of a local parents' association.

    "The most important thing is to go back to school and avoid falling further behind, otherwise we risk having a lost generation," he told AFP.

    Masks have so far not been made compulsory in schools in the region, but the state's health minister Bettina Martin told a local radio station that she wanted to "play it safe" and require masks outside of classrooms.


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    #9791
    vid36
    Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭vid36


    There are compulsory masks in some German states.


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    #9792
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users Posts: 4,763 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0803/1157119-germany-schools-reopen/

    Schools in Germany due to open next week
    Masks to be worn on corridors but not in the classes or playroom .
    Regular ventilation advised too .

    Whats their PT ratio, are they all back as is planned here? Good to see how other do it, tho other are operating with lower numbers


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    #9793
    jrosen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭jrosen


    Its unfortunate that decisions were made at such a late stage and understandable to see panic amongst teachers and parents.

    The challenges facing individual schools will vary hugely. Which is why imo schools (teachers and principals) should have been consulted months ago. I said from the beginning they know their building and students best. Who better to have a seat at the table when it came to planning the return to school.
    But like alot of industries decisions are made at the top and the people further down are left trying to figure it all out.

    My concern is that students will be at the mercy of their school. We heard the feedback about on line learning, it was amazing for some and awful for others. My fear is that we will see the same approach with the return to school, with some schools doing all they can and others not.

    At this stage im hopeful my kids will go back. But we are still planning for them not too.


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    #9794
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0803/1157119-germany-schools-reopen/

    Schools in Germany due to open next week
    Masks to be worn on corridors but not in the classes or playroom .
    Regular ventilation advised too .




    Of course we are aware of the danger, but we have very few new infections in our region," said Kay Czerwinski, a member of a local parents' association.

    "The most important thing is to go back to school and avoid falling further behind, otherwise we risk having a lost generation," he told AFP.

    Masks have so far not been made compulsory in schools in the region, but the state's health minister Bettina Martin told a local radio station that she wanted to "play it safe" and require masks outside of classrooms.






    Preventing infections
    Strict statewide hygiene rules have been put in place: Students are told to keep their hands off the banisters when taking the stairs — and to wash them frequently. Disinfectant is to be used sparingly and only when deemed necessary — and mixed into cleaning water rather than sprayed pure. Masks are not obligatory and teachers can avail of free testing for the coronavirus.


    Classes have been reorganized, creating so-called "cohorts" groups of several hundred students. The "cohorts" are advised to stay apart, but social distancing rules are being done away with within each group. Classes are being scheduled on a staggered basis. Each cohort has its own area in the school grounds, cloakrooms, restrooms and canteens.


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.dw.com/en/german-schools-reopen-despite-coronavirus/a-54415687

    Interesting aswell is that Germany staggers the summer holidays aswell


    Summer holidays are staggered in Germany, so not all 16 federal states go on vacation at the same time, clogging the nation's airports and famed autobahns. This year's return to school can best be described as a large-scale experiment.


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    #9795
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,073 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »
    Whats their PT ratio, are they all back as is planned here? Good to see how other do it, tho other are operating with lower numbers

    As far as i know the ratio is about 22/23 to one . In Berlin the plan is for a full return with all pupils in every day .


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    #9796
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Some schools in Germany will only have small numbers at a time. The schools have been told to reduce class sizes and they can open anywhere between 4-5 hours a week to all day every day. This makes sense, as I've said repeatedly I have no issue being in a class with 12/14 kids. I have an issue with 25/30!


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    #9797
    Will Yam
    Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭Will Yam


    jrosen wrote: »
    Its unfortunate that decisions were made at such a late stage and understandable to see panic amongst teachers and parents.

    The challenges facing individual schools will vary hugely. Which is why imo schools (teachers and principals) should have been consulted months ago. I said from the beginning they know their building and students best. Who better to have a seat at the table when it came to planning the return to school.
    But like alot of industries decisions are made at the top and the people further down are left trying to figure it all out.

    My concern is that students will be at the mercy of their school. We heard the feedback about on line learning, it was amazing for some and awful for others. My fear is that we will see the same approach with the return to school, with some schools doing all they can and others not.

    At this stage im hopeful my kids will go back. But we are still planning for them not too.

    It will be interesting to see how many parents hold their kids back. This could well take some pressure off the system.


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    #9798
    Will Yam
    Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭Will Yam


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    Some schools in Germany will only have small numbers at a time. The schools have been told to reduce class sizes and they can open anywhere between 4-5 hours a week to all day every day. This makes sense, as I've said repeatedly I have no issue being in a class with 12/14 kids. I have an issue with 25/30!

    So how would you propose to address the issue of the other 12;15?


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    #9799
    votecounts
    Registered Users Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭votecounts


    Will Yam wrote: »
    It will be interesting to see how many parents hold their kids back. This could well take some pressure off the system.
    or the amount of teachers who won't go back due to them being high risk will add to the pressure. Big rush on now, really should have been a plan in place months ago.
    Huge pressure on teachers and parents


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    #9800
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    This just in

    https://www.thejournal.ie/children-have-to-go-to-school-5164980-Aug2020/

    So any parents worried that school is an experiment, which a few have said to me irl, still have to send them or maybe keep them out a few weeks.


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    #9801
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    This is interesting about the german schools which are reopening fully

    Online classes for homeschooling, dubbed "distance learning" by the relevant authorities, is to be avoided in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania. As the state education ministry's decree put it: "Complementary distance learning usually takes the form of digital learning and is to be used mainly for exercises and repetition."

    In the process, the ministry has called for an "increase in 'self-organized' learning, in accordance with individual progress," at the state's primary and secondary schools.


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    #9802
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    khalessi wrote: »
    This just in

    https://www.thejournal.ie/children-have-to-go-to-school-5164980-Aug2020/

    So any parents worried that school is an experiment, which a few have said to me irl, still have to send them or maybe keep them out a few weeks.

    They are not going to allow children to miss more than 20 days of school without following up, that's good. What weakness do you see in the plan outlined in the article?


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    #9803
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,073 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    A weakness i see is that if they need to isolate thats already 14 days
    Parents need to be encouraged to keep them home if they are sick and not worried that it will be followed up if they do


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    #9804
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    It's actually not up to me to figure out how to do it. That's the job of the department of education.

    Their plan, that took 4 months, is basically arrange the desks in a staggered way, wash your hands, a it'll be grand.

    A sensible plan would have been half in half out for a few weeks to see how infection will spread in the Irish context, then gradually increase if it safe. Even bring PP kids back 3 or 4 hours a day instead of 6 initially would allow us to split large classes, with a bit of imagination schools could probably make it work. It would allow us to spend longer acclimatising students and training them in SD. Do it for a month, monitor infections levels, if it's all good increase time then. By Halloween, everyone is trained, we've checked what works and what doesn't with safe levels in the school. Hopefully you'd have every kids back full time by then.

    We opened restaurant pubs before pubs, numbers increased....hold off on pubs. What we are doing in schools is just a rushed job to appease the public. I'll still be teaching the same amount and if the kids are in less hours I'll have to give far more homework and that needs to be corrected. It's making more work but most teachers will donit happily to protect everyone. Staggering the students back is just good public health, it's cautious but last I heard we were doing everything with an "abundance of caution"

    People don't ask nurses on the ground to solve overcrowding in ERs.

    Another thing Germany did right that I've been advocating from the start is a centralised list of vunerable staff to match with vulnerable for remote learning. These staff will not return to school, and neither will the kids....this way they are matched. Simple idea, effective, completely missing from the department plan. A section of children are not returning to school in a meaningful way and that seems to be just fine by the DOE

    With regards to Primary, I'm not an expert. I assume size of classrooms is an issue etc

    Post primary has a separate set of issues.


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    #9805
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    They are not going to allow children to miss more than 20 days of school without following up, that's good. What weakness do you see in the plan outlined in the article?

    kids needing to isolate following testing


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    #9806
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    A weakness i see is that if they need to isolate thats already 14 days
    Parents need to be encouraged to keep them home if they are sick and not worried that it will be followed up if they do

    The Educational Welfare Officer shall consult with the student concerned, his or her parents, the principal and such other persons as he or she considers appropriate, and school concerned and make all reasonable efforts to ensure that provision is made for the continued education of the child and his or her full participation in school.”

    “The educational welfare service will work with schools, students and their parents to support them as school returns.”



    The alternative is a free for all and no checks being done to check if provision is being made for those at home .


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    #9807
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    khalessi wrote: »
    kids needing to isolate following testing

    For 20 days?


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    #9808
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    For 20 days?

    I didnt say 20 days but it could happen a few times during the year


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    #9809
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    For 20 days?

    Until the test results are back . Due to the lack of social distancing or the problematic 1 m distancing - every child in a primary class is “ a close contact .”
    So what happens if one child is to be tested -do the other 29 get tested too , as there are so
    many asymptomatic spreaders ?


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    #9810
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    khalessi wrote: »
    I didnt say 20 days but it could happen a few times during the year

    Right, but that has a medical cert and would be allowed for. It could be proved by the test results and is to monitor the spread of the virus. The uk is rolling out a 90 min test. Theres only 52 weeks in the whole year and it would be very unlikely a child would be getting tested every 2 weeks

    I dont think its that they are aiming for.


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    #9811
    grind gremlin
    Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭grind gremlin


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    They are not going to allow children to miss more than 20 days of school without following up, that's good. What weakness do you see in the plan outlined in the article?

    This has been in place for years. Its rarely ever followed up on. Every school has children that frequently go over the 20 days. There’s at least one one every class. We feed back attendance figures and we hear nothing more.
    It is only really looked into in cases where there are other concerns in relation to the child / home life.


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