How will schools be able to go back in September?

am_zarathustra · 31-07-2020 10:23PM

Most studies show that under the age of 14 it has no positive effect on the standard of the student. It's mad really when you think of all the trouble if causes. In post primary I'd give homework in science once a week maybe, and only if appropriate. Maybe an article to read or if we are doing physics or graphing,, and extra example for practice.

In maths I'd generally give homework every night (but always give my first years the weekend off for good behaviour). Very small tasks and I always emphasised if you can't do it then I didn't teach you right, it not a failure on your part and you shouldn't spend more than 15/20 minutes on it. The number of adults I know whose entire experience of education was fear based as a result of homework is shocking! It's really awful to think of 9 year olds stressing out about about spelling with everything going on!

I hardly ever did homework in school, my Dad wasn't a big believer in it (reading and mental arithmetic though were very important) and lord knows my grades never suffered and I was left with a lifelong love of learning new things

iamwhoiam · 31-07-2020 10:27PM

morebabies wrote: »

Does anyone know if asthma in a child that usually requires at least one emergency dept visit over the autumn/ winter period falls into the high risk category for children returning to school in Ireland? I have 2 children like this, but I obviously know children with much more severe illnesses like CF, who should be prioritised for the (annoyingly vague) remote learning option and I don't want to be seen as abusing the system for teachers who will already be under severe pressure. Any input would be appreciated.

I can only speak from the guidelines given for cocooning of high risk illnesses . An asthmatic was considered severe and high risk if they took oral steroids on a continuous basis . Steroidal inhalers were not considered a factor
I had to look it up at the time for someone but for the life of me cannot find the government guidelines now

BonsaiKitten · 31-07-2020 10:41PM

Sammy2012 wrote: »

This is the same as me. I only give homework because I have to but I do see the value in reading. I give homework on Monday and let them figure out what way they want to do it. We have finally decided to stop giving spelling homework this year so it will be just tables and reading from me now with the odd bit of extra thrown in.

Oh Lord the spellings homework, don't get me started on that rant! I never used the workbook for a traditional spelling test, I used to do a cloze procedure. We're trying Spellings for Me this year (software which selects individual spellings for each child) which I hope will be better.

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Would definitely reduce the amount of items being brought home (and then back into school).

I don't know a single parent that likes homework, after school time should be for family, friends, hobbies and sport etc.

From a risk reduction point of view it makes sense, everything from books to equipment goes in day one and stays in school. Plus we all hate homework

I'll let you in on a secret - the teachers hate it too :pac:
Some of it is worthwhile but some is pure busywork...and then you've the correcting, the chasing it up, the kids who forget to bring in books...I don't know who it benefits aside from the publishers.

BonsaiKitten · 31-07-2020 10:50PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I like your approach, everyone is happy then.

Should be a DES policy, but going by the posts on here, we could be waiting for a decision on homework for a long while, but to me, it makes a lot of sense, pressure off teachers and parents to either help their kids or correct it respectively.

No brainer IMV, and I don't know of any research that supports it. But take that with a pinch of salt, I'm out of the loop a while now!

I mean, after looking at the school reopening plan I'm not sure the department should even be trusted with that :pac: But I agree. I am lucky though that my principal trusts me to make the right decisions for my class - that approach wouldn't fly with all of them.

Some schools are thinking of doing active homework (like reading packets to find the weight of items in maths), as those tasks will be trickier to do in school next year. If we have to have homework next year, maybe that's a good way to do it.

FishOnABike · 31-07-2020 10:52PM

khalessi wrote: »

Can someone tell me where the idea that if only a teacher or person wears a mask it is no good?

Because there's approx. 30 people in the room. If only one is wearing a mask you are only addressing 1/30 of the potential problem.

byhookorbycrook · 31-07-2020 10:53PM

Sending the same spellings home for everyone in the class isn’t teaching spelling . We have used Brendan Culligan’s system for a while now and are moving to “ Spellings For Me” which is based on his research and is totally individual.
I would also push for reading, tables and instrumental music work at home (Out students learn trad music from senior infants up)
. After that , I wouldn’t look at much else , maybe some penmanship for anyone who needs it .

wirelessdude01 · 31-07-2020 10:59PM

You can be guaranteed if homework was pulled you'd also have some parents moaning that it was stopped. Can't please everyone. I generally give English, Maths and something else every night. Weekly English and Irish spellings. I roll the English ones over every week so constant revision going on on words that are commonly misspelt.

thebronze14 · 31-07-2020 11:23PM

kandr10 wrote: »

I’ve questioned the efficacy of spellings for a long time. Glad I’m not alone . I’d have thought it a good idea as suggested above to move to online platforms for homework also, preferably the platform that would be intended for use of distance learning where needed again.

We have mostly moved homework online and it's great. The sixth class do get a bit of written stuff so it's not a total shock to the system come Secondary school!

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 31-07-2020 11:34PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

You can be guaranteed if homework was pulled you'd also have some parents moaning that it was stopped. Can't please everyone. I generally give English, Maths and something else every night. Weekly English and Irish spellings. I roll the English ones over every week so constant revision going on on words that are commonly misspelt.

Anyone who complains about homework being pulled deserves to get it.

It would free up teachers time too having to assign and follow it up, and they are going to need any extra time they can get.

Secondary homework I can handle, the primary stuff is pretty pointless although we're quite fond of project work here. The only benefit I can see really is that a parent might be able to see for themselves what the child needs additional help with (they might not know otherwise).

Would be great to see a trial of it.

wirelessdude01 · 31-07-2020 11:38PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Anyone who complains about homework being pulled deserves to get it.

It would free up teachers time too having to assign and follow it up, and they are going to need any extra time they can get.

Secondary homework I can handle, the primary stuff is pretty pointless although we're quite fond of project work here. The only benefit I can see really is that a parent might be able to see for themselves what the child needs additional help with (they might not know otherwise).

Would be great to see a trial of it.

The amount of complaints I get about project work is unreal. The lack of effort from some also annoys the hell out of me, while others go totally over the top.

caveat emptor · 31-07-2020 11:38PM

Despite being extremely worried about what is before us I'm genuinely optimistic about the schools opening.

Despite the bull**** guidelines teachers clearly understand that 1 meter does not = 2 meters which is immensely reassuring.

We can only get better if we are real about the threat we face.

We can beat this but only acknowledging its success in spreading.

If that means parents need to send their kid every second day to school with a bottle of disinfecteant then so be it.

If we need to keep the windows open until it's unbearable, then so be it.

If a plan is unworkable given the science then rip it up and start again.

Thanks for making me hopeful.

It's not about us ultimately.

BonsaiKitten · 01-08-2020 12:17AM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Sending the same spellings home for everyone in the class isn’t teaching spelling . We have used Brendan Culligan’s system for a while now and are moving to “ Spellings For Me” which is based on his research and is totally individual.
I would also push for reading, tables and instrumental music work at home (Out students learn trad music from senior infants up)
. After that , I wouldn’t look at much else , maybe some penmanship for anyone who needs it .

I agree, Culligan is very good and I followed a modified version of his plan for many years. His method can be time consuming though and difficult to implement when you're also expected to do the spelling workbook...

Funny you mention the trad music. When schools closed, a friend of mine sent her class home with their tin whistles and recorded video lessons for them to do at home. I think she may have done bits over Zoom too. If I was a parent in that class I'd have wanted to shoot her tbh

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

You can be guaranteed if homework was pulled you'd also have some parents moaning that it was stopped. Can't please everyone. I generally give English, Maths and something else every night. Weekly English and Irish spellings. I roll the English ones over every week so constant revision going on on words that are commonly misspelt.

Oh no doubt some would...but why let that stop you, if that's what you believe is in the interests of the children? As you say, you can't please everyone.

Boggles · 01-08-2020 09:37AM

At least 260 kids and counselors got the coronavirus at an overnight camp in Georgia

Almost half of attendees of a Georgia summer camp came down with the coronavirus after a single staffer tested positive and the camp shut down.

The camp adhered to many recommendations, but didn't require campers to wear masks and didn't keep doors and windows open for ventilation

People of all ages were affected, with 1- to 10-year-olds having an even higher "attack rate" than the older kids and staffers

All ages were affected: The attack rate of 51% among 1- to 10-year-olds, 44% among 11- to 17-year-olds, and 33% among 18- to 21-year-olds

I guess we plough on and just keep pretending a certain subset of humans cannot get or transmit the virus and find out the hard way come the Autumn.

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 01-08-2020 09:53AM

Boggles wrote: »

At least 260 kids and counselors got the coronavirus at an overnight camp in Georgia

I guess we plough on and just keep pretending a certain subset of humans cannot get or transmit the virus and find out the hard way come the Autumn.

Jaysus, the infected staff member must have touched every surface in the camp in order for that many children to get infected...

Alrigghtythen · 01-08-2020 10:00AM

Gentleman Off The Pitch wrote: »

Jaysus, the infected staff member must have touched every surface in the camp in order for that many children to get infected...

But only counselors were required to wear masks, and the facilities didn't keep windows and doors open for increased ventilation. Activities like singing, cheering, and sleeping in cabins with an average of 15 people probably didn't help either.

Cabins had between 16 to 26 people. The report said this was "relatively large" but doesn't clearly say if it was too many. Health investigators did fault the camp for not opening enough windows and doors to increase circulation in buildings.

The report said a teenage staff member developed chills on the evening of June 22 and left the camp the following day.

The camp began sending campers home two days later when the staffer got a positive test result for coronavirus. The camp notified state health officials and closed the camp on June 27.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/260-campers-test-positive-for-covid-19-after-4-days-at-a-georgia-ymca-camp

wirelessdude01 · 01-08-2020 10:31AM

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/schools-face-delays-in-reopening-as-builders-must-tender-for-work-39415082.html

I had mentioned the three tenders thing a few days ago and was scoffed at. I know of one school and the earliest start date they are able to get from any contractor they contacted was mid September. That would be 3 weeks after they are meant to have the first batch of children back.

Government playing a blinder. Ahh sure get the kids back to school without any works being done. Ahh sure he are back now so no need to need to actually go ahead with those pesky works at all.

Frankx · 01-08-2020 10:33AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/schools-face-delays-in-reopening-as-builders-must-tender-for-work-39415082.html

I had mentioned the three tenders thing a few days ago and was scoffed at. I know of one school and the earliest start date they are able to get from any contractor they contacted was mid September. That would be 3 weeks after they are meant to have the first batch of children back.

Government playing a blinder. Ahh sure get the kids back to school without any works being done. Ahh sure he are back now so no need to need to actually go ahead with those pesky works at all.

I did work for schools , they always get 3 tenders

Boggles · 01-08-2020 10:36AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

But only counselors were required to wear masks,

There is no requirement for anyone to wear masks in schools here.

But sure why would there be?

Remember that the virus is spread by droplets and is not airborne so physical separation is enough to reduce the risk of spread to others even if they are in the same room

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Activities like singing, cheering

Thank God we banned singing and loud noises in general from Irish schools in the 50s.

wirelessdude01 · 01-08-2020 10:37AM

Frankx wrote: »

I did work for schools , they always get 3 tenders

I know that and you know that but some on here seemed to think that wouldn't have to be the case during this crisis and also that sure it's only relatively small amounts of money/work. Just ring the local guy and get it done seemed to be the attitude of some.

Clearly not aware and familiar with the hoops that have to be jumped through with these things.

Boggles · 01-08-2020 10:39AM

Builders and contractors are flat out trying to catch up on being closed for months.

They can very much name their price now.

The idea that you can tender and get the work done in 4 weeks is complete and utter fantasy.

But of course it was highlighted at the time and ignored.

Alrigghtythen · 01-08-2020 10:46AM

Boggles wrote: »

There is no requirement for anyone to wear masks in schools here.

But sure why would there be?

Thank God we banned singing and loud noises in general from Irish schools in the 50s.

In your classroom do you plan to do singing and cheering with no windows open. Precovid vs. Post covid changes.

How many students sleep in a cabin together in your school?

khalessi · 01-08-2020 10:47AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/schools-face-delays-in-reopening-as-builders-must-tender-for-work-39415082.html

I had mentioned the three tenders thing a few days ago and was scoffed at. I know of one school and the earliest start date they are able to get from any contractor they contacted was mid September. That would be 3 weeks after they are meant to have the first batch of children back.

Government playing a blinder. Ahh sure get the kids back to school without any works being done. Ahh sure he are back now so no need to need to actually go ahead with those pesky works at all.

It is terrible, and my favourite bit is

Ms Foley said schools would be required to "exhaust all other options" before resorting to off-campus accommodation, such as parish halls.

"They have to be able to show there was a justifiable need for that and that all other options have been exhausted," she told the Dáil.

Mr McNamara said he feels the Government is "washing its hands" of responsibility by leaving it up to the schools to get the necessary works carried out.

They had no problem going out and hiring hotels etc for the hospitals but the schools have to stick to beaurocratic red tape, cross their t's and dot their i's.

Absolutely ridiculous!! Talk about time wasted.

Boggles · 01-08-2020 10:49AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

In your classroom do you plan to do singing and cheering with no windows open. Precovid vs. Post covid changes.

I don't have a classroom.

But if the virus isn't airborne, what is wrong with singing?

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

How many students sleep in a cabin together in your school?

None, but I imagine they do in bordering schools.

Again though when they are sleeping in individual beds they are social distanced.

Why would that be a concern if there is no such thing as airborne transmission?

Alrigghtythen · 01-08-2020 10:54AM

Boggles wrote: »

I don't have a classroom.

But if the virus isn't airborne, what is wrong with singing?

None, but I imagine they do in bordering schools.

Again though when they are sleeping in individual beds they are social distanced.

Why would that be a concern if there is no such thing as airborne transmission?

When singing and cheering you expel more particles from your mouth.

Interesting enough a teacher from a boarding school has outlined what thier school has already put in place ready for opening on another thread. They have no issues with funding as private.

Boggles · 01-08-2020 10:57AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

When singing and cheering you expel more particles from your mouth.

So what?

Social distancing will take care of that, there is no such thing as airborne transmission.

Remember that the virus is spread by droplets and is not airborne so physical separation is enough to reduce the risk of spread to others even if they are in the same room

According to the department.

Does it say anywhere in the "plan" that singing and loud noises in general going forward is banned?

And if not why do you keep bringing it up like that is a key difference with the summer camp?

wirelessdude01 · 01-08-2020 11:01AM

I can just imagine the reaction from parents and children, staff won't be considered, when where possible at the height of winter all windows in schools are to be left open to aid ventilation. No heating on as there is no point as it's all just disappearing out the open windows or there is no money left to put oil in the tank or to pay the gas bill.

Murple · 01-08-2020 11:11AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

In your classroom do you plan to do singing and cheering with no windows open. Precovid vs. Post covid changes.

How many students sleep in a cabin together in your school?

I think the most important point of the article that we take away shouldn't be number of children in a cabin or whether they were singing or cheering but this:

All ages were affected: The attack rate of 51% among 1- to 10-year-olds, 44% among 11- to 17-year-olds, and 33% among 18- to 21-year-olds

260 tested positive. 15-20 shared a cabin so spread had to occur outside the cabins as well.
The attack rate was highest in the very age group that the government has decided that social distancing in schools need not apply and also the age range than would never wear masks according to government advice (even though right around the world, children from the age of 3 seem capable of wearing them with no problems). It is also the age group that repeatedly on this thread posters have stated don't get the virus as easily and don't spread it. These figures may suggest different.

Alrigghtythen · 01-08-2020 11:12AM

Boggles wrote: »

So what?

Social distancing will take care of that, there is no such thing as airborne transmission.

According to the department.

Does it say anywhere in the "plan" that singing and loud noises in general going forward is banned?

And if not why do you keep bringing it up like that is a key difference with the summer camp?

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/77452/39d51b02-5633-4e2f-a070-4551a3521081.pdf#page=7

Activity & Time: Depending on the nature of the amenity, venue or event, the extent and duration of interaction between groups of people may vary. Arrangements should be implemented to enable hand hygiene, minimise close contact and the duration of contact between people, (e.g. organise shorter events, staggered attendance hours to limit crowds or designated teams that always engage in activity together to avoid random mixing of people, extend distancing, move activities outdoors).

It is particularly noteworthy that the risk of droplet transmission/aerosol emission may be greater in some circumstances, including:

 in relation to sports and physical activities: in high intensity exercise and direct contact sports;

in relation to group singing and certain group brass and woodwind musical instrument playing

scrubs33 · 01-08-2020 11:16AM

Boggles wrote: »

Builders and contractors are flat out trying to catch up on being closed for months.

They can very much name their price now.

The idea that you can tender and get the work done in 4 weeks is complete and utter fantasy.

But of course it was highlighted at the time and ignored.

I have some small work that needs done on the house and I contacted a few local builders. The earliest anyone will be able to start is mid October. So either schools will have to wait or pay through the nose to get them in earlier and that won’t be long eating through a budget.

Boggles · 01-08-2020 11:28AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/77452/39d51b02-5633-4e2f-a070-4551a3521081.pdf#page=7

Activity & Time: Depending on the nature of the amenity, venue or event, the extent and duration of interaction between groups of people may vary. Arrangements should be implemented to enable hand hygiene, minimise close contact and the duration of contact between people, (e.g. organise shorter events, staggered attendance hours to limit crowds or designated teams that always engage in activity together to avoid random mixing of people, extend distancing, move activities outdoors).

It is particularly noteworthy that the risk of droplet transmission/aerosol emission may be greater in some circumstances, including:

 in relation to sports and physical activities: in high intensity exercise and direct contact sports;

in relation to group singing and certain group brass and woodwind musical instrument playing

That's super. But that advice does not apply to schools, does it?

In that plan they specifically and categorically say

Remember that the virus is spread by droplets and is not airborne so physical separation is enough to reduce the risk of spread to others even if they are in the same room

"Physical separation is enough"

No problem, Mary the cleaner will come in the evening and kill all the Covid with her mop.

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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