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How will schools be able to go back in September?

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Comments

  • #8882
    grind gremlin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭grind gremlin


    caveat emptor wrote: »
    Ok. Thanks for that.

    This looks fvcked to me though. Look like a box of matches actually.

    521599.png

    I love how all of the students in these images have their heads bowed over their desks..... apparently we teach all of our students in a bowed down position. Makes for an easier plan. Turn their chairs to face the board (and out from under their desks) and add in 30 school bags and books and all the other items necessary for learning.
    Also, don’t forget the trail of extension leads and wires around the teachers desk.


  • #8883
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Beasty wrote: »
    Not just that, but it looks like they are less than a metre apart on a side by side basis. I reckon you could only get 15 into that desk format while retaining social distancing

    A rough sketch I did put it at 4 sitting side by side, that's 8 per "pod" which is 16 total and his lovely little desk of 6 which gives me 22. Without taking into account the door opening inwards and the desk and the fact that the kids aren't up against the wall. But he tried at least... But sorry try again.

    Also I love in the above diagram it's 80m squared. Yeah good luck with that 😂


  • #8884
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    grind gremlin wrote: »
    Don’t forget you need to add in a teachers desk. You have counted 3 meters of desk (120 + 120 + 60) and 2meters of space between desks but you haven’t allowed for the size of any of the students. If the room is 6 meters wide you’ve left a total of 1 meter of space for 5 rows of students. Children don’t sit with their legs under the desks at all time’s. They spend a lot of their time facing forward. Children need to be able to get out of the seats easily. Each row of students in this plan has 20cm of space. (If my calculations are correct).
    If this classroom is lucky enough to contain a sink, children will need access to it.

    Room is 6m x 7m.


    Width 6m 120 x 5 =6m (120x3=360cm tables) leaving 240cm

    Length 7m (5 x 60cm is 300cm tables) leaving 400cm. Or 80 cm for each pupils to sit.

    The amount of movement students will be doing will be reduced gone are the days where they can hop up down from their desk at their leisure


  • #8885
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    Room is 6m x 7m.


    Width 6m 120 x 5 =6m (120x3=360cm tables) leaving 240cm

    Length 7m (5 x 60cm is 300cm tables) leaving 400cm. Or 80 cm for each pupils to sit.

    The amount of movement students will be doing will be reduced gone are the days where they can hop up down from their desk at their leisure

    Students dont hop up at their leisure, there are rules but they need the bathroom. It isnt a nightclub.


  • #8886
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    Room is 6m x 7m.


    Width 6m 120 x 5 =6m (120x3=360cm tables) leaving 240cm

    Length 7m (5 x 60cm is 300cm tables) leaving 400cm. Or 80 cm for each pupils to sit.

    The amount of movement students will be doing will be reduced gone are the days where they can hop up down from their desk at their leisure

    Seriously, draw it and you'll see what we all see but you don't. The DES example is double the size and looks cramped.. I


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  • #8887
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    Seriously, draw it and you'll see what we all see but you don't. The DES example is double the size and looks cramped.. I

    I'll have to start charging consultancy fees


  • #8888
    Murple
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 337 ✭✭Murple


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    How do the children squashed in at the walls move ?

    They don't. That's a cunning part of the plan. Jam them in against the wall so they can't move. This helps them to maintain distance from others.
    The fact that they have produced a classroom plan where children are sitting 0.4m from each other as a suggested solution shows the ridiculousness of it all. Unless the tables are bolted to the floor, you'd spend your day moving them apart.


  • #8889
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    I'll have to start charging consultancy fees

    Nah I don't pay for makey uppy designs that don't actually adhere to the brief. You didn't give every kid 1m circle, didn't include the teacher desk, didn't include the door, and you imagine kids are 2d.

    Thanks though. You tried to think it out, more than the dept who just made the classroom bigger in their minds.


  • #8890
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 78,458 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    It also begs the question as to how a teacher can "oversee" and help students who are struggling to come to grips with an issue. How can they "mark" work - or is that all to be done electronically? Is it actually much better than learning remotely?

    The other issue I would forsee is as soon as there's a single case in a school it would have to lockdown for 2 weeks (or possibly longer if it spreads), and everyone's back to remote learning anyway.

    And to those who say children generally have relatively mild symptoms, those are the people most likely to not know they are infected and therefore likely to infect a lot more people

    I've one kid due back in school next month and 2 starting 3rd level education in September. The ones going to college only expect to be there every 3rd week, with everything else done remotely. That seems a reasonable way to tackle this, as I fear for the idea of bringing all kids back into classrooms simultaneously

    Once we have a vaccine that's available to everyone we may get back to the "old" ways of doing things, but this pandemic is playing out pretty much as the experts were suggesting when it kicked off with fresh "spikes" or "new waves" meaning there are variable levels of lockdown, both in terms of the scale of restrictions and geographic areas. Trying to get everyone back risks a situation where the "lucky" ones get through this relatively unscathed (both health-wise and academically), whereas a lot end up with a great deal of disruption


  • #8891
    happyday
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭happyday


    grind gremlin wrote: »
    I love how all of the students in these images have their heads bowed over their desks..... apparently we teach all of our students in a bowed down position. Makes for an easier plan. Turn their chairs to face the board (and out from under their desks) and add in 30 school bags and books and all the other items necessary for learning.
    Also, don’t forget the trail of extension leads and wires around the teachers desk.

    We have a SNA in almost every class in our school... with a desk. Where does she fit in?


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  • #8892
    caveat emptor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    khalessi wrote: »
    Students dont hop up at their leisure, there are rules but they need the bathroom. It isnt a nightclub.

    I am in a problem solving mood tonight!
    Funny if it wasn't so serious.

    They'll have to do some form of staggering or alternate days.
    Or fvck the public health concerns and run the gauntlet.

    521601.JPG


  • #8893
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Then there is this little study from Chicago

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2768952

    Early reports did not find strong evidence of children as major contributors to SARS-CoV-2 spread,3 but school closures early in pandemic responses thwarted larger-scale investigations of schools as a source of community transmission. As public health systems look to reopen schools and day cares, understanding transmission potential in children will be important to guide public health measures. Here, we report that replication of SARS-CoV-2 in older children leads to similar levels of viral nucleic acid as adults, but significantly greater amounts of viral nucleic acid are detected in children younger than 5 years.


    Our analyses suggest children younger than 5 years with mild to moderate COVID-19 have high amounts of SARS-CoV-2 viral RNA in their nasopharynx compared with older children and adults. Our study is limited to detection of viral nucleic acid, rather than infectious virus, although SARS-CoV-2 pediatric studies reported a correlation between higher nucleic acid levels and the ability to culture infectious virus.5 Thus, young children can potentially be important drivers of SARS-CoV-2 spread in the general population, as has been demonstrated with respiratory syncytial virus, where children with high viral loads are more likely to transmit.6 Behavioral habits of young children and close quarters in school and day care settings raise concern for SARS-CoV-2 amplification in this population as public health restrictions are eased. In addition to public health implications, this population will be important for targeting immunization efforts as SARS-CoV-2 vaccines become available.



    'We found that children under five with COVID-19 have a higher viral load than older children and adults, which may suggest greater transmission, as we see with respiratory syncytial virus, also known as RSV,' said lead author Dr Taylor Heald-Sargent, a pediatric infectious diseases specialist at Lurie Children's.

    'This has important public health implications, especially during discussions on the safety of reopening schools and daycare.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8576665/Children-younger-five-spread-coronavirus-just-easily-older-kids.html


  • #8894
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    happyday wrote: »
    We have a SNA in almost every class in our school... with a desk. Where does she fit in?

    You could put her under the sink, if you have a sink. Bespoke solutions.


  • #8895
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Beasty wrote: »
    It also begs the question as to how a teacher can "oversee" and help students who are struggling to come to grips with an issue. How can they "mark" work - or is that all to be done electronically? Is it actually much better than learning remotely?

    The other issue I would forsee is as soon as there's a single case in a school it would have to lockdown for 2 weeks (or possibly longer if it spreads), and everyone's back to remote learning anyway.

    And to those who say children generally have relatively mild symptoms, those are the people most likely to not know they are infected and therefore likely to infect a lot more people

    I've one kid due back in school next month and 2 starting 3rd level education in September. The ones going to college only expect to be there every 3rd week, with everything else done remotely. That seems a reasonable way to tackle this, as I fear for the idea of bringing all kids back into classrooms simultaneously

    Once we have a vaccine that's available to everyone we may get back to the "old" ways of doing things, but this pandemic is playing out pretty much as the experts were suggesting when it kicked off with fresh "spikes" or "new waves" meaning there are variable levels of lockdown, both in terms of the scale of restrictions and geographic areas. Trying to get everyone back risks a situation where the "lucky" ones get through this relatively unscathed (both health-wise and academically), whereas a lot end up with a great deal of disruption

    Yup that's logical, and I agree. The ramping up process is what we all expected. 6th and 3rd and 5th in for 3 days a week, 1st 2nd and ty in for 2 days, or week on week off etc. You might have even sneaked in some extra requests for teachers to remote teach those out on their off day too in submitting doing homework etc. But nah, too hard to deal with the parental pushback there, leave it to the schools to put out the flames or say no.

    I'm reasonable, I'm young ish, I'm ok with going into to potentially unsafe environment, it's the hypocrisy of measures for everything else, but not schools. That's what annoys us all.


  • #8896
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    Seriously, draw it and you'll see what we all see but you don't. The DES example is double the size and looks cramped.. I

    Children are encouraged to learn from their mistakes. Clearly some of their parents never had that opportunity.


  • #8897
    grind gremlin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭grind gremlin


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    I'll have to start charging consultancy fees

    The suggested plan provided by the department above is a classroom almost twice the size of the one the poster described. The classroom also needs space for an SNA and a student in a wheelchair.
    It’s impossible to have a class layout that meets SD rules given the size constraints.


  • #8898
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Can someone tell me where the idea that if only a teacher or person wears a mask it is no good?


  • #8899
    grind gremlin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭grind gremlin


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    You could put her under the sink, if you have a sink. Bespoke solutions.

    To be fair, these days SNA’s are often ‘shared’ between multiple students. They are often racing from class to class as different children with different needs have to be supported.... and our poor ministers are upset that they have to share advisors....


  • #8900
    Icyseanfitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,532 ✭✭✭Icyseanfitz


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    You could put her under the sink, if you have a sink. Bespoke solutions.

    My own idea for us snas would be to stand outside the window and shout advice in to our kids, slightly disruptive, but as you said, #bespokesolutions


  • #8901
    grind gremlin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭grind gremlin


    Icyseanfitz wrote: »
    My own idea for us snas would be to stand outside the window and shout advice in to our kids, slightly disruptive, but as you said, #bespokesolutions

    At this rate I might join them.


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  • #8902
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Icyseanfitz wrote: »
    My own idea for us snas would be to stand outside the window and shout advice in to our kids, slightly disruptive, but as you said, #bespokesolutions

    Yes and they can use megaphones for the students upstairs


  • #8903
    Icyseanfitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,532 ✭✭✭Icyseanfitz


    khalessi wrote: »
    Yes and they can use megaphones for the students upstairs

    A periscope to see what's happening


  • #8904
    grind gremlin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭grind gremlin


    Would ‘standing room only‘ work in our classrooms? I know Ryanair floated the idea at one point


  • #8905
    Icyseanfitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,532 ✭✭✭Icyseanfitz


    grind gremlin wrote: »
    To be fair, these days SNA’s are often ‘shared’ between multiple students. They are often racing from class to class as different children with different needs have to be supported.... and our poor ministers are upset that they have to share advisors....

    I work with 6-7 different students throughout the week, different years and needs. How that can happen without making a mockery of SD and pods etc I've no idea


  • #8906
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    To be fair to our poster, again they tried. I won't mock anyone for that. It's the next bit that I want people to realise.

    So we tried to get a classroom sorted. We can't, what's next? You ignore the distancing and hope for the best (which is what I think most schools are doing because I'm even been in my school and our layouts don't inspire), or you look to other measures. I'd like the non teachers to offer the suggestions now on that one.


  • #8907
    grind gremlin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭grind gremlin


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    To be fair to our poster, again they tried. I won't mock anyone for that. It's the next bit that I want people to realise.

    So we tried to get a classroom sorted. We can't, what's next? You ignore the distancing and hope for the best (which is what I think most schools are doing because I'm even been in my school and our layouts don't inspire), or you look to other measures. I'd like the non teachers to offer the suggestions now on that one.

    Do schools get the blame when the unworkable doesn’t work? This could be a catastrophe in the making.


  • #8908
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    grind gremlin wrote: »
    The suggested plan provided by the department above is a classroom almost twice the size of the one the poster described. The classroom also needs space for an SNA and a student in a wheelchair.
    It’s impossible to have a class layout that meets SD rules given the size constraints.

    The poster mustn't have read what the dept. is publishing because it mentions the exact size room the poster has and gives guidance


    The use of face coverings/visors must be implemented where the 1 metre distance cannot be achieved. For example:
    more than 24 students in a 49sq classroom that has been fully cleared
    more than 20 students in a 42sqm classroom.

    Satellite rooms

    So which part of this is the poster unable to make work?

    There also seems to be an issue with toilets? People in work places go to the toilet without all the drama the teachers are imagining.


  • #8909
    caveat emptor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    khalessi wrote: »
    Can someone tell me where the idea that if only a teacher or person wears a mask it is no good?

    Sorry I didn't read right.

    essentially if everyone wears "surgical mask" type it blunts infection enough that nobody gets it (with other measures). Still possible.
    If one person i.e teacher wears it then it won't be enough if there's an outbreak. It essentially only stops YOUR droplets and aerosols from infecting others.
    If you were to were an fp3 respirator with goggles you'd be golden.
    caveat only works if there is no exhaust valve on the mask as if there was you'd be fine but if you contracted your exhaust gas would
    infect the class.

    potentially. Any questions. Let me know.


    Hears a summary. I don't think it's a good argument.


    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1288528942392057857?s=20


  • #8910
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    not mocking poster but DOE for their lovely diagram. how about tiered seating

    or



    double decker couches!!


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  • #8911
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    To be fair to our poster, again they tried. I won't mock anyone for that. It's the next bit that I want people to realise.

    So we tried to get a classroom sorted. We can't, what's next? You ignore the distancing and hope for the best (which is what I think most schools are doing because I'm even been in my school and our layouts don't inspire), or you look to other measures. I'd like the non teachers to offer the suggestions now on that one.

    Read the guidance. Why ignore it. You implement it ad much as you can .

    Ignoring it and hoping for the best is akin to hiding back under the bed

    What resources have you askedyour principal for regarding extra space, satellite rooms etc?


This discussion has been closed.
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