How will schools be able to go back in September?

froog · 24-07-2020 06:48PM

glack wrote: »

I’m really relieved to hear I’ll be back in my classroom in September and I’m looking forward to finally finding out what’s in store for schools next week.

A few hopes and wishes for the guidelines:

1. Arrangements for staggered break times (to reduce student interaction with children in other classes and among teachers in staff rooms also)

2. Cleaning protocols- my school wouldn’t be the cleanest normally and many other schools are the same. My classroom desks get washed when I do it. Many teachers don’t clean theirs so they are never cleaned (gross!) but this should not really be the teachers responsibility. Classroom floors get swept but not washed either so this also needs to change. I think if it’s laid out in black and white it will happen. Extra funding needed for this also. Would love to have a sink in my classroom so I can clean my desks properly daily but saving that I’d take a spray/disposable tissue etc like you see being used in restaurants. Also need protocols around cleaning of bannisters, door handles, toilets etc during the day.

3. Teachers, SNAs and all other staff should be required to wear masks or shields as appropriate. I’ll probably have to stick to a shield due to the nature of the SEN in my class this year. Face coverings should be considered in second level.

4. Classes will hopefully be back in full. But arrangements should be made to ensure this can happen long term. What kind of “pod” systems can realistically be put I place? We don’t want to have to shut down the whole building every time someone has a connection with a confirmed or suspected case. Max that should have to stay home is one class if there is a case.

5. Laid out expectations as to what should happen if we had to close again either temporarily or for months again. Let’s learn from the madness of this March. Personally I plan on setting up home/school communication platforms as soon as we reopen so that it is ready should we need use it. Will also use it in class so my students are familiar and we aren’t all learning from scratch again. I’m guessing that there’s a high chance individual schools or classrooms may have to close for weeks at a time. We need to be prepared.

6. How will group work, station teaching, special education etc work. How will SNAs interact? This is particularly huge in younger classes. In our school management of infants using toilets is a huge concern.

7. How to manage shared spaces - PE halls/equipment, computer suites etc. Use of shared devices - iPads, chrome books, laptops etc.

8. One of the bigger issues-arrival and dismissal! Are we staggering arrival and finishing times or what? Can hardly expect 100s of children to arrive and leave at the same time without interacting.

Oh and let’s not forget the huge issues around buses and transport!!! No easy solution there. Hopefully will be some suggestions and guidelines here too.

can schools come up with any of those things themselves do you think?

blanch152 · 24-07-2020 06:51PM

froog wrote: »

can schools come up with any of those things themselves do you think?

Well yes, know that one local school is advertising for extra cleaning staff.

glack · 24-07-2020 06:53PM

froog wrote: »

can schools come up with any of those things themselves do you think?

Until now we’ve been told to wait for guidelines. So that’s what my school has done. Issue with each school doing their own thing is that school A might do a fantastic job while school B doesn’t do anything at all with school C somewhere in the middle. This approach had mixed success so far with some schools really stepping up to the mark with online lessons etc and others barely doing anything. Clear guidelines reduces this disparity. Also, at primary so many schools simply don’t have the manpower as the principals are teachers too, they have no caretakers and schools are cleaned maybe twice a week.

iamwhoiam · 24-07-2020 06:56PM

I think this would be a good time to ask kids ( parents) to bring in a packet of anti bac wipes and clean their own desks
Every child could bring one packet and store them and use as needed
I also think children could be asked to bring a ziplock bag with a clean hand towel and hand sanitizer .
I know that some parents wont comply but many will , in my own area I could envisage good compliance

froog · 24-07-2020 06:57PM

glack wrote: »

Until now we’ve been told to wait for guidelines. So that’s what my school has done. Issue with each school doing their own thing is that school A might do a fantastic job while school B doesn’t do anything at all with school C somewhere in the middle. This approach had mixed success so far with some schools really stepping up to the mark with online lessons etc and others barely doing anything. Clear guidelines reduces this disparity. Also, at primary so many schools simply don’t have the manpower as the principals are teachers too, they have no caretakers and schools are cleaned maybe twice a week.

i suppose my point is every school is very different in terms of student numbers, physical layout of the school, resources etc. so the guidelines schools will receive will be pretty general/high level and not much different to general business guidelines that have been out for months now, and schools will have to apply them as best they can. if you are waiting for specific solutions to your school you will be waiting a long time.

is_that_so · 24-07-2020 07:00PM

froog wrote: »

can schools come up with any of those things themselves do you think?

You still need the requirements and support from the top and you can be sure they'd head off solo runs.

am_zarathustra · 24-07-2020 07:04PM

robfowler78 wrote: »

Could be wrong but I don't think face masks are recommended for children under 13. I not sure if that includes schools

Sorry you are correct, I should have specified I was secondary. Under 10s appear to transmit less and in Primary they won't be moving changing teacher or room so they can effectively "pod". Staggered timetables are less of an issue as there is one teacher generally to consider. There could be 15/16 depending on options or levels within a secondary class.

I do believe most of these issues can be overcome, it just requires time and planning. If a huge amount is left to the dreaded "local arrangements" some principals will do a brilliant job and ensure most kids are back and that everyone has a clear plan and feels safe but I know enough principals to know that won't be the case everywhere and some staff will be left to deal with it themselves. As previous commentators have said, the variance between schools when it came to online learning was staggering. This also needs to be addressed and whats expected made explicit.

I do believe that the Department of Education have always just banked on individual schools figuring out new technologies, funding themselves for extras, goodwill from staff and parents, and the SEC running the most visible part of education, the state exams, well. By and large, most of the changes in the last ten years have been detrimental to education, poorly thought through, badly resourced and, almost always, detrimental to students from disadvantaged backgrounds. I hope this mess shows them up for what they are.

lulublue22 · 24-07-2020 07:07PM

froog wrote: »

can schools come up with any of those things themselves do you think?

We spent June and early July getting ready for September. We based our measures on HSE and July provision guidelines - as much as we could. We have a lot of that nitty gritty - staggered breaks / SET provision , ppe sanitising protocol etc worked out already barring a major curveball on Mon we are fairly set to go.

History Queen · 24-07-2020 07:08PM

blanch152 wrote: »

The problems the Government have are mainly down to the teacher unions being slow on the uptake to realise that the world has changed.

From day 1 the Government was planning for the possibility of calculated grades, but in order to bring the unions along, they had to examine all other possibilities first.

As regards reopening the schools, we have seen already the social distancing regulations are reduced for schools in other countries and hasn't caused a problem, it will be the same here.

I can't find reference to any country that has reduced sovial distancing in schools without either reduced student numbers or the use of PPE or both. Are you aware of any? I also don't understand your assertions that the unions are problem?

lulublue22 · 24-07-2020 07:16PM

glack wrote: »

Until now we’ve been told to wait for guidelines. So that’s what my school has done. Issue with each school doing their own thing is that school A might do a fantastic job while school B doesn’t do anything at all with school C somewhere in the middle. This approach had mixed success so far with some schools really stepping up to the mark with online lessons etc and others barely doing anything. Clear guidelines reduces this disparity. Also, at primary so many schools simply don’t have the manpower as the principals are teachers too, they have no caretakers and schools are cleaned maybe twice a week.

We did it based on HSE and July provision guidelines. If I’m honest I think waiting totally for dep guidelines is a cop out. As a school you are entitled to stagger breaks if you so wish - similar with group work. Sanitising equipment such as spray , wipes and or enough masks to get through Sep is just good practice anyway. Rota’s for cleaning class etc is also within schools remit. TBF there was a certain amount that schools could do without waiting fir the dep. I don’t accept the disparity among schools arguments either to be honest. We started getting feedback in late May and started implementing strategies as best we could in June and July. As did a lot if schools I know.

am_zarathustra · 24-07-2020 07:21PM

lulublue22 wrote: »

We did it based on HSE and July provision guidelines. If I’m honest I think waiting totally for dep guidelines is a cop out. As a school you are entitled to stagger breaks if you so wish - similar with group work. Sanitising equipment such as spray , wipes and or enough masks to get through Sep is just good practice anyway. Rota’s for cleaning class etc is also within schools remit. TBF there was a certain amount that schools could do without waiting fir the dep. I don’t accept the disparity among schools arguments either to be honest. We started getting feedback in late May and started implementing strategies as best we could in June and July. As did a lot if schools I know.

I know several schools that haven't done a single thing....waiting for guidelines. If a principal decides to wait, there is little anyone else in the school can do. I agree, it is all doable but the guidelines should have issued weeks ago. I doubt anything in the document will be a shock but it would have allowed teachers to start planning in schools where management leaves something to be desired.

My own school personally will probably be fine. It's schools I have previously taught in, where I still have friends that I would be concerned about. Schools where asking the principal a simple question could lead to a row. We all know these schools exist. It's for these teachers I would like to see strong guidelines from the department

Smacruairi · 24-07-2020 07:27PM

lulublue22 wrote: »

We did it based on HSE and July provision guidelines. If I’m honest I think waiting totally for dep guidelines is a cop out. As a school you are entitled to stagger breaks if you so wish - similar with group work. Sanitising equipment such as spray , wipes and or enough masks to get through Sep is just good practice anyway. Rota’s for cleaning class etc is also within schools remit. TBF there was a certain amount that schools could do without waiting fir the dep. I don’t accept the disparity among schools arguments either to be honest. We started getting feedback in late May and started implementing strategies as best we could in June and July. As did a lot if schools I know.

100% agree. And to be fair, a bit of elbow grease from principals at the start of August could mitigate a lack of June and July work. However what a school day looks like is the big issue and could be a sledgehammer here to all plans. I'm secondary, and it's like pulling a thread of a jumper once you start looking at the timetables for students. Hopefully the guidelines offer more than "2m distance and off you go with local arrangements".

6th years will want as much time as possible, quite rightly. Then 5th will want a load of contact time coming out of TY and looking to hit the ground running. Then 3rd years too will need exam priority. But first years need to embed into the new environment. I can understand the arguments for all years (bar ty...) to be prioritised and every parent will quite rightly fight for their patch as much as possible, but that's why the dept hopefully go that specific so that it's not the footsoldiers being lobbied, but the higher ups.

That's my slight concern anyway, but it could threaten to destabilise the entire school community if everyone gets selfish.

lulublue22 · 24-07-2020 07:27PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I know several schools that haven't done a single thing....waiting for guidelines. If a principal decides to wait, there is little anyone else in the school can do. I agree, it is all doable bu the guidelines should have issued weeks ago. I doubt anything in the document will be a shock but it would have allowed teachers to start planning in schools where management leaves something to be desired.

I agree with you guidelines are shockingly late and tbf schools need direction from the dep . But at the same time issues such as staggered breaks , cleaning products, even a small supply if ppe to get through Sep , group work etc are local issues that can be addressed without guidelines.

r93kaey5p2izun · 24-07-2020 07:33PM

I think the massive gulf between primary and secondary must be considered re planning. The intricacies of planning a timetable are significant in normal times. 1m distancing, 2m distancing, students no longer banded by level for core subjects, students grouped according to option choices- each of those individually or collectively have different and profound impacts on any timetable and on arrangements for physical facilities and resources. I'm not sure people understand the mammoth task this will be and expecting each scenario planned for in the absence of final guidelines is ridiculous imo.

lulublue22 · 24-07-2020 07:35PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

100% agree. And to be fair, a bit of elbow grease from principals at the start of August could mitigate a lack of June and July work. However what a school day looks like is the big issue and could be a sledgehammer here to all plans. I'm secondary, and it's like pulling a thread of a jumper once you start looking at the timetables for students. Hopefully the guidelines offer more than "2m distance and off you go with location arrangements".

6th years will want as much time as possible, quite rightly. Then 5th will want a load of contact time coming out of TY and looking to hit the ground running. Then 3rd years too will need exam priority. But first years need to embed into the new environment. I can understand the arguments for all years (bar ty...) to be prioritised and every parent will quite rightly fight for their patch as much as possible, but that's why the dept hopefully go that specific so that it's not the footsoldiers being lobbied, but the higher ups.

That's my slight concern anyway, but it could threaten to destabilise the entire school community if everyone gets selfish.

I’ve no doubt it will be tricky both Secondary and Primary will have different issues to deal with compounded by issues particular to individual schools. I genuinely feel the first term will be chaotic. Subs or lack of are a huge issue for us as is children coming to school sick. Having staff to man an isolation room will be tricky. There are loads of issues still up in the air. It’s going to be a tough few weeks.

ETA we all got on board management and staff to get as much as we practically could done. Tbf management were good at getting feedback re concerns and trying as far as possible to mitigate them.

glack · 24-07-2020 07:43PM

froog wrote: »

i suppose my point is every school is very different in terms of student numbers, physical layout of the school, resources etc. so the guidelines schools will receive will be pretty general/high level and not much different to general business guidelines that have been out for months now, and schools will have to apply them as best they can. if you are waiting for specific solutions to your school you will be waiting a long time.

Yes but these generic guidelines have a major impact. June’s document wanted 1m social distancing from 3rd class up. Our large class sizes plus tiny classrooms would mean 50% max capacity. This now looks like it wouldn’t be required. Spent hours in June/early July moving furniture, switching classrooms, removing storage etc to create more room and now it looks like it won’t be in the final guidelines at all.

As far as I’m aware I’m our school they have hired extra cleaning staff for September (as we can absorb the cost of that but hopefully will get extra funds to continue). When I was last there, sanitiser existed at the main entrance but nowhere else so all staff in my building just brought their own.

They had gotten quotes from builders to build additional toilets though and this work has begun - hopefully that work can be completed pre school opening as it would be a huge help. My class would currently have to travel a decent distance to the nearest toilets so this would help with keeping classes separated and reducing interaction with other children. This will take all of our minor works grant though (plus additional money!!!) so I’m sure management were relieved to see this grant has been doubled for this year-this will mean they have funds for other improvements. Hopefully there is time to get those done too but with only 5 weeks to go, maybe not.

So work is in motion.

lulublue22 · 24-07-2020 07:53PM

Yosef Stocky Backspace wrote: »

I think the massive gulf between primary and secondary must be considered re planning. The intricacies of planning a timetable are significant in normal times. 1m distancing, 2m distancing, students no longer banded by level for core subjects, students grouped according to option choices- each of those individually or collectively have different and profound impacts on any timetable and on arrangements for physical facilities and resources. I'm not sure people understand the mammoth task this will be and expecting each scenario planned for in the absence of final guidelines is ridiculous imo.

I think each level will have difficulties specific to that group and I can only imagine how tricky organising a secondary school timetable is at the best of times not to mind say now. I certainly don’t expect every school to have each scenario planned for without guidelines and we certainly don’t. I suppose I’m talking about putting in place the procedures / strategies that you know you will need and that will work. There is a certain amount that every school can do without dep guidelines.

am_zarathustra · 24-07-2020 07:54PM

Yosef Stocky Backspace wrote: »

I think the massive gulf between primary and secondary must be considered re planning. The intricacies of planning a timetable are significant in normal times. 1m distancing, 2m distancing, students no longer banded by level for core subjects, students grouped according to option choices- each of those individually or collectively have different and profound impacts on any timetable and on arrangements for physical facilities and resources. I'm not sure people understand the mammoth task this will be and expecting each scenario planned for in the absence of final guidelines is ridiculous imo.

I completely agree!! The biggest summer issue for management in secondary schools is timetabling and hiring. In Dublin you can't do the timetable until you see what teachers you can actually hire. I'm in a tough school and when the reality kicks in for young teachers we generally loose one or two....this can cause the entire timetable to have to be redrawn and every single teachers and pupils timetable can and generally will change as a result. This has happened most years recently, sometimes more than once in the first term just due to hiring issues.This then has a knock-on effect on rooms, generally at a premium. Staggering times is very difficult at secondary...it would have to be done in one hour blocks....so 9 start and a 10 start, a 3.30 and 4.30 finish. Lunch breaks would then have to be the same length of time as a class or that would cause issues with staff being out of sync.

The knock on effects at secondary will be unique to every school and will only be apparent once whatever guidelines are issued are actually issued. Due to lack of time I know most secondary schools will still be ironing issues out in September. If we had had the guidelines in June many schools would have had the time to get things in place. I'm assuming I'm basically back to work Monday.........

lulublue22 · 24-07-2020 07:56PM

glack wrote: »

Yes but these generic guidelines have a major impact. June’s document wanted 1m social distancing from 3rd class up. Our large class sizes plus tiny classrooms would mean 50% max capacity. This now looks like it wouldn’t be required. Spent hours in June/early July moving furniture, switching classrooms, removing storage etc to create more room and now it looks like it won’t be in the final guidelines at all.

As far as I’m aware I’m our school they have hired extra cleaning staff for September (as we can absorb the cost of that but hopefully will get extra funds to continue). When I was last there, sanitiser existed at the main entrance but nowhere else so all staff in my building just brought their own.

They had gotten quotes from builders to build additional toilets though and this work has begun - hopefully that work can be completed pre school opening as it would be a huge help. My class would currently have to travel a decent distance to the nearest toilets so this would help with keeping classes separated and reducing interaction with other children. This will take all of our minor works grant though (plus additional money!!!) so I’m sure management were relieved to see this grant has been doubled for this year-this will mean they have funds for other improvements. Hopefully there is time to get those done too but with only 5 weeks to go, maybe not.

So work is in motion.

Sure that is all anyone can do. Your school has identified possible issues and tried as far as possible / practical to solve them.

timmy_mallet · 24-07-2020 08:09PM

solerina wrote: »

The day the government return to Leinster house as per normal is the day when it’s safe to go back to school as per normal...until that day we need a safe plan not just go back at all costs which is what seems to be the case !!

Does it not boil down to a cost benefit analysis, theres no benefit to having the dail together in Leinster house, so pointless argument. Did retail workers say the same when they were the only places open during March?

There is a massive risk to kids NOT being in school, so the cost (covid risk to all involved), while applying reasonable safety measures, is worth it. If teachers unions disagree, it's their choice

Again, it's all a charade, everyone is getting their ar$es covered, knowing that in Ireland with the way education is structured and the stakeholders involved, there will be never be a return to school while this disease is a pandemic.

History Queen · 24-07-2020 08:16PM

timmy_mallet wrote: »

Does it not boil down to a cost benefit analysis, theres no benefit to having the dail together in Leinster house, so pointless argument. Did retail workers say the same when they were the only places open during March?

There is a massive risk to kids NOT being in school, so the cost (covid risk to all involved), while applying reasonable safety measures, is worth it. If teachers unions disagree, it's their choice

Again, it's all a charade, everyone is getting their ar$es covered, knowing that in Ireland with the way education is structured and the stakeholders involved, there will be never be a return to school while this disease is a pandemic.

Schools will open.

Benimar · 24-07-2020 08:20PM

History Queen wrote: »

Schools will open.

What’s your view on how much time kids will be in for per week?

As a parent I’ve always thought half time would be the extent of it (teachers in for 5 days - classes split in two), but the Government seem to be going all in on a full return. I’m not sure how feasible that is, they can’t just ignore all Social Distancing...can they?!

Boggles · 24-07-2020 08:25PM

Benimar wrote: »

What’s your view on how much time kids will be in for per week?

As a parent I’ve always thought half time would be the extent of it (teachers in for 5 days - classes split in two), but the Government seem to be going all in on a full return. I’m not sure how feasible that is, they can’t just ignore all Social Distancing...can they?!

Why not? If it goes títs up there is zero accountability.

History Queen · 24-07-2020 08:29PM

Benimar wrote: »

What’s your view on how much time kids will be in for per week?

As a parent I’ve always thought half time would be the extent of it (teachers in for 5 days - classes split in two), but the Government seem to be going all in on a full return. I’m not sure how feasible that is, they can’t just ignore all Social Distancing...can they?!

Honestly I couldn't begin to guess. I'm second level so with the amount of movement involved I can't see a full time return for everyone. I could be wrong on that.

Lillyfae · 24-07-2020 08:30PM

History Queen wrote: »

I can't find reference to any country that has reduced sovial distancing in schools without either reduced student numbers or the use of PPE or both. Are you aware of any? I also don't understand your assertions that the unions are problem?

After a trial run of 50/50, primary school children went back for full time about 6 weeks before summer break in The Netherlands. Crèches since the middle of May 100%. Children of frontline workers were in school all through lockdown. When the others returned, there were enhanced rules such as parents using certain entrances for picks ups and drop offs, not being allowed in the building, of course good hand hygiene etc but no PPE. No second wave yet.

average_runner · 24-07-2020 08:33PM

the corpo wrote: »

Mine are. Most of my friends kids are social distancing. Some aren't.

It's July, loads of kids would traditionally be away now, if they were all out on the greens mingling each park in Ireland would look like Slane.

And again, outdoors transmission is entirely different to indoors transmission.

Kids are back in sports. No social distancing there.

Our kids are on the street with the other kids, in and out of their houses. This is essential for their own mental health. We know our inner circle

Campsites are packed and kids are running around together.

Boggles · 24-07-2020 08:38PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

After a trial run of 50/50, primary school children went back for full time about 6 weeks before summer break in The Netherlands. Crèches since the middle of May 100%. Children of frontline workers were in school all through lockdown. When the others returned, there were enhanced rules such as parents using certain entrances for picks ups and drop offs, not being allowed in the building, of course good hand hygiene etc but no PPE. No second wave yet.

Alarm in Netherlands as Covid-19 cases and reproduction rate climb

the corpo · 24-07-2020 08:39PM

average_runner wrote: »

Kids are back in sports. No social distancing there.

Our kids are on the street with the other kids, in and out of their houses. This is essential for their own mental health. We know our inner circle

Campsites are packed and kids are running around together.

No idea about going into each other's houses, certainly hardly in groups of 30.

Otherwise your three examples are all outdoors. So it's a false equivalence.

average_runner · 24-07-2020 08:40PM

the corpo wrote: »

No idea about going into each other's houses, certainly hardly in groups of 30.

Otherwise your three examples are all outdoors. So it's a false equivalence.

Builders are outside and picking it up

Boggles · 24-07-2020 08:44PM

average_runner wrote: »

Kids are back in sports. No social distancing there.

Our kids are on the street with the other kids, in and out of their houses. This is essential for their own mental health. We know our inner circle

Campsites are packed and kids are running around together.

Yes you are 18 times less likely to pickup the virus outdoors.

Our classrooms are indoors.

Also there is very low instances of the virus in the community at the moment, all though the pattern has shifted and it is rising.

Our public officials don't think this will remain the case, nor does anyone that knows anything about novel viruses where the vast majority of the hosts have no immunity.

Global pandemic 101, plan for the worst, hope for the best.

I'm not expecting to see plan Monday, it took what a month for the Green list to be published?

For the sake of parents, children and staff hopefully some stage next week.

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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