How will schools be able to go back in September?

Bananaleaf · 10-07-2020 04:35PM

JDD wrote: »

I do think my five year old might be dyslexic. Which has had made teaching the basics to her more difficult and time consuming - not least because I don't have the first idea how to teach her differently in order to take this into account. I made her cry one day when practicing her handwriting - I clearly didn't mean to but when you're trying to teach a child to draw a line straight down, and they consistently go sideways, or start in the middle, and this is just a tiny part of the homework you have to get done that morning, with only one of your children, and you are frustrated and tired from working until 1am to try and catch up on the work from your real job, it is clearly not sustainable. I refuse to put us all in those circumstances again.
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My heart goes out to you reading this. That is, as you say, an impossible situation.

Us teachers, who are trained in our discipline, couldn't teach under those circumstances.

You shouldn't have to do it and you are right, expecting you to continue doesn't bear thinking about

I also think of the school refusers- children and young adults who we have put so much time and so many supports in place for, to get them to a point where they may even consider coming to school. We will be back to square one, if not worse, by August with these students.

The virus doesn't care, the previous poster who said that is right. But it didn't make your situation any easier. I really hope things are able to go back to normal. For everyone's sake

mcsean2163 · 10-07-2020 10:41PM

The virus doesn't care but as we see in Italy where good statistics exist, the virus targets people in older age brackets. The risk of death is miniscule to people under 40. Surely in a worst case, that age bracket could work with the kids? Even a day a week would be of benefit and perhaps those at risk could do zoom classes.

In Italy 86 people under 40 died

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105061/coronavirus-deaths-by-region-in-italy/

normanoffside · 10-07-2020 10:46PM

normanoffside wrote: »

Many private schools have already announced that you can’t return to school if you have been outside the country in the previous 14 days. Parents will have to sign a form declaring this to be the case.

It would be a simple measure to roll this out for all schools and parents would then know where they stand. If they want to take a holiday they can do so in July or early August. If they come back late August then their kids will have to miss a week or two of school.

The problem at the moment is the lack of clarity.

I guess someone was listening to me...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/children-who-go-abroad-must-self-isolate-for-14-days-before-return-to-school-in-september-1.4301643?mode=amp

Parents must ensure any child who goes on holiday abroad self-isolates for two weeks before schools reopen, the Department of Education secretary general has said.

Speaking at the Oireachtas special committee on Covid-19 response, Seán Ó Foghlú, secretary general at the Department of Education, said Government wanted to see all children return to school for full days of classes as “safely and as normally as possible”.

He said the department will publish detailed guidelines on the re-opening of schools by the end of the month however, he urged parents to ensure children who travel abroad for summer holidays self-isolate for 14 days before they return to school in September.

Bananaleaf · 10-07-2020 11:18PM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

The virus doesn't care but as we see in Italy where good statistics exist, the virus targets people in older age brackets. The risk of death is miniscule to people under 40. Surely in a worst case, that age bracket could work with the kids? Even a day a week would be of benefit and perhaps those at risk could do zoom classes.

In Italy 86 people under 40 died

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105061/coronavirus-deaths-by-region-in-italy/

The virus doesn't just target the older age brackets. The virus targets us all.

I think what you meant to say is that the virus isnt fatal to anyone other than those in the older age brackets.

Children can still host the virus. If they can host it, they can spread it. My father is a vulnerable member of society. If he catches Covid-19 he will die.

If case numbers start rising, I wouldnt be happy for schools to reopen. Not because I am a teacher and I want more holidays, but because I don't want my father to die.

Before it gets mentioned again, I know that the pubs, cafes, hair dressers etc have opened. Well, if case numbers start rising, I would want them closed again too.

There are articles beginning to appear that speak of additional health complications in people who had contracted Covid and recovered from it, so I wouldn't be so sure just yet that it is only the elderly that need to watch their backs with this one

YFlyer · 10-07-2020 11:25PM

[quote="Bananaleaf;113997780"

My father is a vulnerable member of society. If he catches Covid-19 he will die.

[/quote]

How are you so sure?

Bananaleaf · 10-07-2020 11:50PM

YFlyer wrote: »

How are you so sure?

He had a Lobectomy less than a year ago and is still recovering from it. You are right that I don't know for sure but given that and his age, I wouldn't be fancying his chances

FishOnABike · 11-07-2020 02:38AM

markodaly wrote: »

The solution could be this simple and indeed other countries are following exactly this.

Israel tried this and it didn't work out well.

This is a public health issue and needs to be approached from a public health perspective.

If people are still expected to work from home where possible and facemasks are mandatory on public transport and advised in enclosed spaces and workplaces e.g. pharmacies, barbers, hairdressers, etc., social distancing required in restaurants and pubs, social gatherings restricted in numbers, etc. we can't just magic those same requirements away for schools because they are inconvenient.

Those measures need to be applied consistently. Removing any simply because they make it difficult to reopen all schools all the time for all pupils is putting the cart before the horse. The easy option isn't always the best in the long run.

The DES, Dept of Health, Dept. of Finance and other stakeholders need to ask what is necessary so that schools can operate within public health advice and provide schools with the guidelines and resources to do so.

Tellyium · 11-07-2020 03:08AM

I’ll admit I haven’t read the thread, but what.contingencies are being worked on, in terms of distance learning/ virtual classrooms etc? If the schools don’t open in September, can we use technology to have a virtual teacher/class set up?

morebabies · 11-07-2020 09:26AM

Tellyium wrote: »

I’ll admit I haven’t read the thread, but what.contingencies are being worked on, in terms of distance learning/ virtual classrooms etc? If the schools don’t open in September, can we use technology to have a virtual teacher/class set up?

I watched a lot of the Oireachtas Committee meeting yesterday about the reopening of schools, and they just kept saying "we are aiming for a full return to school in September". It's as though they have no contingency plans, that was my reading of it.

Someone asked if it would be possible to provide a virtual or "recorded" curriculum, accessible to all students, in case of further disruption, and the idea was shot down immediately. They said firstly, schools move through the curriculum at a different pace, and secondly, there was no comparison between teaching in a classroom setting and online resources.

It was really frustrating to be honest because surely it's obvious we need a plan in place in case there is a spike in cases this autumn / winter.

LilyShame · 11-07-2020 10:00AM

I have a feeling the department of education will not be ready for September lads!

I agree with the 14 day quarantine for kids coming home from overseas before September... That's fair

But all this mullarkey in rte news re... Don't go on holidays... I think is ground work for Doe to blame families and holidays for their total inability to make this happen.. You can see where this is going.

I think the Chris horn report is a brutal view on the impact of aviation Lockdown on Irelands economy.

So for this v stressed out parents dreading the homeschool thing... I'd take your social distance holidays if you can, feels like homeschooling might be around for longer. Oh the thoughts...

jrosen · 11-07-2020 11:59AM

I have a sinking feeling also come September the dept will be stood open mouthed with no plan.

I agree with the quarantine if you have been abroad. If parents and families want to travel so be it, they can manage the consequence.

Unfortunately we wont be in a position to home school. Work is back with a bang for us both so our children if not in school will be very much left to manage their own education because after working a 10 hour day I have no intention of trying to wrangle my kids at 8/9pm.

Drumpot · 11-07-2020 12:07PM

Yeh, I would be very worried thatthey are going to wing this. Basically hope one of two things. That either actual scientific evidence proves beyond doubt that children/schools don’t really spread the virus or that we don’t get any significant surges that require schools to close.

Is there some sort of informed task force looking into this or are we relying on people who don’t really know what they are talking about to figure this all out?

FishOnABike · 11-07-2020 03:31PM

Drumpot wrote: »

Yeh, I would be very worried thatthey are going to wing this. Basically hope one of two things. That either actual scientific evidence proves beyond doubt that children/schools don’t really spread the virus or that we don’t get any significant surges that require schools to close.

Is there some sort of informed task force looking into this or are we relying on people who don’t really know what they are talking about to figure this all out?

I think the school based clusters in Israel¹ ² and Melbourne³ have pretty much blown out of the water any notion that children/schools don't really spread the virus.

¹ https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-battles-new-wave-coronavirus-infections-after-reopening-n1233139

"According to Gabi Barbash, a former director general of the Health Ministry and professor of epidemiology at the Weizmann Institute, the main trigger for the new wave lies in the government’s decision to open schools, event halls and pubs, with infections surging among young people”

² https://www.ijn.com/israel-thought-it-had-crushed-covid-19-now-lockdowns-reimposed/

" The virus quickly spread through the education system, with tens of thousands of students forced into quarantine and outbreaks in some high schools.”

³ https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-09/al-taqwa-college-coronavirus-covid19-cluster-melbourne-truganina/12437584

Crossing our fingers and naïvely hoping schools can operate as if nothing has happened come the end of August / start of September is not going to cut it. Comprehensive preventative measures will need to be put in place including contingency plans to deal with suspected and/or confirmed cases within a school or within staff/student contacts.

jrosen · 11-07-2020 09:52PM

I agree, assuming schools can operate as normal is not enough. I dont think Ireland has a consistent standard of technology across schools. So thinking that ALL schools can do distance/blended learning is stupid. If anything the last few months has shown us the vast differences between schools regardless of the reasons.

I think schools have to go back in September with a full schedule, allow the teachers to use PPE. Soap/hand sanitizer available all the time. Any school that requires an upgrade to bathrooms/sinks needs to happen before September. Close all communal areas. Classes basically stay in their home room all day. If any teacher is considered high risk they should be able to stay home with full pay, any other teacher who isn't comfortable can take unpaid leave. But the schools have to be supported in keeping sick staff/students home and if there is a case or a suspected case the school closes.

Scoondal · 11-07-2020 10:23PM

My children will not be going back to school until covid19 is finished.

BonsaiKitten · 11-07-2020 10:58PM

jrosen wrote: »

I think schools have to go back in September with a full schedule, allow the teachers to use PPE. Soap/hand sanitizer available all the time. Any school that requires an upgrade to bathrooms/sinks needs to happen before September. Close all communal areas. Classes basically stay in their home room all day. If any teacher is considered high risk they should be able to stay home with full pay, any other teacher who isn't comfortable can take unpaid leave. But the schools have to be supported in keeping sick staff/students home and if there is a case or a suspected case the school closes.

I presume that's just for primary though. You can't have secondary in one room all day due to all the subjects to be covered, unless perhaps each student had a device and the teacher livestreamed from their own classroom. The kids could all tune in to their lessons then which would be a help, although it still leaves the practical subjects up in the air. Maybe the kids just move classroom for those lessons and when not in a practical, they return to the base class.

I think arrival, break and home time co ordination will be very interesting when we return to school. There's a million little problems no matter what you do. Even thinking about that students on devices idea I had I can see a million pitfalls (like supervision).

Visors for all in school would be a big help in containing spread but I can't see there being a willingness to fund it.

the corpo · 11-07-2020 11:01PM

Hugh O'Connell tweeting that the Sunday Independent has an interview with Minister Foley tomorrow, and it sounds like it isn't a good one.
September reopenings under her stewardship may be an utter disaster....

https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/1282067511098454017?s=20

...Ghost... · 11-07-2020 11:41PM

jrosen wrote: »

If any teacher is considered high risk they should be able to stay home with full pay, any other teacher who isn't comfortable can take unpaid leave. But the schools have to be supported in keeping sick staff/students home and if there is a case or a suspected case the school closes.

What about the teachers who have high risk family members? Elderly parents they help take of. Spouses with pre-existing conditions. Even children with a strong case of asthma. Should they be forced to take unpaid leave, or to put their loved ones lives at risk?

The schools not opening in September will be a massive inconvenience for me and my family. My OH would have to work from home and take up the family PC for most of the day. I would be unable to work, or study from home because the PC I work from would be in use and I would be looking after the kids who are not in school. I’d rather that than sending my kids to several different schools where they might pick up the virus after spending hours in an enclosed space with about 30 other people. If we drop the ball on schools for our own convenience, it could be very costly.

mcsean2163 · 12-07-2020 12:02AM

khalessi wrote: »

Too much academic or not enough?Too easy or too hard?

Bananaleaf wrote: »

The virus doesn't just target the older age brackets. The virus targets us all.

I think what you meant to say is that the virus isnt fatal to anyone other than those in the older age brackets.

Children can still host the virus. If they can host it, they can spread it. My father is a vulnerable member of society. If he catches Covid-19 he will die.

If case numbers start rising, I wouldnt be happy for schools to reopen. Not because I am a teacher and I want more holidays, but because I don't want my father to die.

Before it gets mentioned again, I know that the pubs, cafes, hair dressers etc have opened. Well, if case numbers start rising, I would want them closed again too.

There are articles beginning to appear that speak of additional health complications in people who had contracted Covid and recovered from it, so I wouldn't be so sure just yet that it is only the elderly that need to watch their backs with this one

Bananaleaf, my wife is a healthcare worker who was treating COVID19 patients. Her mother has an autoimmune condition, my mother is over 80.

We all supported her in her work. I essentially quit my job as childcare disappeared and grandparents couldn't help us. She never considered walking out on her job despite the risk to herself, me, our children and extended family nor would we have expected her to do so.

People are always at risk of death through a variety of illnesses that circulate such as influenza etc. but generally we accept the risks and move forward. I think it is hard to contemplate returning to such a risky world the longer one is essentially sheltering but realistically, if we don't work, Ireland could be in real danger.

In your case you may be one of the people that decide to work from home but in most cases if people are under 40 and not co-habiting with at risk people, I would expect that they could return to work.

Don't know what anyone else thinks but surely above is reasonable?

P.S. I said, "The risk of death is miniscule to people under 40." Isn't that much the same as your version "the virus isnt fatal to anyone other than those in the older age brackets. "

Again those figures for anyone that missed it:

In Italy 86 people under 40 died

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105061/coronavirus-deaths-by-region-in-italy/

There were 33,700 deaths in Italy. 86 deaths were under the age of 40. That means 33,614 were over the age of 40.

nyarlothothep · 12-07-2020 12:20AM

morebabies wrote: »

I watched a lot of the Oireachtas Committee meeting yesterday about the reopening of schools, and they just kept saying "we are aiming for a full return to school in September". It's as though they have no contingency plans, that was my reading of it.

Someone asked if it would be possible to provide a virtual or "recorded" curriculum, accessible to all students, in case of further disruption, and the idea was shot down immediately. They said firstly, schools move through the curriculum at a different pace, and secondly, there was no comparison between teaching in a classroom setting and online resources.

It was really frustrating to be honest because surely it's obvious we need a plan in place in case there is a spike in cases this autumn / winter.

I teach online, there's absolutely no reason why teaching can't be done online beyond people doubling down on convention/their opinion on "normality".

Newbie20 · 12-07-2020 12:52AM

As a teacher myself, I really really hope we are back in August. I don’t want to have to go back to the online stuff. Having said that, it is absolute madness that the government don’t seem to be working on a Plan B, Plan C etc.

The bottom line is the government have no interest in spending money on education, this is what it all boils down to. That’s why there won’t be adequate PPE and there won’t be soap etc. Those that are saying that schools need to have bathrooms updated by DOE if they aren’t up to scratch etc, no offence but you clearly have no idea how things work if you think this is a possibility. They won’t spend the money. I’m just praying cases will be low and we’ll be back. If things go wrong it will be some mess because the government seem to have their heads in the sand thinking it will be all be ok and we’ll definitely be back.

Online teaching is far from ideal but the Department need to at least have a plan in place for this possibility.

Bananaleaf · 12-07-2020 02:02AM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Bananaleaf, my wife is a healthcare worker who was treating COVID19 patients. Her mother has an autoimmune condition, my mother is over 80.

We all supported her in her work. I essentially quit my job as childcare disappeared and grandparents couldn't help us. She never considered walking out on her job despite the risk to herself, me, our children and extended family nor would we have expected her to do so.

People are always at risk of death through a variety of illnesses that circulate such as influenza etc. but generally we accept the risks and move forward. I think it is hard to contemplate returning to such a risky world the longer one is essentially sheltering but realistically, if we don't work, Ireland could be in real danger.

In your case you may be one of the people that decide to work from home but in most cases if people are under 40 and not co-habiting with at risk people, I would expect that they could return to work.

Don't know what anyone else thinks but surely above is reasonable?

P.S. I said, "The risk of death is miniscule to people under 40." Isn't that much the same as your version "the virus isnt fatal to anyone other than those in the older age brackets. "

Again those figures for anyone that missed it:

In Italy 86 people under 40 died

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105061/coronavirus-deaths-by-region-in-italy/

There were 33,700 deaths in Italy. 86 deaths were under the age of 40. That means 33,614 were over the age of 40.

First off, your wife has my utmost respect and always had. From being in and out of hospitals with my dad and other family members, I know how hard healthcare personnel work and how undervalued they are.

If the schools go back in September, I will be in there working. I'm not saying that I want them to stay closed. I agree with you that we all have to get back working.

But if I am at risk of contracting Covid, I want protective measures put in place where I work. A number of people seem to think that teachers need to just shut up and get on with it because 'it's not targeting kids anyway' but I that is wrong and it is unfair.

Any changes that have been made to the Irish education system for as long as I can remember, have been money-saving crusades. Sorry if I sound cynical, but I will be (pleasantly) surprised if they suddenly started spending on it now. Although, I wonder will they use all the €€€ they saved on not running the LC ... now there's a thought if you're there minister Foley!

If the schools reopen with no directives (not guidelines) on safety from Dept of Ed and if those directives dont come with a budget, and IF (we are possibly not long enough out of lockdown to know how this is going to go, it might actually be grand and we're stressing for nothing) case numbers start rising rapidly again, then we are going to end up with a second wave. The kids will be back home, childcares and schools will be closed and the hospitals will be completely overrun. There will be no winners.

With regard to the 'virus isn't fatal' comment, yes you are right what you wrote and what I wrote in 'correction' to you is pretty much the same thing. I will have to admit that I mustn't have read the part of your post where you mention the risk of death and I got stuck on the 'targets the elderly' comment. Apologies. The point I was wishing to make in relation to that was that just because the younger folk arent dying from it, doesnt mean it isn't doing something to them, ie: protective measures in schools is protecting the kids too and just cause they won't die from it, doesnt mean they don't need the protection

Bananaleaf · 12-07-2020 02:16AM

Newbie20 wrote: »

Online teaching is far from ideal but the Department need to at least have a plan in place for this possibility.

They absolutely do need a plan and I'm amazed we've gone so long without one. I remember thinking 2 years ago when we had the snow days, how totally unprepared a lot of schools are for these freak incidents - snow days, storms, fire (or any kind of structural) damage, utility disruption.

morebabies · 12-07-2020 07:46AM

On top of this lack of clarity, we got our bill for two secondary students annual bus tickets a few days ago, €650.

In normal times, we wouldn't query it, but now we're holding back because we know so little about how the next academic year is going to look. Obviously buses can't manage social distancing, and neither can bus companies offer twice as many buses and drivers with the same income for school transport. Obligatory masks on buses is all that can be done I suppose.

s1ippy · 12-07-2020 08:17AM

What needs to happen now is that teachers should absolutely given a framework for online teaching to supplement their in-class learning plans, if workable ways of doing that are implemented...

like, I dunno, installing plastic screens in classrooms and letting staff and students wear masks and visors to ensure schools aren't as much of a high-risk workplace?

Experts should be enlisted and paid to set up a better centralised online learning hub than the current existing one. The UK could conceivably do all of their teaching online because the BBC have such a great website. We cannot access these materials in Ireland (though obviously those in NI can, to great advantage), so similar ones should be made available for Irish schools. It's quite perplexing to me that this hasn't already been started. Any of the best teachers I know have a huge wealth of knowledge and resources at their disposal from the last few months of online learning they delivered, as well as from using interactive whiteboards effectively in classrooms.

A combination of a well-planned system at the ready for when online learning is necessary and distancing safeguards in place to mitigate against the schools having to shut down is the only strategy which will work. It's what students, teachers, parents (and that dirty word, UNIONS) want and require from the DoE. Everyone will be satisfied if this is delivered and the only thing getting in the way is the painful inadequacy of our Dept of Education and the complete inertia we've had. If this had been the goal from the start, there could already be a guarantee that education in Ireland would not suffer.

Unfortunately heels are being dragged and it is the families and children who are going to lose out. Oh and all those useless lazy good-for-nothing *idlers who work in schools as well.

*who haven't been given clear guidance or any certainties around what the plan is

jrosen · 12-07-2020 11:04AM

...Ghost... wrote: »

What about the teachers who have high risk family members? Elderly parents they help take of. Spouses with pre-existing conditions. Even children with a strong case of asthma. Should they be forced to take unpaid leave, or to put their loved ones lives at risk?

The schools not opening in September will be a massive inconvenience for me and my family. My OH would have to work from home and take up the family PC for most of the day. I would be unable to work, or study from home because the PC I work from would be in use and I would be looking after the kids who are not in school. I’d rather that than sending my kids to several different schools where they might pick up the virus after spending hours in an enclosed space with about 30 other people. If we drop the ball on schools for our own convenience, it could be very costly.

I think any employee who is fit and able to return to work but chooses not too should have to take unpaid leave, unpaid parental leave.
Its not about inconvenience. Its about children missing out on their education. Its about expecting parents who are working to somehow find the time in their already 8 hour day to follow a curriculum and teach their own kids. Its not sustainable long term nor is it realistic.

jrosen · 12-07-2020 11:06AM

morebabies wrote: »

On top of this lack of clarity, we got our bill for two secondary students annual bus tickets a few days ago, €650.

In normal times, we wouldn't query it, but now we're holding back because we know so little about how the next academic year is going to look. Obviously buses can't manage social distancing, and neither can bus companies offer twice as many buses and drivers with the same income for school transport. Obligatory masks on buses is all that can be done I suppose.

Feel the same ourselves. It was reported refunds would be given and I expected to see a deduction on my bill for this year but there wasnt one. I will probably pay in 2 halves.
I dont know how they are going to do it. The number of buses would need to increase hugely if some sort of distancing is required. Alternatively masks would have to be mandatory.

road_high · 12-07-2020 11:10AM

Scoondal wrote: »

My children will not be going back to school until covid19 is finished.

It may never be “finished”. And your children won’t have a full and proper education as a result

Sanjuro · 12-07-2020 11:20AM

Scoondal wrote: »

My children will not be going back to school until covid19 is finished.

Then you have a fundamental lack of understanding of what the lockdown was for and how the pandemic is being managed. Your children will be the ones who lose out long term with that attitude.

Alex86Eire · 12-07-2020 12:55PM

Scoondal wrote: »

My children will not be going back to school until covid19 is finished.

You know that could be a very long time right?

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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