What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

09-07-2020 1:42pm

MFPM wrote: »

Still no evidence of your sweeping generalised statements just more deflection. I couldn't care less about my 'credibility' with you, i n fcat you should be more focused on your own credibility.

Now perhaps you could do the discussion a service and go back to your post and substantiate some of your 'opinions' with some hard facts.

Ahh sweet irony.

Enough said I think. You're obviously not here to contribute anything of value. A **** stirrer is all.

Clarence Boddiker · 09-07-2020 1:45pm

This is where we are now, this the kind of mindfcuk poisoning our childrens minds.
Totally depraved, beyond the beyonds in terms of (anti white) racism.

Heres what educate together plan on teaching when schools reopen.

"Hi, my name is Laura and I’m privileged“ – how many conversations start this way? Very few, if any, but they should"

"Acknowledge your privilege"

"If you are a white, settled, Irish person living in Ireland, you experience privilege, even though it may not seem like it or be immediately obvious"

https://www.educatetogether.ie/news/anti-racism-in-our-schools/

MFPM · 09-07-2020 2:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh sweet irony.

Enough said I think. You're obviously not here to contribute anything of value. A **** stirrer is all.

'Irony'?

You're obviously not here to contribute anything of value.

Says the guy posting sweeping generalisations without an ounce of evidence.

A **** stirrer is all.

More ad hominem and deflection.

MFPM · 09-07-2020 2:18pm

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

This is where we are now, this the kind of mindfcuk poisoning our childrens minds.
Totally depraved, beyond the beyonds in terms of (anti white) racism.

Heres what educate together plan on teaching when schools reopen.

"Hi, my name is Laura and I’m privileged“ – how many conversations start this way? Very few, if any, but they should"

"Acknowledge your privilege"

"If you are a white, settled, Irish person living in Ireland, you experience privilege, even though it may not seem like it or be immediately obvious"

https://www.educatetogether.ie/news/anti-racism-in-our-schools/

What on earth is wrong with the quote? Are you suggesting that schools and education shouldn't play a role in discussion on the real lived experiences of children?

MFPM · 09-07-2020 2:21pm

DelaneyIn wrote: »

Why are all these non Europeans moving to Europe if we are such a racist and backward thinking people?

Are they sadomasochists or something? It’s getting tiresome to listen to foreigners smear the native people whilst they live in our countries.

If we were half as bad as they claim, we simply wouldn’t have let them or their parents in.

A whole lot of othering going on in this post...

Wayne Gorsky · 09-07-2020 2:25pm

RyanthePirate wrote: »

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

Limited immigration by qualified individuals with jobs (language specific etc.) tends to be a net positive, while mass immigration by illiterates usually isn't…

oyvey · 09-07-2020 2:34pm

MFPM wrote: »

What on earth is wrong with the quote? Are you suggesting that schools and education shouldn't play a role in discussion on the real lived experiences of children?

The quote is utter bollocks. Don't burden innocent kids with this white privilege bullsh*t.

Kaybaykwah · 09-07-2020 2:39pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh sweet irony.

Enough said I think. You're obviously not here to contribute anything of value. A **** stirrer is all.

Well, you go on about your migration to Australia and how you have contributed without taking a red penny from your host country. All giving and no taking and how productive you are. No proof of that, really, it's all hearsay.

MFPM · 09-07-2020 2:45pm

oyvey wrote: »

The quote is utter bollocks. Don't burden innocent kids with this white privilege bullsh*t.

The quote is utter bollocks

It's not, it's an attempt to help kids understand racism and kids who are never likely to experience it but perhaps due to upbringing may engage in it.

Don't burden innocent kids with this white privilege bullsh*t.

As longs as it's taught in an age appropriate manner, there is nothing wrong with this. Are you suggesting that teaching children about the lived experiences of some of their class mates is not important or that the lived experience of some of their class mates is not important either.

It's utterly absurd that you'd be offended by this.

DelaneyIn · 09-07-2020 2:48pm

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

Well, you go on about your migration to Australia and how you have contributed without taking a red penny from your host country. All giving and no taking and how productive you are. No proof of that, really, it's all hearsay.

The statistics back up his point.

Irish in Australia;

Once in Australia, few Irish immigrants have trouble finding a job. Unemployment among the Irish community in Australia is just 2.4%.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/17/ireland-australia-land-of-plenty

Africans in Ireland;

The employment rate for Africans in Ireland was also very low at 45%

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1107/1009164-esri_migrants/

oyvey · 09-07-2020 3:06pm

MFPM wrote: »

It's not, it's an attempt to help kids understand racism and kids who are never likely to experience it but perhaps due to upbringing may engage in it.

As longs as it's taught in an age appropriate manner, there is nothing wrong with this. Are you suggesting that teaching children about the lived experiences of some of their class mates is not important or that the lived experience of some of their class mates is not important either.

It's utterly absurd that you'd be offended by this.

Telling whites kids now that they're more privileged isn't going to bring people together, it's going to bring divisiveness into the next generation. Not to mention it'll probably just make minority kids in a room full of white kids feel self-conscious or inferior.

Educate them by all means, but don't bring this white privilege bullsh*t into it.

09-07-2020 3:19pm

Multiculturalism seems to be a euphemism for those from Countries who practice the religion of peace invading the host Country. And invade is correct, because many of them are still here after their first appeal is rejected. Criminals should be sent home.

Very little is shown of Slovakian, Lithuanian, Polish cultures etc on TV in comparison to those who are darker skinned. I think it's a disgrace that not only are they being accommodated illegally, but also that us Irish have to bend to their will and demands to the detriment of our own culture.

I can picture the scene now, if it hasn't happened already that two gays might be beat up or indeed prosecuted for holding hands in a "Muslim area" down the line. What is "multiculturalism" - is it not people of different beliefs/faiths/outlooks intermingling and co-existing peacefully.

Yet so much talk of "Muslim areas" in France etc.. Mindboggling that there can be such areas and perhaps moreso that they are/or are allowed to be termed as such.

My view on multiculturalism is Fuq multiculturalism. It hasn't worked in Sweden, France, Germany etc. It should be nipped in the bud here as well before we get too far that we're too far gone. When the next census form comes around I'm ticking the Irish box for Nationality - no ancillary crap like white/non-white/1st generation/2nd generation. Crap which will most likely be on the form - which unfortunately doesn't come in the post.

Wibbs · 09-07-2020 4:21pm

MFPM wrote: »

Yes, the departments set the bar very high, somewhat ironic given migration from this country has been overwhelmingly 'economic'.

Outside of existing colonies like the US who were built and sustained on immigration - and those "huddled masses" were largely in the past as far as being actively pursued - the majority of Irish emigration was legal. Try just hopping over to the US today without needed skills and see where that gets you. And yes I would deport illegal Irish from the US.

TheCitizen wrote: »

https://news.sky.com/video/history-is-written-by-the-people-who-do-the-harm-cricket-commentators-view-of-white-privilege-12024274

Michael Holding West Indies cricketer spoke about the issue of racism very well in this clip from SKY. Some of the commentary on this site exemplified by this thread is nothing short of a disgrace.

And that man is dead right on pretty much all fronts(though the White Jesus part is far more about the Romano Christian world making him not Jewish, not the other. Judas was far more often shown as a caricature of the Jew, the Semite, the other, again to distance the new religion from its origins. The carbon filament was invented by Joseph Swan long before Edison or anyone else).

The Black man(especially the Black man) has been dehumanised for centuries and there is most certainly a them and us going on and not just between Black/White/Yellow, that them and us is writ through human nature like words in a stick of rock. Pick any nation, any region throughout history and you'll find it and it doesn't matter the colour of skin going on either. Skin colour just makes it easier for the them and us to be more recognisable. It's about the biggest reason why multiculturalism has so many stressors and failure points.

Note how he started of by saying he hadn't encountered this stuff much at all growing up in Jamaica(though as he goes on to say he would have picked up some of the Black not so good, White pretty cool stuff). Of course not as Jamaica is 94% Black African origin folks. He only encountered it when... you guessed it, when he moved to a "multicultural" society. It's a given it kicks off.

Can we stop it? It's a lofty goal and one I've heard most of my life looking out from Ireland to the US and UK in the 70's and 80's and 90's... And yet here we are today where a group of US police, themselves of different "races" and backgrounds snuffed the life out of an African American in broad daylight in front of a battery of camera phones.

MFPM wrote: »

Mulitculturalism isn't an ideology and it certainly hasn't failed, are the problems in many cities, yes but there a multitude of factors that contribute to those problems - culture/economics/poverty/social inequality etc.

Multiculturalism is most certainly an ideology, overwhelmingly originating in and fostered by nations like the US who ended up multicultural both by design and "mistake" and were suffering the ills of it and sought, hoped to fix things, or at least look like they were doing something by pushing the notion of multicultural "melting pots". The very idea and politic simply wouldn't itself exist if there were no fracture lines along ethnicity and "race".

The idea of multiculturalism wouldn't have even been on the table in Ireland 30 years ago, because we had no numbers to speak of of non native Irish people, whereas our neighbours the UK were rolling it out as a Hail Mary solution because of the crap that was going down with different immigrant populations over there. The second and third generation of people born there whose parents had emigrated to the UK realised they were sold a pup. "British" in passport only in many ways, and yes racism from the native population was a huge part of it. They sought redress in both peaceful and not so peaceful means, just like African Americans had a generation previously and for similar reasons. Just like non natives in France and Germany. Everywhere this multicultural society has been tried has had the exact same issues. Apparently the Irish will do things differently. Travellers are pale faced often ginger haired 100% Irish and yet... How many centuries of ballsology has been played out on this island between two pale faced ethnic groups?

Slowyourrole wrote: »

would you live in any of those places? Would you happy with the rights you had if you did?

And? Hey, maybe what these places need is many more White Europeans? For multicultural diversity and the like. Yeah I didn't think so. The very sentence will have many twitching trying to find the "racism" in it. Diversity only seems to go one way and is very much based on the levels of melanin in the skin. The hundreds of thousands of Poles, Germans, Italians, Spaniards and British living in Ireland get nary a mention. Even Asian folks are low on the totem of what is apparently the correct sort of diversity.

TheCitizen wrote: »

It’s not about people having different opinions or about concerns with direct provision centres etc., I’m talking about a cohort that make broad statements like; “the multiculturalism project has failed etc.” On this site that sort of statement is regularly made, it’s backed by nothing bar ignorance and racism.

And yet when those dogwhistling about "racism" are probed for debate or positives of this ideology all they can seem to do is fire out vague references to diversity, different cultures(and food) and scream racist! when pushed for specifics. It's almost as if they have none.

Of course they don't. The sure sign it's an ideology is that it can't be questioned at its core. Those who believe in it do so more on faith than the reality of history and today. It must be true, it must, because if it's not... It's more a religious dogma than an argument.

09-07-2020 4:48pm

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

Well, you go on about your migration to Australia and how you have contributed without taking a red penny from your host country. All giving and no taking and how productive you are. No proof of that, really, it's all hearsay.

Well, actually I live in China (although I did live in Australia for two years), but sure, I'll post up some statistics and research to back up my points later. I've little time available right now (or earlier) to track down links.

Chris_Heilong · 09-07-2020 4:58pm

MFPM wrote: »

What on earth is wrong with the quote? Are you suggesting that schools and education shouldn't play a role in discussion on the real lived experiences of children?

White Privilege does not exist, we are all eating a s**t sandwich regardless of race and are doing our best to get through it.

No to theories of unconscious bias, lived experience, man spreading, my truth, cultural appropriation, patriarchy, mis-gendering and the use of words like POC and Cis, none of these belong is schools and are all part of a new cult with Marxist roots and post modernist daydreams, in the same way all of us do not want our children to be under the influence of Scientology most of us with a brain do not want this new woke religion any where near our kids.

enricoh · 09-07-2020 5:06pm

DelaneyIn wrote: »

The statistics back up his point.

Irish in Australia;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/17/ireland-australia-land-of-plenty

Africans in Ireland;

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1107/1009164-esri_migrants/

Those figures are racist Delaney, please delete the post, ta!

Slowyourrole · 09-07-2020 5:19pm

Wibbs wrote: »

And? Hey, maybe what these places need is many more White Europeans? For multicultural diversity and the like. Yeah I didn't think so. The very sentence will have many twitching trying to find the "racism" in it. Diversity only seems to go one way and is very much based on the levels of melanin in the skin. The hundreds of thousands of Poles, Germans, Italians, Spaniards and British living in Ireland get nary a mention. Even Asian folks are low on the totem of what is apparently the correct sort of diversity.

We can only control our own actions. If other countries don't treat our people well because of their religion/race/nationality that doesn't mean we should do the same to their citizens.

MFPM · 09-07-2020 5:54pm

DelaneyIn wrote: »

The statistics back up his point.

Irish in Australia;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/17/ireland-australia-land-of-plenty

Africans in Ireland;

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1107/1009164-esri_migrants/

Any insights into the relatively low level of employment of Africans indicated by those figures?

MFPM · 09-07-2020 6:02pm

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

White Privilege does not exist, we are all eating a s**t sandwich regardless of race and are doing our best to get through it.

No to theories of unconscious bias, lived experience, man spreading, my truth, cultural appropriation, patriarchy, mis-gendering and the use of words like POC and Cis, none of these belong is schools and are all part of a new cult with Marxist roots and post modernist daydreams, in the same way all of us do not want our children to be under the influence of Scientology most of us with a brain do not want this new woke religion any where near our kids.

we are all eating a s**t sandwich regardless of race and are doing our best to get through it.

That post actually indicates the point about white privilege precisely. When is the last time you were told to go back where you came from, when is the last time you had someone do monkey chants at you, when is the last time you were called the 'n' word........it is overwhelmingly people of colour who are subjected to the above.

No to theories of unconscious bias, lived experience, man spreading, my truth, cultural appropriation, patriarchy, mis-gendering and the use of words like POC and Cis, none of these belong is schools and are all part of a new cult with Marxist roots and post modernist daydreams, in the same way all of us do not want our children to be under the influence of Scientology most of us with a brain do not want this new woke religion any where near our kids.

Dear me, you have some issues don't you? You're comparing the educating kids about the structural problems of society with the teaching of Scientology...remember the overwhelming majority of children are taught about Jesus being nailed to a cross, rising from the f@cking dead three days later and all the rest of that stuff but yeah education about racism/sexism and homophobia is the problem.

DelaneyIn · 09-07-2020 6:08pm

MFPM wrote: »

Any insights into the relatively low level of employment of Africans indicated by those figures?

It is not relatively low. The majority of Africans in Ireland don’t work. It is extraordinarily low. Especially considering that they are non EU nationals.

It raises a lot of questions. Why are we allowing so many non EU citizens move here and live off of welfare? It needs to stop.

Kaybaykwah · 09-07-2020 6:10pm

DelaneyIn wrote: »

The statistics back up his point.

Irish in Australia;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/17/ireland-australia-land-of-plenty

Africans in Ireland;

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1107/1009164-esri_migrants/

Yes, but depends if you are talking about hosting people from Africa with few skills, and the unemployment numbers from that, or the fact maybe the qualifications are not enough to justify employment over an Irish born person for an employer. That has been a problem in Quebec in the civil service, a lot of folks are qualified, but don't find their way to employability, because there are some hurdles, and these hurdles are not moving out of the way that fast. In Montreal, more than a third of the population is visble minorities, but civil service jobs are really low percentage, and not moving up fast , in spite of 2nd, 3rd generation educated youth.

Obviously, young Irish immigrants that moved to Aus Can US UK are better educated than many, even European emigrés.

How many African immigrants are there in Ireland, anyways?

Are you really swamped with useless ****?

gw80 · 09-07-2020 6:29pm

MFPM wrote: »

It's not, it's an attempt to help kids understand racism and kids who are never likely to experience it but perhaps due to upbringing may engage in it.

As longs as it's taught in an age appropriate manner, there is nothing wrong with this. Are you suggesting that teaching children about the lived experiences of some of their class mates is not important or that the lived experience of some of their class mates is not important either.

It's utterly absurd that you'd be offended by this.

It's a vile and disgusting statement.
And if you are serious then the rot is well and truly set in.
The word brainwashed comes to mind, and dangerous,

.

Kaybaykwah · 09-07-2020 6:51pm

gw80 wrote: »

It's a vile and disgusting statement.
And if you are serious then the rot is well and truly set in.
The word brainwashed comes to mind, and dangerous,

.

Well, I have to agree with you that that contrived statement is a really appallingly failed construction.

MFPM · 09-07-2020 7:18pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Outside of existing colonies like the US who were built and sustained on immigration - and those "huddled masses" were largely in the past as far as being actively pursued - the majority of Irish emigration was legal. Try just hopping over to the US today without needed skills and see where that gets you. And yes I would deport illegal Irish from the US.

Multiculturalism is most certainly an ideology, overwhelmingly originating in and fostered by nations like the US who ended up multicultural both by design and "mistake" and were suffering the ills of it and sought, hoped to fix things, or at least look like they were doing something by pushing the notion of multicultural "melting pots". The very idea and politic simply wouldn't itself exist if there were no fracture lines along ethnicity and "race".

The idea of multiculturalism wouldn't have even been on the table in Ireland 30 years ago, because we had no numbers to speak of of non native Irish people, whereas our neighbours the UK were rolling it out as a Hail Mary solution because of the crap that was going down with different immigrant populations over there. The second and third generation of people born there whose parents had emigrated to the UK realised they were sold a pup. "British" in passport only in many ways, and yes racism from the native population was a huge part of it. They sought redress in both peaceful and not so peaceful means, just like African Americans had a generation previously and for similar reasons. Just like non natives in France and Germany. Everywhere this multicultural society has been tried has had the exact same issues. Apparently the Irish will do things differently. Travellers are pale faced often ginger haired 100% Irish and yet... How many centuries of ballsology has been played out on this island between two pale faced ethnic groups?

Outside of existing colonies like the US who were built and sustained on immigration - and those "huddled masses" were largely in the past as far as being actively pursued - the majority of Irish emigration was legal. Try just hopping over to the US today without needed skills and see where that gets you. And yes I would deport illegal Irish from the US.

But you accept that the overwhelming majority of Irish migrants historically including the 60s/80s/2010s was economic...fishing out of other people's ponds.

Multiculturalism is most certainly an ideology, overwhelmingly originating in and fostered by nations like the US who ended up multicultural both by design and "mistake" and were suffering the ills of it and sought, hoped to fix things, or at least look like they were doing something by pushing the notion of multicultural "melting pots". The very idea and politic simply wouldn't itself exist if there were no fracture lines along ethnicity and "race".

Multiculturalism is most certainly an ideology,

We'll have to agree to disagree.

The very idea and politic simply wouldn't itself exist if there were no fracture lines along ethnicity and "race".

That's overly simplistic...the 'fractures' are not pre determined, they are fostered and encouraged to deliberately to create division.

I'm still struggling to understand what issue you have people of different ethnicity and culturemixing together in society?

whereas our neighbours the UK were rolling it out as a Hail Mary solution because of the crap that was going down with different immigrant populations over there.

A rather telling statement....I'm always curious about how those who critique 'multiculturalism' always seem to lay the blame at the migrant population.

They sought redress in both peaceful and not so peaceful means, just like African Americans had a generation previously and for similar reasons. Just like non natives in France and Germany. Everywhere this multicultural society has been tried has had the exact same issues.

This is typical of your argument to date, you're actually saying nothing - 'issues' - what issues, and who's to blame why is it the 'non natives' who pay the price of the ire and hateed of those who propagate against multi culturalism?

Everywhere this multicultural society has been tried has had the exact same issues. Apparently the Irish will do things differently. Travellers are pale faced often ginger haired 100% Irish and yet... How many centuries of ballsology has been played out on this island between two pale faced ethnic groups?

No one is arguing that Ireland can or will automatically do things differently but it's clear that thus far the integration of non-Irish people into Irish society has been relatively good (if we ignore the elephant in the room of DP). There are issues undoubtedly, primarily due to the way many of the non-Irish have been 'distributed' around the country. There are also attempts by a few unrepresentative clowns like Gemma/Herman/Torino etc., and their merry crew of bigots who are trying to stir things up. They stand in the same tradition of similar types who whipped up hatred against travellers - the way to combat that nonsense is to stand against it, not to attempt some dishonest historical justification/explanation for it.

MFPM · 09-07-2020 7:22pm

DelaneyIn wrote: »

It is not relatively low. The majority of Africans in Ireland don’t work. It is extraordinarily low. Especially considering that they are non EU nationals.

It raises a lot of questions. Why are we allowing so many non EU citizens move here and live off of welfare? It needs to stop.

The majority of Africans in Ireland don’t work.

'It has found that 16% of Africans living in Ireland are out of work'

Indeed but back to those insights, do you have any?

It needs to stop.

What needs to stop, the low level of employment, I completely agree - we should look at increasing the number who are not working, identify why and then try address it, are you with me?

MFPM · 09-07-2020 7:24pm

gw80 wrote: »

It's a vile and disgusting statement.
And if you are serious then the rot is well and truly set in.
The word brainwashed comes to mind, and dangerous,

.

It's a vile and disgusting statement.

Do tell why - it's easy to throw around nonsense like 'brainwashed' 'rot' etc they're meaningless....try make an argument.

MFPM · 09-07-2020 7:30pm

Mayorga wrote: »

Plenty of non skilled labouring jobs going on sites. Someone should tell all those unemployed africans.

Just 'Africans' or should we go around the unemployed black spots like Ballynanty in Limerick 43% unemployment or Priorswood in Dublin with 36% unemployment or Larchville in Waterford with 37% unemployment - I mean it can't be the 'Africans' taking their jobs can it so what excuse do the unemployed 'natives' have?

Wibbs · 09-07-2020 7:39pm

Slowyourrole wrote: »

We can only control our own actions. If other countries don't treat our people well because of their religion/race/nationality that doesn't mean we should do the same to their citizens.

Again sounds great and is a lofty goal. Sounds great, but show where it has worked. Why are we magically different? How will we avoid the multicultural flashpoints? Education? Hasn't worked so well elsewhere. If anything the fractures between different groups in Europe are getting worse, not better.

MFPM wrote: »

That post actually indicates the point about white privilege precisely. When is the last time you were told to go back where you came from, when is the last time you had someone do monkey chants at you, when is the last time you were called the 'n' word........it is overwhelmingly people of colour who are subjected to the above.

I would agree. Those who look different to the majority are almost always the focus of anti The Other stuff. And your cure for this? Education again? Magic? East Asian folks are also targets for similar and there many are the slurs available and yet they're more likely to be educated and employed and less likely to be involved in criminality and antisocial behaviour. How's that work?

Dear me, you have some issues don't you? You're comparing the educating kids about the structural problems of society with the teaching of Scientology...remember the overwhelming majority of children are taught about Jesus being nailed to a cross, rising from the f@cking dead three days later and all the rest of that stuff but yeah education about racism/sexism and homophobia is the problem.

So we're going for the full hand eh? Cool beans. And again how will this change things as much as you seem to believe? The UK has been trying this for decades. The US ditto. France in that mix too. Yet look at all the BLM protests going on. You'd think it would have settled down now, at least been better for those who look different. And yet in Europe and elsewhere in the western world, which demographic is most likely to be socially deprived, unemployed, subject to suspicion, many generations in, with passports that say they're American, British, French? White people, Yellow people or Black and Brown people?

As for lumping in racism and fear and aggression towards the other with homophobia and sexism. Seems like a good fit on the face of it. However the difference is that Homosexuality has been in and out of favour in different cultures across time, ditto for sexism, but that fear and aggression towards the other is present throughout history and societies. The other was either driven out, conquered, or absorbed wholesale into the dominant group, or did the same to the dominant group. Where multicultural societies worked well enough for the most part it was under hardline, even "right wing" to modern minds dominant imperial rule and even there they always had some pushback, pushback that was almost always met with force. QV China, Rome, The early Caliphate.

MFPM wrote: »

Any insights into the relatively low level of employment of Africans indicated by those figures?

Oh racism is a big part of it. Lack of training and qualifications for available jobs another. There are quite the number of Black African(and Middle Eastern and South Asian) doctors and other medical staff in hospitals throughout the nation. All of whom came here legally. There are no issues with such immigration, but why do we want to import another underclass like the rest of "multicultural" Europe? We have our own local supply thanks.

Wibbs · 09-07-2020 7:40pm

MFPM wrote: »

Just 'Africans' or should we go around the unemployed black spots like Ballynanty in Limerick 43% unemployment or Priorswood in Dublin with 36% unemployment or Larchville in Waterford with 37% unemployment - I mean it can't be the 'Africans' taking their jobs can it so what excuse do the unemployed 'natives' have?

Indeed and like I said above: Why do we want to import another underclass like the rest of "multicultural" Europe? We have our own local supply thanks. Why add to our existing problems by bringing in another and different and going on the rest of multicultural Europe set of seemingly intractable problems.

Wibbs · 09-07-2020 8:20pm

MFPM wrote: »

But you accept that the overwhelming majority of Irish migrants historically including the 60s/80s/2010s was economic...fishing out of other people's ponds.

Yes. When the various European colonies were still fishing for bodies to man their machines and farm their land and later when they closed most of that off because they had their own local supply the Irish and others had to go the legal route, with in demand skills in those countries. But apparently some unskilled men illegally showing up on a dinghy on a Spanish beach and then claiming "asylum" in Ireland is the same thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsRjQDrDnY8

We'll have to agree to disagree.

If it swims like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

That's overly simplistic...the 'fractures' are not pre determined, they are fostered and encouraged to deliberately to create division.

Tell that to many thousands of years of human history. Something people feel loath to regard. Though much of this is down to the Blank Slate theory of mind and culture that garnered much enthusiastic support from the 60's onward and holds much sway today. A pendulum swing from the idea of some rigid biological imperative. Reflected in what the politics of what is understood by Right and Left wing opinion. The former is big into the determinism stuff, the latter the blank slate. The blank slate angle is understandably also more comforting, appealing and more hopeful for that matter as it gives us the impression we can change damn near everything through force of will, from the personal to the societal, if only we can somehow change the "social construct". I see the appeal in it myself tbh, but then the reality of humans and human nature and the long history of examples that show there seem to be limits to what we can change. In ourselves and in the wider world.

I'm still struggling to understand what issue you have people of different ethnicity and culturemixing together in society?

Because the above human history has shown that if cultures are too different or the people look too different to one another, some difference that stands out(doesnt need to be skin colour at all) and there is a demographic tipping point, it has never ended well for someone. Almost always the minority.

A rather telling statement....I'm always curious about how those who critique 'multiculturalism' always seem to lay the blame at the migrant population.

Nothing telling about it at all. You seem to have missed the parts where I have said racism is a huge part of it. Something I have repeatedly stated. Yes that the native population's racism is a massive part of it. I have no problem with baldly stating that as a fact of life in such multicultural setups. That generations of the Other(it hardly matters who, as the result is the same) realise they've been sold a pup in the form of the multicultural melting pot, because they know damned well they tend not to get much of a sup from that same pot.

This is typical of your argument to date, you're actually saying nothing -

Again I ask the flag bearers for this politic what are the advantages? What are the positives? And no "diversity" is not an answer. Neither is "multiculturalism" itself. They're not answers. In the case of Ireland neither is a falling population demographic. And no, not exotic restaurants and food in Tesco.

'issues' - what issues,

Lowering of social trust. Increase of the underclass based around ethnicity. Racism towards the non local. Racism towards the local. Quite simply the more "multicultural" a nation the bigger the problems along multicultural lines, or are you yet another who has missed the worldwide protests against these apparently non issues? Protests that have been going on for many many decades all over the world of multiculturalism.

and who's to blame why is it the 'non natives' who pay the price of the ire and hateed of those who propagate against multi culturalism?

Blame is for the schoolyard, the reality is yes the non natives usually pay the price for the politic of multiculturalism. Again I have never said they didn't and again for the hard of reading out there racism is a helluva lot of it. Not all of it though as individual cultures can do better, sometimes much better than others, even those of the same skin colour. EG UK Indians Hindus and Sikhs are generally more successful than Pakistani Muslims. It's not religion either as other Muslim ethnicities do better. East Asians generally are more educated, better employed and less likely to engage in criminality and antisocial behaviour than the natives. Again answer me this; which demographic is more likely to be at the bottom? White, Black, Yellow?

No one is arguing that Ireland can or will automatically do things differently but it's clear that thus far the integration of non-Irish people into Irish society has been relatively good (if we ignore the elephant in the room of DP)

Historically we've been anything but relatively good. Throughout the 20th century we turned away many actual refugee groups. No hands out for Jews in the run up to WW2(though by god we weren't alone in that). We accepted 500 Hungarians back in the 1950's but gave them little welcome and most left. We had to be publicly pressured by the UN into accepting a handful of Vietnamese "Boat People" back in the day. Any of the other groups before the late 90's were absolutely tiny in number. When there was a vote put to the Irish people to close the unconditional "jus soli" citizenship maternity tourism loophole that had many non EU migrants settling here in the late 90's it was overwhelmingly passed by the same Irish people.

There are issues undoubtedly, primarily due to the way many of the non-Irish have been 'distributed' around the country.

And how non Irish(careful now) will quite naturally want to live near their "own" and over time how that ghettoisation pans out, like it has everywhere else in multicultural Europe(and elsewhere)

There are also attempts by a few unrepresentative clowns like Gemma/Herman/Torino etc., and their merry crew of bigots who are trying to stir things up. They stand in the same tradition of similar types who whipped up hatred against travellers - the way to combat that nonsense is to stand against it, not to attempt some dishonest historical justification/explanation for it.

Again a lofty ideal and wish, but... Look how quickly a certain presidential candidate went from "who dat?" to coming second in the presidential campaign on the back of an anti Traveller statement. I have long been fascinated by those of any stripe who claim to know what is representative of a nation's people. If the same maternity tourism vote was taken in 1999, do you think it would have gone the other way? Do you think it would go the other way in 2050?

What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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